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What was the point in the BR standards?

Anonymous Tue 06 Oct 2020 16:32:56 No.1556947 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>1557646 >>1557739 >>1558333 >>1558448 >>1558484 >>1560748

British rail really created a new fleet of the best steam locomotives known to man (and the 3MT's) and promptly went with diesel instead

Why?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 06 Oct 2020 16:35:32 No.1556948 Report

Quoted By: >>1556955 >>1557646

In large organizations, especially government, the left hand often doesn't know what the right is doing

American locomotives were better though

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 06 Oct 2020 16:49:30 No.1556955 Report

Quoted By: >>1557621 >>1557723 >>1557809

>>1556948
>American was better
Can confirm. This Mike could outdo any Gresley Mike by a long shot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 06 Oct 2020 19:00:15 No.1557004 Report

Quoted By:

State-owned industries in the UK were forced to buy British coal by law. As you may know, British coal was not only more expensive than alternative fuel sources, it was even more expensive than coal from elsewhere. Furthermore, it was constantly at risk from miner's strikes, and keeping stocks of coal to power through them was itself considered provocating the unions.
Diesel, on the other hand, was imported, and not subject to such vagaries.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 00:24:42 No.1557621 Report

Quoted By: >>1557656

>>1556955
dont care

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 01:34:44 No.1557646 Report

Quoted By: >>1557723 >>1557769 >>1557809

>>1556947
Because the Brits nationalized, so all of their locomotive plants were too. Why would BR continue to build Locomotives for the LNER, or the GW when they were going all over the country. It was simple as what the were called, the Standards. They standardized the locomotive types. Simple As

>>1556948
100% This, look at the S100 Yank Tanks

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 02:27:37 No.1557656 Report

Quoted By:

>>1557621
Clearly you do since you replied to me, dumb faggot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 05:47:36 No.1557723 Report

Quoted By:

>>1556955
>>1557646
Truth, American locomotives are god tier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 06:59:04 No.1557739 Report

Quoted By: >>1557783

>>1556947
It was basically political. The original plan was to run steam into the '70s, by which time the whole country could be electrified. Unfortunately politicians in the '60s decided that running steam at a time when most of the rest of the first world had converted to diesel or electric was making Britain look outdated and pushed up the timeline, and there was no way electric was going to be ready by then so BR just went diesel instead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 07:18:58 No.1557747 Report

Quoted By:

weird how people think there is some kind of mandatory tech tree irl. you have to unlock diesel before you can build your electrification research centre!! but if you sell the steam production facility you lose the later locos reeeeee

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 08:55:28 No.1557769 Report

Quoted By: >>1557783

>>1557646
That doesn't explain why BR designed & built all the Standard classes, only to replace them with diesels. Hell the last 9F was built in 1960 and they started to withdraw the class in '64.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 09:46:48 No.1557783 Report

Quoted By: >>1558665

>>1557769
As I said in >>1557739, it was political pressure to eliminate steam way ahead of the planned schedule because steam "looked outdated." They were supposed to go electric but had to get rid of steam a decade ahead of schedule and diesel was the only alternative they could implement on a short timescale.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 08 Oct 2020 11:38:26 No.1557809 Report

Quoted By: >>1558213

>>1556955
>>1557646
american locos were made for the american market and landscape
british locos wouldnt work in america
american locos wouldnt workd in britain

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 11:32:18 No.1558213 Report

Quoted By: >>1558254 >>1558299

>>1557809
>british locos wouldnt work in america
they would work, I just can't imagine very well
I doubt brits made anything for distance when London to Edinburgh is what 400 miles? that barely gets you from the edge of one state to the next in alot of US states
no way a brit loco could hold up coast to coast

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 14:35:07 No.1558254 Report

Quoted By:

>>1558213
Sure it could, it would just need water/fuel stops like every American locomotive happened to need.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 16:48:00 No.1558299 Report

Quoted By:

>>1558213
They would, but they're not ideally suited for it.

Most Brit locomotives were built for a smaller loading gauge and to get the higher power demanded for express duties, require more cylinders to keep within the size limits.

More cylinders = more parts = more maintenance.
Something that most US designs avoided like the plague.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 17:45:23 No.1558333 Report

Quoted By:

>>1556947
For a multitude of reasons. Less moving parts, cheaper maintenance, less crew needed. Not sure about acceleration, but fuel was cheaper too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 21:02:44 No.1558448 Report

Quoted By:

>>1556947
Steam locos might be realy cool, but they are nowhere near as economical as a diesel loco.
Combine that with the issues of a not exactly reliable fuel source, a bad image at the time and the required maintainance and you'll see why steam belongs into a museum.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 22:05:13 No.1558484 Report

Quoted By: >>1558485

>>1556947
Better visibility. Americans tried cab-forward steam locomotive design, but it was complicated.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 22:06:27 No.1558485 Report

Quoted By: >>1558499

>>1558484
>but it was complicated
How?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 22:28:41 No.1558499 Report

Quoted By: >>1558503 >>1558506 >>1559013

>>1558485
The firebox is on the exact opposite end as the tender, so you can imagine the headache that feeding the coal into the firebox from 80 feet away was

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 22:33:21 No.1558503 Report

Quoted By: >>1558506

>>1558499
They used oil to avoid that, which in light of this thread probably wouldn't have been done in Britain

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 09 Oct 2020 22:38:03 No.1558506 Report

Quoted By:

>>1558499
The Southern Pacific loved theirs. Also, what this anon said>>1558503

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 06:37:05 No.1558665 Report

Quoted By: >>1563222

>>1557783

It explains the ridicolous number of unproven diesel classes too - essentially cheaper to do that and risk wastage than to continue paying the cost of maintenance/people for steam, it seems?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 22:03:22 No.1559013 Report

Quoted By: >>1559483

>>1558499
>cab forwards
>Coal
How dare you

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 19:32:04 No.1559483 Report

Quoted By: >>1559501

>>1559013
You have to admit it would have been very impressive if they had figured out a way to get coal from the tender up to the firebox

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 19:49:45 No.1559501 Report

Quoted By: >>1559505

>>1559483
conveyor belt.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 19:51:24 No.1559505 Report

Quoted By: >>1559609 >>1559610

>>1559501
Where?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 12 Oct 2020 00:44:43 No.1559609 Report

Quoted By: >>1559610

>>1559505
So, my idea would be using a standard steam powered screw in the tender that then feeds an enclosed conveyor system from the front of the tender to up and over the smokebox deck and then along the side of the boiler. At the cab, the conveyor will feed a funnel chute down and into the firebox.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 12 Oct 2020 00:46:36 No.1559610 Report

Quoted By:

>>1559505
>>1559609
Oh and for negotiating turns, the tender screw-to-conveyor feed will look like the radiused turn conveyors at airpot baggage claims, only omni-directional instead of just one turn.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 14 Oct 2020 07:03:47 No.1560748 Report

Quoted By: >>1563158

>>1556947
I was actually doing some reading up on this recently. Apparently when Riddles presented to the BR board in about 49/50', coal was significantly less expensive & had better efficiency at high speeds & tractive effort to alternatives then.

The other thing I found was basically there was a disconnect between the BR board & the political wing (now the DFT); what happened was BR planned to electricity All routes by the 1980s & use these new steam engines as a stop-gap until then. They went ahead with the plan (thus making the BR Standard types), but then politicians got involved & fucked everything up. There was the Beaching report obviously & thanks to that even now we haven't electrified routes that could have been 40 years ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 19 Oct 2020 15:54:14 No.1563158 Report

Quoted By:

>>1560748
Pretty much this.

A combination of meddling bureaucrats with no idea what they are doing and corrupt politicians seeing opportunities to make mega money is not a good situation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 19 Oct 2020 17:51:47 No.1563222 Report

Quoted By:

>>1558665
That and it was sort of a panic buying situation as well. They had to replace the whole steam fleet on relatively short notice, without the time to really test various designs and come up with a good standard locomotive, so instead they just kind of had to go to every manufacturer in Britain and ask them to start churning out whatever designs they had, many were even ordered straight into production from the drawing board before prototypes had even been tested because BR was so desperate for locos.

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What was the point in the BR standards?