>>2009554one thing I did that I think helped was, after the saddle position is dialed in on all 3 axes, and after a reasonably long ride where you're warmed up and muscles are loose, I activated my core really strongly and took my hands off the bar and moved them around to where it felt like they ought to go. that was my first indication that my stem and bar were completely retarded. just to get an eyeball on what feels right eventually got me towards a reasonable fit.
it's somewhat hard to ride hands free while leaned over like that, though. your balance is more natural sitting upright. but it can be done a few seconds at a time, at least .
