/n/ - Transportation » Thread #1375288

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Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 17:30:02 No.1375288 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>1375291 >>1375297 >>1375303 >>1375663 >>1382116

How difficult/expensive is it to modify steam locomotives with a modern braking system so they don't have to be constantly pulling a diesel everywhere?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 17:34:07 No.1375291 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375288
T1 Trust better take notes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 17:40:53 No.1375297 Report

Quoted By: >>1375303

>>1375288
Do they need a diesel for dynamics, PTC, or both?

If it's just dynamics they don't need a diesel, straight air is fine but constantly running air compressors on a steam engine that you can't find parts for anymore becomes a problem at some point.

If it's for PTC, no idea

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 17:43:14 No.1375298 Report

Quoted By: >>1375314 >>1375500 >>1375648 >>1375736 >>1385824

Why not a steam hybrid locomotive? Use the steam boiler to power a generator (steadier operation also makes things easier), use the electricity to power the wheels or charge batteries, use regenerative braking, take power from the batteries when the generator output isn't enough.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 17:48:41 No.1375302 Report

Quoted By:

The diesel is probably also a good idea to have there for when the steam engine fucks up and has to be pulled off the main line onto a siding

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 17:49:26 No.1375303 Report

Quoted By: >>1375314 >>1375317

>>1375297
It's for PTC and (((insurance))) purposes. The air compressors aren't that big of a deal since they always have a tool car with a lathe and drill press and shit to make any repairs like that.
>>1375288
The AT&SF 2926 group in Albuquerque put 26-L brakes on it instead of the old style it did have.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1565051847975.png, 15KiB, 644x800

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 18:02:40 No.1375314 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375298
>Why not a steam hybrid locomotive?
Pic related

>>1375303
>It's for PTC and (((insurance))) purposes.
I think
PTC could be worked around but if it's for insurance there's probably no alternative except self-insuring, and that's not going to happen

> they always have a tool car with a lathe and drill press and shit to make any repairs like that
If you need to machine a new part it could take the better part of a day, which is probably another reason why a diesel is in the consist

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 18:03:53 No.1375317 Report

Quoted By: >>1375318

>>1375303
>The AT&SF 2926 group in Albuquerque put 26-L brakes on it instead of the old style it did have.
Didn't they also have to do some mod that cuts off the fuel supply in certain situations?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 13 Aug 2019 18:06:02 No.1375318 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375317
I know they have a manual shut off valve for the oil supply on the tender right by the sand bin. I don't know if this was a mod or not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 01:00:07 No.1375500 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375298
So a steam turbine locomotive. A concept proven to not work. A concept that will never work with steam

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO l21-2513503.jpg, 186KiB, 1049x699

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 04:14:45 No.1375648 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375298
pretty much how modern electric rail works
>nuclear rods heat hard water,
>hard water heats water turns to steam
>steam turns turbines & make electricity
>electricity powers trolley lines
>train goes

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 04:29:39 No.1375663 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375288
It's not necessary at all. You can use a manual lapping brake valve with modern brakes. It's exactly what you do when you bottle the air and crack the cock to draw them down a bit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 09:18:51 No.1375736 Report

Quoted By: >>1379688

>>1375298
>Steam hybrid
That’s not going to work
Steam locomotives have abysmal thermal efficiency anyway, adding another conversion step will just reduce it further.
Same thing with hybrid cars being slower, heavier and less efficient than either a pure electric or pure gas car.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 11:26:56 No.1375764 Report

Quoted By: >>1375770 >>1378150

Can you put a slight amount of steam into the cylinders in the opposite direction of travel to brake or is that way too hard on the components?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 11:58:52 No.1375770 Report

Quoted By: >>1375808

>>1375764
No, that's possible.
I'm pretty sure the santa fe trialled a system that used saturated steam in this way, acting as both a brake and a cooling system for the cylinders.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Aug 2019 13:57:40 No.1375808 Report

Quoted By: >>1378662

>>1375770
Rio grande tried it too. I can't remember the name, though it was a funny one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 19 Aug 2019 09:16:57 No.1378150 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375764

Pretty sure that's how they used to do it in Stephenson's Rocket/Planet days. But then, they barely travelled over 20mph and were a lot lighter.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO oberjößnitz_23-04-16.jpg, 144KiB, 1200x779

Anonymous Mon 19 Aug 2019 14:28:03 No.1378255 Report

Quoted By:

post non-virgin steam trains

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Aug 2019 07:09:11 No.1378662 Report

Quoted By: >>1378974 >>1381037

>>1375808

It's called a water brake, used them once in trail. They work ok if you have a good crew.

Diseasels are NOT required to operate a steam Loco in the Modern world. A lot of people do it for reasons I personally find flat out false. You don't need em as a backup if you properly maintain your loco. Can anyone tell me how many times a diesel actually pulled a broke down steam on the mainline? You don't need them for ptc, see UPs exemption. The only argument is there isn't fueling facilities around anymore and a diesel can stretch a tender out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Aug 2019 07:58:17 No.1378666 Report

Quoted By:

Throw a traction motor or two on non drive axles. Have them run as generation and power linear eddy current brakes.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 20 Aug 2019 08:20:00 No.1378670 Report

Quoted By:

steam still works fine today, with original technology an no modifications

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Aug 2019 20:16:20 No.1378974 Report

Quoted By: >>1379715

>>1378662
>>1378662
>You don't need em as a backup if you properly maintain your loco.
Yes they do

>Can anyone tell me how many times a diesel actually pulled a broke down steam on the mainline?
Probably not since such information is privy to carriers and no one else. But it has happened. I think the ideal alternative would be to run light engines a few miles ahead of the steam excursion, that way they'll be nearby in case they're needed but won't be in the train itself (they're already paying for a crew for the diesel when its trialing the steam engine)

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Aug 2019 08:45:56 No.1379688 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375736
Whole point of the Prius type hybrids is to balance out the deficiencies of ICE's mainly being very poor acceleration fuel efficiency as well as literally wasting fuel idling in traffic

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Aug 2019 09:34:11 No.1379715 Report

Quoted By: >>1379835 >>1379938

>>1378974

Take the UP 800's. One of the best designed Northerns. The had an availability rate somewhere around 94% at the time of day to day operations, piling on 15k a month I believe. That's a better rate than a modern T4 diesel. If you maintain them properly, they do not break down nearby as much as people think, steam is very forgiving. Too many modern day operations cheap out on their maintenance, or do not have the depth of knowledge, and it shows in their availability rate. The old adage we've always done it this way is heard a lot at these operations.

Anytime a steam engine goes out it has 100's if not 1000's of cameras pointed at them. If it broke down, it would be noticeable. Blue Peter, SP 18, ect. Comes to mind.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Aug 2019 17:13:06 No.1379835 Report

Quoted By:

>>1379715
This is pure delusion

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Aug 2019 21:23:58 No.1379938 Report

Quoted By:

>>1379715
>94% availability
Do you have a source on that? Sounds high for any steam locomotive, even the NYC Niagaras that were used almost non-stop probably didn't reach that level of use.
Steam engines are mollycoddled now and spend a good chunk of each year in maintenance because they are so rare and expensive to fix if something does go seriously wrong.
However, a steam locomotive made with all modern techniques (unlikely to be made) could get as good if not lower maintenance costs than a diesel

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Aug 2019 13:36:33 No.1380323 Report

Quoted By:

god damn that's a beautiful locomotive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Aug 2019 01:32:11 No.1381037 Report

Quoted By:

>>1378662
back in 2015 an Australian steam excursion was being pulled by steam locomotive 6029. They werent pulling passengers at the time and were moving between cities so the engine was in light steam being pulled along by the heritage diesel units. One of the diesel units failed and the garratt had to be very quickly resteamed and it pulled the train to the next city

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 27 Aug 2019 07:30:27 No.1382116 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375288

I honestly have always thought that the best compromise would be to have either a B unit or modifying a diesel locomotive to bear resemblance to a piece of rolling stock such as a baggage car.

Gears !MT5GearsOc

Gears !MT5GearsOc Wed 04 Sep 2019 19:04:00 No.1385824 Report

Quoted By:

>>1375298
for a steam turbine to reach good efficiency, it has to relax steam as much as possible
But that means that when running in part load, there will be condensation. So a really efficient turbine can't run in part-load and one that can will have a horrible efficieny.
You could use a huge battery to buffer out accelerations and braking to avoid transient operation, but still, the turbine would have a very limited operating range with both, reliability and efficience.

Frankly, a diesel will probably have a better efficiency with better performance, reliability and cost.

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