/bant/ - International/Random

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Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 13:27:27 No.6370173 View View Reply Original Report

So I'm having an argument with a friend here, and I'd like to know what /bant/ thinks.

Will the majority of the average civilized county be consisted of atheist pansexuals (or similar types), and whyt?

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 13:28:00 No.6370177 Report

Quoted By: >>6370345

*in about a 100 years or so.

Anonymous

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Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 13:42:40 No.6370251 Report

Quoted By: >>6370282

not if we keep bullying atheists for the fedoras they are
in all seriousness I think the majority of people (outside the internet) see an upside in religion, either as a cultural thing, a social gathering, or a way to engage in easily digestible philosophy
and most people are still heterosexual, and it's in our nature there's no way around that

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 13:49:47 No.6370282 Report

Quoted By: >>6370306

>>6370251
Well, I believe the general population of atheists is on a rise, and people are becoming more skeptical in general. It is a fact that more and more people are shifting their focus towards hard science over faith. I don't think people will actively reject religion, but that it will be rendered irrelevant.
I chose pansexuality exactly because it isn't really about gender or sex in the first place, but rather about dismissing the concept entirely, in favor of personality and such. So it's a little more of a grey area in terms of human nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 13:56:36 No.6370306 Report

Quoted By: >>6370322

>>6370282
Honestly, I don't see how science and faith have much to do with eachother. Apart from a few 'niche' ideas like hardline creationism and shit that actively try to reject scientific principles, the two concepts really shouldn't have to deal with eachother at all. That's why I specifically mentioned all the other things, culture, social, and philosophy. Atheists and scientists aren't the same thing. Scientists say "there is no evidence, so if I'm curious enough I might go looking for it", while atheists say "there is no evidence, therefore I reject it".

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:05:05 No.6370322 Report

Quoted By: >>6370331 >>6370338

>>6370306
I don't think anyone that truly believes in science can follow any of the mainstream religions, that usually require faith in something by default impossible to prove. I used to be a hardcore orthodox for years, and I tried to follow a few other less popular religion after. But what pushed me away was the fact that I had to "just believe" that my religion was the right one. I felt like I was playing cups but I had never seen a pebble being put under a cup in the first place.
I just feel that eventually this will be the natural path for humanity to follow, unless something major happens that proves, or at least hints, otherwise.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:N6aHWakZ Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:05:15 No.6370324 Report

Quoted By: >>6370329

Religions will never disappear, they will just change
Idk about pansexuality, i'm biased
Surely not in 100 years

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:07:39 No.6370329 Report

Quoted By: >>6370366

>>6370324
Ah, but the speed at which information spreads is increasing in unprecedented scales, and so are people's beliefs spreading faster.
Imagine even having this conversation 50 years ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:07:58 No.6370331 Report

Quoted By: >>6370370

>>6370322
Your error lies in the fact that you seem to believe it's impossible to follow a religious belief without taking in the whole package, creation story and all. Many people have faith without caring much about origin story. There's actually a few faiths that don't even really have much of a creation story, except a symbolic one.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:lVcdjLCX Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:08:26 No.6370333 Report

Quoted By: >>6370345 >>6370370

>>6370173
Yes, it will and because of body mods. Bioengineering will be so advanced, many different types of people will exist. All those "xirs" "zhirs" and "pers" will not only be one's imagination: new genders will be functional. But they won't be fertile in the next few thousand (or million) years. This will lead either to civilization downfall or more rapid advancements, and the new era will begin. Once "new people" will win their fight for their rights, human history will take an entirely new turn. I can't even imagine what can happen.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:09:46 No.6370338 Report

Quoted By: >>6370370

>>6370322
And "by default impossible to prove" is specifically a faith you seem to have. Not everyone believes it is unprovable that we do or don't have a creator. That's the whole idea, scientists don't care whether there is or isn't a creator, the only thing they care about is finding evidence, regardless of whether it is for or against.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:lVcdjLCX Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:12:23 No.6370345 Report

Quoted By: >>6370370

>>6370333
>>6370177
Oh, fuck you, you have confused me!
Of course, not. Capitalism might fall during that timeline, and all those atheist pansexuals will be executed.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:N6aHWakZ Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:17:32 No.6370366 Report

Quoted By: >>6370374

>>6370329
Yeah but religion don't always means ignorance
Imo, god exist but you won't find him in a book, he's not some kind of old lad with magic powers or whatev, but rather something related to the laws of physic, an algorithm, something like that

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:18:20 No.6370370 Report

Quoted By: >>6370472 >>6370772

>>6370331
Disregard creationism for a second.
Religion requires you to believe in, well, a god of sorts. And live your life by some set rules.
But what if Islam is the one true religion, over Christianity, or vice versa?
How does one know that by the moment they accept Allah, they do not condemn themselves to hell?
And how does one not see the plot holes and the paradoxes and the ridiculous similarities in all of these scenarios?
>>6370333
I actually believe in a similar scenario. Not only that, but I wait eagerly for the day I see such events.
>>6370338
No one, NO ONE, has, or ever had, any way to PROVE that god exists. It is all faith and nothing more.
>>6370345
The base concept of capitalism is too solid, ancient and stable for it to be completely replaced.
But a great social/economical/political crisis may indeed cause a lot of violence.
For the sake of this scenario, assume this doesn't happen.

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:19:45 No.6370374 Report

Quoted By: >>6370767

>>6370366
I used to believe that too.
I was desperately gripping to this concept, unable to let the idea of a god go.
Shortly after I became an atheist.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:1uYvxsdj Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:19:44 No.6370375 Report

Quoted By:

>>6370173
>Will the majority of the average civilized county be consisted of atheist pansexuals
No, those generally comprise of slightly religious normies. That's how the World rolls, hm?

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:22:01 No.6370472 Report

Quoted By: >>6370801

>>6370370
Why are claiming that a religion requires a god by default?
Why are you limiting "one true religion" to the religions that already exist?
Why are you claiming that just because something hasn't been proven, it never will?
None of these things are necessarily correct.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:N6aHWakZ Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:27:34 No.6370767 Report

Quoted By: >>6370801

>>6370374
For me it's the opposite
I used to be an atheist, then something snapped
But i've never believed in any of the "mainstream" religions, and of course i'm still questioning myself about the true nature of God
Hopefully, imo, science and technology will one day shed some light on the matter
I am pinning my hopes on quantum computers

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:DWiUBaMQ Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:28:29 No.6370772 Report

Quoted By: >>6370801

>>6370370
>For the sake of this scenario, assume this doesn't happen.
Still no. Current system is supported by large masses of people that work for food scraps. Religion is needed to wash their brains out. There are billions of people beyound the poverty line, and this number will increase, until the system finally collapses.

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:35:10 No.6370801 Report

Quoted By: >>6370833 >>6370836 >>6370839 >>6370952

>>6370472
>Why are claiming that a religion requires a god by default?
I would like to know of any religions without gods or other supernatural entities, it sounds like a very interesting subject.
>Why are you limiting "one true religion" to the religions that already exist?
Because most make sure to be very clear on the matter that they are tho only "real" ones. Christianity is one of the most accepting and less violent religions by default, and almost 30% of it's sacred laws are about how you must praise god and only god. The three first ones, I believe.
>Why are you claiming that just because something hasn't been proven, it never will?
I never did. I said that no one proved it before, and no one can now. But I cannot know the future.
>>6370767
But it is obvious that whatever god is supposedly out there doesn't want their presence to be proved, or they would have done it by now.
If a god is detected/proven by man, then is it really a god? Or is it just an extremely powerful entity, that may or may not have created the world?
>>6370772
In all of human history there has never been a successful system that did not require a "slave" class in any way, shape, or form.
The only way that humans can be freed from this is if they can utilize the loophole of using robots/AI to replace said class.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:1uYvxsdj Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:41:59 No.6370833 Report

Quoted By:

>>6370801
>I would like to know of any religions without gods or other supernatural entities, it sounds like a very interesting subject.
Every cult of personality. Tons of examples in the history. Norks are the prime example today.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:DWiUBaMQ Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:42:22 No.6370836 Report

Quoted By: >>6370926

>>6370801
>In all of human history there has never been a successful system that did not require a "slave" class in any way, shape, or form.
That's not what I mean.
How is capitalism on paper: you have to train/learn during your youth, "slave" away during your adolescence, then retire or get promoted.
How is capitalism in reality: all kinds of fucked up. Some people jump into slavery since birth, not even having time to train. Some people bypass everything completely and live a luxurous life. Most people are put into very harsh artificial conditions, and their purpose is to enable rich people in power stay in power. They can't escape: not only because they are unwilling or afraid, but also because they are brainwashed. Internet breaks these boundaries, and more and more people realize how sad current "capitalism" really is. Especially if they are not from USA or EU.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 14:43:43 No.6370839 Report

Quoted By: >>6370926

>>6370801
>I would like to know of any religions without gods or other supernatural entities, it sounds like a very interesting subject.
Well I'm somewhat of a Taoist. The idea of a god in Taoism is more abstract, instead of having an actual concrete entity influencing things, they are rather defined as "the Way to be followed" and acknowledging that the one true constant in life is change and balance. There are a few gods there, and there are stories about them, but they aren't actually made to be real, they are symbolic for more abstract concepts.
>Because most make sure to be very clear on the matter that they are tho only "real" ones. Christianity is one of the most accepting and less violent religions by default, and almost 30% of it's sacred laws are about how you must praise god and only god. The three first ones, I believe.
Just because those religions claim they are real, doesn't mean we have to accept that for the purpose of this discussion. I agree that the idea of God or Allah is stupid in any other way than symbolic.

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:01:42 No.6370926 Report

Quoted By: >>6371036 >>6371088

>>6370836
The base concept of train/work/retire is one of the only things that has been changed very little over the course of history. Because it works.
But it has been abused due to the need of "slaves". Lower classes have to do the dirty work. So they have to be forced in poverty, because they must NEED the dirty work in order to do it. It used to be farmers. Now it can be a desk job or a blue-collar job or whatnot. The result is the same. Humanity needs tools to replace that. Just as the standards in which we live now would make royalty of 500 BC jealous, in the same way we will all be what would now be considered well-off, because the need for today's shitty jobs will be nonexistent.
Of course there will be inequality. There will be the working humans that must care for and supervise the machines, but the overall quality of life will be massively increased.
>>6370839
Now this is interesting. Can Taoism really be considered a religion? The definition of religion is a very touchy subject with the experts. I think it's more of a philosophy. I have no problem with following a set of rules for self-improvement and general good. The fancy names might be just a remnant of the time and place it was created.
Does Taoism involve anything supernatural, or an afterlife? If you break it down, if it just very useful life advice?
Please note that I do not know much about it, and these are genuine questions, not ironic remarks.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:N6aHWakZ Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:07:06 No.6370952 Report

Quoted By: >>6370983

>>6370801
My idea of god isn't even aware that he exist
Just something that keeps the pieces together, something that snapped, some kind of vessel for "reality"
Idk lad, i really don't know
We should first understand the universe, i just hope to live long to have not all, but some answers
If you think about it, there's no fucking reason for the universe to exist
There must be something more

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:14:43 No.6370983 Report

Quoted By: >>6371113

>>6370952
Mate your god sound like physics to me.
>If you think about it, there's no fucking reason for the universe to exist . There must be something more
And you're going to die never knowing. Greater men than you have spent their lives and resources on this question.
Live your life as best you can and don't be a cunt to people, and any reasonable hypothetical god should let you pass in a good afterlife, unless they're a dick, in which case fuck'em.
If there is nothing more, then at least you've lived a good life.
And remember, there is an infinite amount of parallel universes in which you've taken every choice imaginable.
Mistakes are a fallacy, you just happened to be the version that chose this line of action.
So don't sweat it, and do whatever.

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:33:43 No.6371033 Report

Quoted By: >>6371041

This has been a very stimulating conversation, and I have had a blast.
I'll have to go in about 20 minutes, so if anyone has any final points to make, now is the time.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:34:45 No.6371036 Report

Quoted By: >>6371074

>>6370926
Well I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert, there are people who'll be able to explain it much better than me. It's true I am in fact more in it for the self-improvement rather than the grand view of the universe. But I'll give it a try.

Basically, yes, Taoism should be considered a religion. Taoism is actually henotheistic, which means (in my case) you accept the fact that you do not know about any tangible gods (like agnosticism) but at the same time, you also accept that "some thing or things" might still be out there, driving forces, and you cannot explain them, but humanity might understand and explain them eventually (unlike agnosticism). And this fits in exactly within the concepts of change and self-improvement. Because the universe changes, so humanity changes well. And as humanity changes, so does (our view of) the universe. And you accept that this change is always there, and you should allow this change to change yourself and your beliefs as well. And you can interpret this change as "fate or chaos guiding our way", or as "the fundamental energy in the universe and each of us that drives us forward" or however the fuck you feel most comfortable explaining it to yourself. But the point is, there is still some freedom for yourself to fill in the blanks. But it is still religious in a sense that this exact concept of "change" that binds everything together, is in fact supernatural. Certain specific examples of change can be explained, transforming ideas from the supernatural to the natural over time. But since change is infinitely there, always and everywhere, humanity's search for truth and explanations is never done. So the overarching concept of "change" itself can never be transferred from the supernatural to the natural.

That's about the best I can explain it
Don't quote me too hard on it like I said it's a layman's attempt

Anonymous

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Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:35:50 No.6371041 Report

Quoted By: >>6371074

>>6371033
Sorry it took a while, this shit is actually really, really hard and I am pretty tard

Dr. Grisly

Dr. Grisly ID:T2lVrusG Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:42:15 No.6371074 Report

Quoted By: >>6371085

>>6371036
This actually sounds very, very interesting.
You might be what leads me to follow Taoism. I will definitely investigate further.
>>6371041
Don't worry about it, it's always better to wait 30 minutes for a very good answer, than 5 minutes for a guy calling me fake and gay. I haven't had a good friendly argument like this for some time, especially on 4chan.
Thank you for your time and for being cooperative.
Have a good one, mate.

Anonymous

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Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:44:17 No.6371085 Report

Quoted By:

>>6371074
You too fren
I'm gonna go have a good shitpost to get this serious stuff out of my system

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:DWiUBaMQ Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:44:39 No.6371088 Report

Quoted By:

>>6370926
>Of course there will be inequality. There will be the working humans that must care for and supervise the machines, but the overall quality of life will be massively increased.
Don't you feel how wrong it is? Even how one man can kill another man's family and even thousand more people and get away with it. This is not normal, this is very far from ideal. And humanity needs to strive and try to reach the ideal. Even if blood and destruction is needed to achieve that.

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:N6aHWakZ Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:49:39 No.6371113 Report

Quoted By: >>6371139

>>6370983
>Mate your god sound like physics to me
Exactly, "the Love that moves the sun and the other stars"

Anonymous

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Anonymous ID:GCR052d5 Thu 06 Sep 2018 15:54:16 No.6371139 Report

Quoted By:

>>6371113
that's beautiful man
a bit hippie but still beautiful

Anonymous

Anonymous ID:1uYvxsdj Thu 06 Sep 2018 16:01:39 No.6371169 Report

Quoted By:

Thank you guys from me too. I will properly save this thread.

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