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The Florida East Coast Railway - A Class II that's better run than most Class I's

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 05:37:03 No.1235119 View View Reply Original Report

>Class II, but run better than most Class I
>atc, ctc, and (soon to be) ptc equipped on entire mainline
>all locos equipped with cab signals
>routinely runs freight trains at 60mph
>half their locos run on LNG
>paint them in beautiful colors respectful of their heritage
>doesn't whine about passenger trains on their rails; they actually encourage them
Why is it that one tiny little railroad can do everything 10x better than just about everyone else?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 09:16:59 No.1235160 Report

Quoted By:

>>1235119
Those LNG trains touch me in all the right places.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 15:45:07 No.1235263 Report

Quoted By: >>1236572

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 16:36:42 No.1235280 Report

Quoted By:

PTC is dog shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 16:49:32 No.1235286 Report

Quoted By: >>1235293

Most medium-sized railways are like that because they have to actually compete and can't assume that they will always make enough money. UP doesn't care if they loose ten locomotives and 100 cars of Teslas in an accident, the insurance will pay it out while they have another 10 locomotives move in and haul another 100 cars of Teslas before the old mess is cleaned up. Additionally if there is a labor problem, there's a greater chance the Feds would rule in their favor.

Ditto for Brightline, an investment like that isn't something any major RR would consider because it's not freight and doesn't have the margins they'd want. Investors want fatter dividends instead and think R&D should be done through competitive bidding between contractors not in-house.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 16:59:58 No.1235293 Report

Quoted By: >>1236626

>>1235286
This is a pretty good argument for busting up the Big 4 into smaller carriers

I know it won't happen but the big US railroads + CN are hopelessly bogged down in their own bureaucracy and will never operate as well as the predecessors that made them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 17:02:26 No.1235296 Report

Quoted By: >>1235338

>>1235119
IIRC, they're also in favour of electrification of their lines for passenger service, and they're interested in Siemens Vectron derrivative locos (with dual mode operation) if electrification does take place.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 17:42:39 No.1235321 Report

Quoted By:

>Small railroad running largely in one direction is run completely different from larger transcontinental ones.
No shit, moron.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 17:57:45 No.1235338 Report

Quoted By: >>1235348 >>1235377 >>1236629

>>1235296
>IIRC, they're also in favour of electrification of their lines for passenger service
This is news to me. Did they outright say this? I mean, I think FEC electrification will happen eventually if Brightline's sucessful for a few reasons, but I haven't heard them outright state it.

The reasons I think theres a good chance the FEC will eventually electrify if Brightline succeeds are:
- Passenger service can be more frequent with electrification
- The FEC runs a captive locomotive fleet, so freight interchange isn't an issue
- It'd be a good hedge against buyouts and mergers (the Class I's would waste no time tearing the electrification out)
- The FEC is basically one giant mainline - there aren't many lightly used branches that would have to be electrified or have diesels retained for
- Diesel fuel's going to get more and more expensive, eroding diesel railroads' competitive margins over time

So I think the economics will work out for electrification eventually, but I don't think it will happen any time soon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 18:15:19 No.1235348 Report

Quoted By: >>1235377

>>1235338
>This is news to me. Did they outright say this?
I read somewhere that they were not opposed to electrification, or at the very least were interested in it, should Brightline or Amtrak push for passenger service electrification.
>there aren't many lightly used branches that would have to be electrified or have diesels retained for
That's where a dual mode locomotive like a Siemens Vectron would be an advantage. It would be able to use overhead line when available, and then it can then start up a diesel generator on board to provide power if it needs to leave the mainline to go into a branchline or freight depot for loading and unloading containers.
A locomotive with the traction power of an ACS-64 with the addition of a diesel generator for running off the electrified lines would be very appealing, but perhaps the idea/concept is far too European. Consider that the current GE diesel locomotives have something like 3000 to 4000hp. The ACS-64 has about 6600hp and a much, much higher tractive effort than any other diesel on the rails in the US.
When the German Democratic Republic made an electric locomotive with 7200hp, the main reason was because electricity was much easier to generate than getting diesel for this sort of thing. And yet, this locomotive is still more powerful than any single locomotive in the US, even though the socialist built one is probably half the size.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 19:07:44 No.1235377 Report

Quoted By: >>1235380 >>1235492

>>1235338
>>1235348
That's the benefit with electric traction, there's no need to lug the power source around.

For a dual mode loco, all they need is a 1000-1500hp diesel + generator for low speed movements in sidings and branches that it would be too costly to electrify, like this one:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_88

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Sep 2018 19:26:57 No.1235380 Report

Quoted By: >>1235492

>>1235377
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_88
The Class 88 is owned and operated by Direct Rail Services, the only publically owned rail operator in the UK (besides Northern Ireland Railways).
DRS mostly loans out their locomotives to Train Operating Companies if they have rolling stock failures and need to have temporary replacement stock. DRS also provides locos for rail tours.
However, DRS does not exist for these reasons, DRS exists to haul nuclear waste from nuclear power stations in the UK to Sellafield, the UK's nuclear waste disposal site. The Class 88 is a bi-mode train because it can both use overhead line when available, and then also use the unelectrified lines, such as those running into nuclear power stations so that the nuclear flasks can be loaded and unloaded.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 10 Sep 2018 00:20:43 No.1235492 Report

Quoted By: >>1235504

>>1235377
>>1235380
if anything, they'd probably buy some of these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALP-45DP

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Sep 2018 01:14:30 No.1235504 Report

Quoted By:

>>1235492
Maybe, but I suspect it might be closer to the original European TRAXX design, at least in terms of how the train operates, based on how it functions.
Bombardier already makes the TRAXX Last Mile, which is essentially a 7000hp electric locomotive with an onboard diesel generator and fuel tank that's just about powerful enough to take a trainset from an electrified mainline to an unelectrified siding or freight yard. Think of it a bit like the opposite of the General Electric Genesis, which is only designed to operate short distances on third rail, but long distances on diesel.

There are a lot of European bi-mode operation locomotives which would suit a lot of US rail electrification programmes. Plus, the large loading gauge of the US doesn't stop electrification. You can suspend the catenary wire high enough for the double stack container cars to fit underneath. I think Pennsylvania already has this around Philadelphia, and US pantographs are already incredibly tall, probably twice as tall as European ones.

I honestly would love to see the US and Canada electrify more lines and learn a lot from European designs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 15:56:00 No.1236053 Report

Quoted By: >>1236063

>Idiots talking about electrification not knowing that the transmission losses put electric locomotives on par with diesel electrics in terms of efficiency of energy, yet electrification has MASSIVE capital costs in an industry that already has huge capital requirments.
There's no point to electrify unless the government is writing the check for it(as was the case in Europe and Japan and California) or you have serious operational constraints like fume mitigation in tunnels(as is the case in electrified areas of the US Northeast).

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 16:16:23 No.1236063 Report

Quoted By: >>1236069

>>1236053
The capital costs might end up being cheaper than diesel costs or even internal combusion engine maintainance soon enough.
Plus, the other capital costs are that what would maybe need 2-3 diesel locomotives might only need 1 electric locomotive. Plus, transmission losses are minimal with high frequency AC systems.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 16:38:26 No.1236069 Report

Quoted By: >>1236076 >>1236083

>>1236063
>Hasn't actually done the research learned that modern diesel electrics really are as energy efficient as a modern power plant with line losses included.
>Thinks spending billions on catenary, substations, and new engines is cost effective when diesel locomotives cost less than $3 million a pop and last for decades.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 16:43:27 No.1236076 Report

Quoted By: >>1236081

>>1236069
It doesn't make sense at current diesel costs, yes. But when they go up in the future? Then you'll see some movement.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 17:07:39 No.1236081 Report

Quoted By: >>1236086

>>1236076
>Doesn't know that railroads simply add a fuel surcharge to shippers, like your electric company, to insulate themselves from fuel costs.
There is ZERO pressure for railroads to electrify. Even at the current price of offroad diesel being roughly $2/gallon, and a train being about to travel roughly 1500 miles before refueling its two 5,000 gallon tanks and the railroad charging about $2 per mile per car depending on load/empty/hazmat and they'd still be making bank(that's not even including switching, storage fees, and those fuel surcharges that get stupid expensive quickly).

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 17:17:12 No.1236083 Report

Quoted By: >>1236097

>>1236069
1 electric locomotive (assuming it will cost similarly to the Siemens Vectron) will cost about €5 Million (€1 is approx $1.15)
1 locomotive can do the same job of 3 diesel locomotives.
Plus, efficiency is not the primary deciding factor, it's going to be cost, and as soon as it becomes clear that diesel costs will rise considerably, it might become clear too late to the operating companies that the capital costs of catenary and substations might be cheaper than the year long diesel costs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 17:19:59 No.1236086 Report

Quoted By: >>1236095

>>1236081
Please. Doesn't matter how much cushion they've got. Once the current oil glut is over, prices will continue to go up. It make take 5 years, or it may take 50, but we're gonna hit $100 a barrel again eventually.

For freight, LNG might do it. The economics for LNG conversion are much less steep than full-scale electrification - that's the entire reason railroads have looked into it - but I don't think you realize why the FEC's a special case here.

The FEC will only electrify if Brightline needs to electrify, and unlike freight, there are very good reasons to electrify passenger service. If Brightline electrifies, that means 80% of the FEC corridor will be under wire. In that case they'd be well-served to split the difference with Brightline and take advantage of the lower operating costs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 17:38:59 No.1236095 Report

Quoted By: >>1236630

>>1236086
Plus, if the current Federal administration is truly commited to this whole infrastructure thing, they could put out some tax cuts and other tax incentives to electrify trainlines if the stuff is made in the US (which doesn't exclude the possibility of Japanese or German designed systems from being made in the US).

Honestly, I think electrification could be a genuine option for the US, at least for some of the highest traffic lines connecting major urban centres with each other. All it needs is the political will to incentivise it and the and companies to realise that diesel won't be cheap forever (especially if a trade war really picks up and starts affecting fuel prices).

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 17:39:59 No.1236097 Report

Quoted By: >>1236100 >>1236108

>>1236083
>Using one locomotive and experiencing a failure.
There are a whole of very good reasons that diesel electrics are king of the freight world, scalable, redundant, efficient, acquisition cost, and flexibility are just a few reasons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 17:47:47 No.1236100 Report

Quoted By: >>1236147

>>1236097
>implying that only diesels can be reliable locomotives
Did you know that the FEC doesn't even run pure diesels anymore? They're the only railroad that converted their fleet to LNG.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 18:12:43 No.1236108 Report

Quoted By:

>>1236097
Actually, electtric locomotives are far, far more reliable than diesel or any other kind of internal combustion engine driven locomotive. Most modern electric locomotives have gone to solid state thyristors, transformers and other electric equipment. The only moving parts are the motors/axles and air cooling systems.
Plus, electric locomotives are also just as scalable. Electric locomotives have been known to be able to work in multiples, plus the addition of other factors means that electric locomotives are probably far more flexible, as seen in Europe, where the same locomotives serve frieght, local commuter rail and long distance rail. I suppose European flexibility is more being able to use the same locomotive for everything, but that doesn't stop dedicated high powered frieght locomotives like the Deutsche Bahn BR 155 which was built between 1977 and 1984 in the socialist German Democratic Republic and have unrivaled tractive effort and power ratings, with only some Siemens locomotives coming close.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 19:44:14 No.1236147 Report

Quoted By: >>1236172

Can yall shut up about electrification? It's questionable if it will ever happen for small projects. It's not going to be coast-to-coast in our lifetimes or your kid's lifetimes

>>1236100
>They're the only railroad that converted their fleet to LNG.
Wonder how much of a tax credit they got to do that

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 21:05:53 No.1236172 Report

Quoted By: >>1236173

>>1236147

Don't think they got much of a tax credit, or any at all. From what I've heard, the conversion was a way for Fortress to hedge their bets. Not only did they own a nearby LNG plant, but the LNG helps insulate the railroad from diesel prices.

When Fortress spun off the railway to Groupo de Mexico, they saw no need to change it. GDM seems pretty content to leave things be.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 21:12:54 No.1236173 Report

Quoted By: >>1236188

>>1236172
>Not only did they own a nearby LNG plant, but the LNG helps insulate the railroad from diesel prices.
That makes more sense. But LNG prices are subject to increase too. FEC is lucky in that they are near ports that can presumably offload LNG from tankers. I don't think it would make sense for larger carriers to consider LNG, though.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 11 Sep 2018 21:56:47 No.1236188 Report

Quoted By: >>1236388

>>1236173
Well the locomotives don't run 100% on LNG. The FEC bought GE Nextfuel retrofit kits and installed them on their fleet. The FEC's press release states that there's an 80-20 LNG-diesel mix. I believe that's the reason you'll see many of their trains hauling those tank tenders around. However, according to GE's website, the LNG substitution is optional, meaning that the locomotives can still run on 100% diesel fuel.

So the idea seems to be that since FEC trains can use both, they can just adjust the mixture depending on how expensive the fuels are. If LNG prices are high, they use more diesel. If diesel prices are high, they use more LNG.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 12 Sep 2018 12:18:21 No.1236388 Report

Quoted By: >>1236408

>>1236188

How flexible is that? Can they go 100% LNG and keep minimal diesel in the slung tank to cover strange events?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 12 Sep 2018 14:14:24 No.1236408 Report

Quoted By:

>>1236388
No, the max mix is 80-20 LNG to diesel because without a little bit of diesel fuel the fuel in the engine cylinders won't ignite under pressure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 12 Sep 2018 20:43:24 No.1236572 Report

Quoted By:

>>1235263
Ok this is epic

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 13 Sep 2018 01:05:41 No.1236626 Report

Quoted By: >>1236658

>>1235293
This has been elaborated at length several times, the consolidation of the Fallen Flags into the current Class 1's made the US railroad industry *less* efficient not more. The best example of this is the UP-SP merger in the 90's that led to huge portions of profitable track from the Southern Pacific being abandoned for more or less no reason other than bureaucracy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 13 Sep 2018 01:12:38 No.1236629 Report

Quoted By:

>>1235338
It's all about investment schedules. The reason that Brightline is even a thing is because they were going to have to upgrade the tracks anyways and even if it's not outright profitable from ticket sales the real estate investments would still make them buckets of money, combined with the fact it was a loss leader for the increase in freight traffic.

People aren't looking at the big picture, the faster passenger trains are (at worst) just a loss leader to minimize the cost of upgrading their tracks for greater freight capacity. The FEC is also dumping hundreds of millions into their freight in the Port of Miami because the Port is being upgraded and freight traffic is booming.

Electrification *might* be the thing that makes sense, but at the same time it's very expensive and the train volumes just don't justify it currently. I think that the FEC is first going to focus on investing to get themselves to Tampa so they have a solid freight link between all 4 major cities in Florida. My guess is they're going to expand Brightline to Jacksonville after that.

From there? Who knows. It's possible they're going to start buying out CSX track (since their new CEO seems to be attempting to sell anything that isn't bolted down for some quick cash while running the thing into the ground) and expanding into the rest of the South. But maybe not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 13 Sep 2018 01:15:44 No.1236630 Report

Quoted By: >>1236643

>>1236095
Electrification shills really are the most curious creature on this board.

Electrification isn't economically sensible in the US currently and probably won't be for the foreseeable future. The railroads right now have 70 years of deferred maintainence to make up, plus reactivating thousands of miles of abandoned track. They're not going to waste billions electrifying until they start hitting limits on the above two things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 13 Sep 2018 02:28:17 No.1236643 Report

Quoted By:

>>1236630
But the FEC is well-maintained and still has its most valuable real estate - it never sold it off.

Not saying electrification makes economic sense here, just that the FEC is neither your typical Class I or Class II. It's unique.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 13 Sep 2018 02:47:53 No.1236658 Report

Quoted By:

>>1236626
see
>>1236035

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