/n/ - Transportation » Thread #1774884

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Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 22:15:49 No.1774884 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>1774896 >>1774906 >>1774917 >>1774950 >>1775027 >>1775259 >>1775329

>2022
>every single type of rail transit hasn’t been automated
Explain this shit. All trains do is follow a track and speed up/slow down. It is the easiest thing to automate. Yet we are going to have automated cars before widespread adoption on trains. Why? That makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever. It’s cheaper because you don’t have to pay a driver salary and it’s safer because human error would be eliminated. Why do I have to live on a planet with so many stupid people?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 22:51:34 No.1774896 Report

Quoted By: >>1774982 >>1775035

>>1774884
Safety regulations. Even fully automated trains in countries like Japan are legally required to have a train driver in the cabin

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:03:49 No.1774906 Report

Quoted By: >>1774922 >>1774929 >>1775027

>>1774884
Same reason why we have pilots

Not every situation can be accounted for in a program, and having a person on the plane/train who can diagnose and physically troubleshoot (and take control if necessary) is still preferable.

Automated passenger transport is probably the future for a number of transit systems, but those are the easy ones to automate in the first place. Running actual trains, especially freight trains, isn't as simple as "speed up/slow down."

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:19:01 No.1774917 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774884
Fuck off, schlomo. Take your kvetching and shove it up your arse.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:24:11 No.1774922 Report

Quoted By: >>1774924 >>1774934 >>1775027

>>1774906
Pilots are there for takeoff and landing. Trains already have automated speed controls at stations so they pull up at exactly the same place every time. Having train engineers in the current year makes no logical sense. You could even go farther and add the automated car tech to trains like LiDAR. Automation would update every single train on the line with telemetry data.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:27:15 No.1774924 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774922
Shut the fuck up

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:27:55 No.1774925 Report

Quoted By:

Once again /n/ proves it’s literally dumber than /x/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:35:54 No.1774929 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774906
>Running actual trains isn't as simple as "speed up/slow down."
yeah, it is "speed up/slow down except also mind the other trains using the same rails except that's not your job either so just speed up/slow down"

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:46:10 No.1774933 Report

Quoted By: >>1774935

>we need humans in case something falls on the track
With thermal range finding technology, automated trains would be able to see approaching animals or people from a farther distance than a driver could and take appropriate action. It’s straight up safer to automate trains than it is to use humans. This tech has been around for decades.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:46:39 No.1774934 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774922
>Pilots are there for takeoff and landing
No

>Trains already have automated speed controls at stations
Yeah, some systems do, but it's not universal. And there are a number of different manufacturers of such systems, and they may or may not be compatible with other trains and automation systems. Chances are against it. But again, people movers are one of the easiest forms of rail transportation to automate.

>Having train engineers in the current year makes no logical sense.
>You could even go farther and add the automated car tech
No

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Mar 2022 23:47:58 No.1774935 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774933
>automated trains would be able to see approaching animals
Who gives a fuck we don't even slow down for that shit in the US

>This tech has been around for decades.
Where?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 00:20:33 No.1774943 Report

Quoted By: >>1774952 >>1774980

It's not like it hasn't already been considered, anon. Railway companies all over the world would LOVE to bin off the heavily unionised drivers, the savings would be huge. Automated light rail is already commonplace, the problem is when you move on to the mainline. There are simply too many things outside the scope of an automated system that the Driver has to consider and constantly be alert for. I'm pretty sure systems have been tested akin to that of an airline pilot whereby the train operates automatically and the driver sits there just in case something goes wrong, but it's completely unrealistic and potentially dangerous to expect someone not actively engaging in controlling the vehicle to remain alert for the duration of their shift without actually doing anything. You might aswell just let driver actually drive the train if he has to be there anyway, there's just no point in automating it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 00:56:37 No.1774950 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774884
>every single type of rail transit hasn't been automated
what?
automated trains already exist in non-third world countries lmao

as an example, every metro line in Singapore is automated, and only two (North-South and East-West) have drivers (which is a holdover from when they weren't automated)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 01:04:07 No.1774952 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774943
yeah the thing about automation is it's only really feasible if you have full grade separation so it's just metro, light rail, people movers, monorail, etc that can be automated

then again, to be fair, it's not like a train, even with driver, can avoid most collisions with objects on the track anyway, so maybe OP is right with regard to adding sensors on the front of trains or trackside sensors at crossings

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 01:55:28 No.1774980 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774943
>engineer texting at wheel
>causes accident
Yeah they really are useful people aren’t they. Would be a shame if computers took their jobs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 01:58:59 No.1774982 Report

Quoted By: >>1774992

>>1774896
the reason is a lot of japanese stations don't have platform screen doors so the driver's duties include checking the platform is clear of people.

just install more PSDs and make sure your line is grade separated, and you're good to go

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 02:34:50 No.1774992 Report

Quoted By: >>1775000

>>1774982
This could also be accomplished with better platform design

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 02:42:19 No.1775000 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774992
how would you design a platform to ensure people aren't stupid and jump onto the tracks? easier to just install screen doors

of course i should also note that in Singapore the AGT light rail systems don't actually have screen doors, yet they still keep working fine, so it's not a must-have

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 02:55:36 No.1775008 Report

Quoted By: >>1775016

Labor is a minor expense for raiilroads. Its just the last one they haven't cut to the bare minimum.

Us class 1s don't maintain their shit well enough to go without crew. Ptc, leader, trip optimizer, etc are kind of shit programs and not suited to crewless operations. Never kind they're based on more reasonable sized trains of yore. Instead of today's schlomo approved 3 mile long 40k ton monsters. They can't even run an 80 auto rack train properly and keep pulling them apart. Ptc wants to slam on the brakes too often.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 03:18:20 No.1775016 Report

Quoted By: >>1775018 >>1775033

>>1775008
>Labor is a minor expense for raiilroads.
It's one of their larger expenses. The largest, on some railroads.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 03:21:02 No.1775018 Report

Quoted By: >>1775027

>>1775016
to be fair US freight railways probably can't be automated easily because of all the yards having manual points and also a lot of the lines being unprotected and at-grade

automated trains would either die when attacked and derailed by looters, or they'd kill the looters because they didn't know they were there
second one would be preferable, to be honest

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 03:46:45 No.1775027 Report

Quoted By: >>1775029 >>1775032 >>1775076 >>1775084

>>1774884
>. Yet we are going to have automated cars before widespread adoption on trains
Do you really think cars would be automated before trains?
Automated trains are hard to design and in most cases requires tracks to be inaccessible by general public.
In my shithole only the newest subway line has 100% automatic trains.
>it’s safer because human error would be eliminated
you add a glitched electronics error tho.
>Why do I have to live on a planet with so many stupid people?
I don't know, it is like people are bred in such way "free market" will pick up shittiest option possible.
>>1774922
Pilots are in plane are there because automatics suck. Visual approach landing allows greater throughput for some reason, and most shithole airports don't even have necessary equipment because too expensive.
Then ATC can't tell autopilot to hold on, etc.
>>1774906
>Running actual trains, especially freight trains, isn't as simple as "speed up/slow down."
Automatic can do it better though. Well, except running people over, i mean, braking in case something weird is on track.
>>1775018
>, or they'd kill the looters because they didn't know they were there
That is why we need them AFAP. Looters shouldn't know that you can get car jumper wires and short two rails and confuse the automagic train.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 03:56:19 No.1775029 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775027
>That is why we need them AFAP. Looters shouldn't know that you can get car jumper wires and short two rails and confuse the automagic train.
lmao fair point once they realise signalling can be exploited the jig will be up
just add some nice third-rail electrification to rail routes outside of yards imo, and watch people who step onto the tracks get fried

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 04:09:07 No.1775032 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775027
>automated trains are hard to design
this is just cope

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 04:14:58 No.1775033 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775016
How much of that is traincrew though?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 04:22:48 No.1775035 Report

Quoted By: >>1775038

>>1774896
we have the skytrain here and there's no drivers on those at all

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 04:28:38 No.1775038 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775035
skytrain was actually one of the earlier adopters because at the time using linear motors and rubber tyres meant more fine control over acceleration and position, which meant easier automation

nowadays tech is advanced enough to automate steel-wheeled vehicles, in singapore we've had rubber tyred automation since 1999 (bukit panjang line) and steel-wheeled since 2003 (north-east line)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 07:48:19 No.1775076 Report

Quoted By: >>1775260

>>1775027
>Well, except running people over, i mean, braking in case something weird is on track.
>freight trains
>braking
Turn that argument around, automated is better because it can run people over better without feeling bad about it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 08:37:05 No.1775084 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775027
>Automatic can do it better though.
Yeah yeah heard this before

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 09:50:47 No.1775106 Report

Quoted By: >>1775109

it's because the control room requires someone competent in charge of the vehicle travelling at high speed with hundreds of people inside, op. that's it. that's why.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 09:56:40 No.1775109 Report

Quoted By: >>1775112

>>1775106
you generally need someone competent in charge of the control and monitoring and signalling anyway

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 10:03:43 No.1775112 Report

Quoted By: >>1775115 >>1775145

>>1775109
well, yes, but someone still has to also work with the control room to advise the conditions, to ask for the OHLE/3rdrail to be de-energised, confirm where the passengers are being evacuated to (and if there are any injuries, medical conditions, etc in the group). here's an example, timestamped:
>https://youtu.be/eex-vuS5Hak?t=122

and, I'm reading Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber right now, and one of his earliest points is that train drivers:
-have a visible job
-have been around for two centuries
-have an important job (ensuring safe transport of passengers)
-have a job that appears enjoyable on its face (big machine goes fast to lots of places)

...which is part of the reason - inconvenience aside, of course - that people get so insanely spittle-fleck angry when the drivers go on strike for better pay and conditions. because they have it good already! why do THEY get to fight for better pay and conditions when I'VE got to stare at spreadsheets for forty hours a week? we should force them to work at gunpoint then kill them all then replace them with robots, that'll show 'em (turning purple, foaming at the mouth)

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 10:31:19 No.1775115 Report

Quoted By: >>1775117 >>1775145

>>1775112

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 10:39:42 No.1775117 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775115
i'd rather we didn't snipe at each other with gifs. unless they're train gifs i suppose

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 11:20:55 No.1775145 Report

Quoted By: >>1775150

>>1775112
>well, yes, but someone still has to also work with the control room to advise the conditions, to ask for the OHLE/3rdrail to be de-energised, confirm where the passengers are being evacuated to (and if there are any injuries, medical conditions, etc in the group).
yea that's fair, but generally you won't have more than 1 train evacuation at a time so you can afford way less supervising manpower. again, singapore does it and it works
>have a job that appears enjoyable on its face
not for metros lmao
>>1775115
nice unrelated gif, retard

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 11:26:28 No.1775146 Report

Quoted By: >>1775148

Been done decades ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 11:28:38 No.1775148 Report

Quoted By: >>1775160

>>1775146
there's a significant difference between a light metro running on dedicated track and, e.g., automating everything using the WCML

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 11:36:49 No.1775150 Report

Quoted By: >>1775157

>>1775145
>generally you won't have more than 1 train evacuation at a time
ehhhh. i'm reminded of that time like three Eurostar trains broke down in the tunnel in bad weather back in 2009, after snow got into the engines. obviously (you'd hope) it's not going to be a regular thing, but, 'plan for the worst and expect the best' etc.

that was a bad winter, come to think of it, i remember Tornado being on the news for rescuing stranded passengers:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8428097.stm

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 12:01:45 No.1775157 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775150
fair enough, but normally there's a lot of people in the operations center for any modern metro anyway

also haha imagine having snow

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:03:47 No.1775160 Report

Quoted By: >>1775161

>>1775148
Unions.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:13:44 No.1775161 Report

Quoted By: >>1775162 >>1775246

>>1775160
aren't unions literally the only reason the bri'ish underground isn't automated, because for some reason people protest every time they try

they should just slowly upgrade the signalling on all the lines, then one day flip the switch and just tell all the drivers to go home

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:24:10 No.1775162 Report

Quoted By: >>1775163 >>1775531

>>1775161
it's because people think automation means 'pres butan train go [jubilee line noise]', ignoring questions about what happens if/when something goes wrong, and there's a train stranded without power

i had a boss who called that 'shirley thinking'. yeah ok having a few hundred people trapped in the cold darkness not knowing what the fuck is going on is bad, but *surely* someone will know what's gone wrong, where, and what to do to fix it. and how will this someone know all this? [vague mumbling about technology] will they have the tools and power to act? [mumble mumble positive thinking, unions bad therefore]

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:28:48 No.1775163 Report

Quoted By: >>1775164

>>1775162
of course you should have cameras monitoring the line and trains that have battery power
hell give the trains batteries too so they can limp to the next station in the event of a failure
if countries like singapore and malaysia can do it, why can't the UK

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:38:37 No.1775164 Report

Quoted By: >>1775169

>>1775163
i don't know much about singapore and malaysia's metros, so i couldn't comment on their ways and methods, but generally batteries add to the weight and space needed on trains - like the whole reason underground metros generally standardised on multiple units sucking up third-rail power is because it's the most efficient way of getting the most oomph out of the vehicles.

the underground does have battery rescue locos, of course, so they can tow trains that can't move under their own power, but obviously they don't carry passengers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:49:14 No.1775165 Report

Quoted By: >>1775170 >>1778429

flipping the question around a little: why is automation an inherent, default good, compared to the alternative where a human driver sits at the front and sets the train going?

even assuming the technology exists right now and could immediately be installed overnight for free, you'd still need someone somewhere to oversee the trains: so it's not like 'staff salaries' is much of an argument. i'd guess that there's nobody to go on strike and thus disrupt the trains, which moral issues aside, only shifts strike-risk over to the human overseers instead, with the same outcome.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 13:59:21 No.1775169 Report

Quoted By: >>1775182

>>1775164
oh i don't mean like battery-powering the trains lol, i mean adding spare batteries that can get a train, very slowly, back to the nearest station if there's a power-cut, but not much else

JR has it on their N700S high-speed rail, so i'd imagine metro can do it easily

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 14:00:25 No.1775170 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775165
you need less people to oversee the trains, maybe about 30 people should be able to oversee the operation of a line with 100 trains, which is nice considering you'd normally need like 20 people in operations even on a manned system to monitor signalling

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 14:47:29 No.1775182 Report

Quoted By: >>1775183

>>1775169
There's already converted underground trains to battery operation. The only reason it's not done is political.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 14:49:24 No.1775183 Report

Quoted By: >>1775362

>>1775182
i forgot about the D-Train, i guess that's proof that it's possible, but charging times would be a pain, which is why i just suggest a small battery for emergency use only lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 17:16:58 No.1775246 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775161
>communists ruin technical progress
God I hate those bug people

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 17:44:19 No.1775254 Report

Quoted By: >>1775273

It's basically already happened in the USA with PTC and ̶G̶E̶ Wabtec's patented Trip Optimizer® technology.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 17:59:51 No.1775259 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774884
the illusion of jobs would start to crack and they don't want that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 18:04:57 No.1775260 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775076
What if they hire ppl that like to ride things over?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 18:38:52 No.1775273 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775254
Both shit and need baby sitting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 19:39:25 No.1775308 Report

Quoted By: >>1775315 >>1775322

Automation should only occur to increase safety and productivity. Never to replace labor.

It's not a benefit to society to create unemployment. If the machines let you do the same.job in less time. Then you work fewer hours for the same money. Quality of life improves for everyone.

In trains. The Automation is merely a safety back up. Since Trains are inherently dangerous.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 19:58:03 No.1775315 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775308
looking at the graph with the line labelled 'worker productivity' skyrocketing in the last half-century, and the line labelled 'worker wages' being a pathetic little drab at the bottom, and then rubbing my chin thoughtfully

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 20:00:26 No.1775317 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 20:06:14 No.1775322 Report

Quoted By: >>1775326

>>1775308
>90% of all train accidents are human error or negligence

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 20:10:12 No.1775326 Report

Quoted By: >>1775469

>>1775322
i don't understand the point you're making. mind explaining?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 20:18:56 No.1775329 Report

Quoted By:

>>1774884
>more complex it systems
>more prone to failure
The only practical use for computerised systems in trains is as a failsafe for safety. Everything else is just asking for massive breakdowns on a regular basis.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 21:55:03 No.1775362 Report

Quoted By: >>1775376 >>1775390 >>1775469

>>1775183
I agree with you I mean the only reason automation is not done is political. There's no technical roadblocks just the expenditure required.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 22:25:38 No.1775376 Report

Quoted By: >>1775390 >>1775469

>>1775362
>There's no technical roadblocks
whoa, you work on that stuff?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Mar 2022 22:51:20 No.1775390 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775362
>>1775376
samefag

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 02:33:37 No.1775469 Report

Quoted By: >>1775478

>>1775326
the point is that automation makes train operations safer because once you remove a human from the direct decision-making loop they don't have to do anything

you still need humans in a control centre to respond to passenger queries, emergency situations, etc, but it's a lot less work

>>1775362
i think basically every metro system is quietly upgrading their signalling systems to automation-capable so they can switch over in the future

>>1775376
again, it's literally been done before

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 02:44:19 No.1775478 Report

Quoted By: >>1775482

>>1775469
>again, it's literally been done before
If you had read the thread, everyone already knew that. So far the only serious train automation has been done on metros, which operate as relatively captive systems. There isn't technology available now that can automate conventional mainline trains, especially freight trains. It will probably happen in the future, but right now it's wishful thinking.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 02:50:18 No.1775482 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775478
if you meant mainline trains, then i agree, it's a bit too early to move to proper automation
although putting the signalling and sensors into use would still undeniably be a good thing for safety, like OP says, there's definitely mature enough sensor tech to detect obstacles beyond visual range, and that would be very useful even on a manually driven train

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 08:53:50 No.1775531 Report

Quoted By: >>1775549

>>1775162
What an argument... if a train gets stranded without power... are you thinking or are your fingers just typing by themselves?

Please do enlighten us: what does a driver help in that situation? Disembarks and pushes?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 09:22:07 No.1775549 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775531
In an emergency situation, literally everyone on board will be looking for direction or assistance. Passengers will want someone there to know the situation is being handled. The drivers/conductors are clearly the most in-control, informed authority figures in such an instance. Most if not all passengers will listen to their instructions. Without such an authority figure able to directly communicate with riders, it's possible, even probable that panic will set in, or a haphazard and dangerous response will be undertaken by riders.

Yes, you can have a direct communications system with the train's intercom from a base operating center, but that's not nearly as reliable as having an operator on board. Additionally, if the problem is with the train itself, operators know how to diagnose and troubleshoot problems and may be able to resume operation without the need to wait for assistance.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 16:21:13 No.1775755 Report

Quoted By: >>1775788 >>1775818 >>1775931

>we have the ability to automate complex logistics robots on cement
>/n/iggers think this is too hard to do with trains on rails who just have to speed up and slow down
Serious question: how do any of you get dressed in the morning without help?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 17:15:13 No.1775788 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775755
tbf this is a closed system not involving messy and unpredictable humans

same reason i don't think automated cars without a driver will ever be legal soon

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 18:18:39 No.1775818 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775755
>trains on rails who just have to speed up and slow down
being fair, i'm sure you know that it's really a little tricker than that, and that the whatever robots aren't driving trains. that's silly.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 23:06:02 No.1775931 Report

Quoted By: >>1775933 >>1776288

>>1775755
We have automated SOME trains. The really easy ones on captive, closed systems. Everything else increases in complexity from there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 23:11:53 No.1775933 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775931
And passenger trains don't have slack like freight trains. Trip optimizer and leader cannot manage slack.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 23:30:23 No.1775942 Report

Quoted By: >>1775947

Automated trains exist, look at the DLR

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 23:55:55 No.1775947 Report

Quoted By: >>1775948 >>1776244

>>1775942
The question is why aren’t ALL trains automated by now?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Mar 2022 23:58:32 No.1775948 Report

Quoted By:

>>1775947
Read the thread

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 11:58:30 No.1776244 Report

Quoted By: >>1776275

>>1775947
TLDR for the people who are too lazy to read a simple thread:

self-contained, insulated, grade-separated systems (e.g. Singapore MRT, Kuala Lumpur LRT, Vancouver Skytrain, London DLR) can and have already been automated, any metros that aren't automated at this point are all because of shitty politics and unions

mainlines, lines with grade crossings or street running, freight lines haven't been done because there's a higher possibility of situations the computer cannot respond to, upgrading to automation-capable signalling along an entire mainline is expensive, unions and politics again, and also many freightyards have points that can only be switched manually

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 12:43:39 No.1776275 Report

Quoted By: >>1776287 >>1776379

>>1776244
>are all because of shitty politics and unions
well, that and the technology literally does not exist yet outside of retarded Technology Will Save The World futurists' brains

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 12:44:53 No.1776276 Report

Quoted By:

just use a USB stick to copy the firmware from the DLR onto everything, simple as

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 13:09:14 No.1776287 Report

Quoted By: >>1776288 >>1776320

>>1776275
retard, i just cited 4 examples of completely automated metro systems

any properly self-contained and grade-separated metro system should be automated by now

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 13:10:39 No.1776288 Report

Quoted By: >>1776289

>>1776287
>>1775931

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 13:12:14 No.1776289 Report

Quoted By: >>1776293 >>1776294

>>1776288
read my post
>self-contained, insulated, grade-separated systems can and have already been automated, any metros that aren't automated at this point are all because of shitty politics and unions
my POINT is that the easy ones on closed systems can be done and that's basically all well designed metros

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 13:20:29 No.1776293 Report

Quoted By:

>>1776289
read my post
no thanks

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 13:21:46 No.1776294 Report

Quoted By:

>>1776289
>read my post
no thanks

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 14:51:00 No.1776320 Report

Quoted By: >>1776493 >>1776601 >>1776719

>>1776287
>any properly self-contained and grade-separated metro system should be automated by now
Why? And so help me if this is a BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE FUTURE thing

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 15:07:53 No.1776326 Report

Quoted By:

The Australians have an automated iron ore train.

It's in the middle of nowhere. The only thing it saves them is so labor costs and crew change times. It still needs cress at the start and end points, and of course to fix it when it has a problem.

The worst thing it carries is diesel. So when jt was derail on purpose because it wouldn't respond to commands and was moving when it shouldn't. The hazard to the public was minimal.

Now think about an automated train carrying thousands of tons of hazmat through populated areas. It gets a knuckle and a crew has to be summoned to it. Going to be at least an hour for the on call engineer and conductor. Defective triple valves and other issues can cause brakes to release from emergency in less than the rated 4 hours. Now your anhydrous ammonia cars are rolling free through LA. Until they derail and rupture. Killing dozens or more.

Now UP and BNSF have to explain to everyone why they allowed this to happen. The false progressive left will be outraged by the loss of life for a few percentage points of operating ratio. Even the ghouls on the right won't be able to defend it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 17:43:17 No.1776379 Report

Quoted By: >>1776385

>>1776275
>tech doesn’t exist
What’s 1930 like?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 17:55:39 No.1776385 Report

Quoted By: >>1776506

>>1776379
silly me, i forgot that AutoMetro1.0 is just something you download onto a usb stick these days. weird how the goalposts moved from ALL trains should be automated because (mumble mumble mumble), to ALL metros (running on completely grade-separated, self-contained track) should be automated because (mumble mumble)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 22:44:34 No.1776493 Report

Quoted By: >>1776730

>>1776320
because drivers are unreliable and expensive.
they demand high western wages, they get sick, they want paid leave, and they go on strikes.
all of those things lead to delays.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 209AD0A3-AA2F-4A78-B45B-13B7FD54 (...).jpg, 94KiB, 940x529

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 23:05:30 No.1776506 Report

Quoted By: >>1776516

>>1776385
>automatic stop sensors so metros pull up to platform in the exact place every time
How many examples do you need? It’s like arguing with a record turntable

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Mar 2022 23:27:08 No.1776516 Report

Quoted By:

>>1776506
You're simply coping

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 23 Mar 2022 01:24:34 No.1776601 Report

Quoted By: >>1776730

>>1776320
human error causes many accidents
computers can react faster, make less mistakes
and are also cheaper than humans because they don't demand overtime so it makes it easier to run more trains for longer hours

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 23 Mar 2022 06:55:55 No.1776719 Report

Quoted By: >>1776730

>>1776320
>cost effective
>safer
>better scheduling
how many more reasons do you need?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 23 Mar 2022 08:16:47 No.1776730 Report

Quoted By: >>1776749

>>1776493
>>1776601
>>1776719
this is just a list of 'technology is magic and can be instantly applied universally for free' platitudes btw

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 23 Mar 2022 09:50:37 No.1776749 Report

Quoted By: >>1776995

>>1776730
who said that?
nobody is saying that it's easy (or free). it's a process that takes money and time, just like with every other industry we automated.
but in the long run, we would save money. and people would hate public transport slightly less, because of fewer delays

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 23 Mar 2022 18:08:10 No.1776995 Report

Quoted By: >>1777927

>>1776749
>but in the long run, we would save money
really? how long a run? and how much money could we save? i don't know who 'we' is btw

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 25 Mar 2022 16:41:19 No.1777927 Report

Quoted By: >>1777951

>>1776995
Bruh private companies are out here designing vacuum tube transit. I’m pretty sure automating trains would not be outside the realm of possibility

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 25 Mar 2022 17:56:39 No.1777951 Report

Quoted By:

>>1777927
those things arent the same, and it's foolish to think that just because technology X exists that technology Y 'should' exist too. i say this not to piss in your cereal, more to piss on 'it's the FUTURE and technology can be magically applied to solve any problem you can think of, oh the concrete details? lmao it's the future, we have smartphones now' futurism

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 26 Mar 2022 20:05:48 No.1778425 Report

Quoted By:

The reason why is because positive train control (a prerequisite for automation) costs money to install and everyone hates spending time and money on infrastructure even if there's a future payoff.
t. someone who watched Tri-Rail and Brightline not install PTC for years after the deadline.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 26 Mar 2022 20:15:03 No.1778429 Report

Quoted By: >>1778460

>>1775165
It's not an inherent good, but it's good to explore your options. The two options are manned and unmanned, and the latter option hasn't been explored enough yet.
Perhaps someone in the future will find a combination would work: when the driver needs to use the bathroom, he enables autopilot and a simple conductor watches over the autopilot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 26 Mar 2022 21:24:11 No.1778460 Report

Quoted By: >>1778488

>>1778429
>when the driver needs to use the bathroom, he enables autopilot and a simple conductor watches over the autopilot

you understand that in existing automated rail systems, the train driver's job is to operate the train doors, and push the 'drive to the next station' button, right? the train computer does all the calculations with the current passenger-weight and works out where to apply brakes and how hard, so the trains stop within a given variance at stations so the platform edge doors match the train doors and so on. they aren't driven manually, it's done by sensors and wires rather than a human doing it by 'feel'. the driver *can* of course assume direct control but, it's assumed this is either depot shunting, or in case there's an emergency of some kind, like he gets a message to proceed to the next station at walking pace because there's been an accident or something.

my point is that our automated subway train driver will take his rest breaks, eat his lunch, and do a poo at one of the stations on his route with staff facilities: it'll be part of his day's timetable, similar to how HGV drivers have to take rest breaks of X length after Y hours' driving. washrooms aren't needed on board, for staff or travellers, because the facilities are at the stations, a few moments' travel away.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 26 Mar 2022 21:25:12 No.1778462 Report

Quoted By:

so anyway, let's assume this method of operation is copy-pasted into inter-city trains, skipping over the technical details. the driver is doing the exact same job, but instead of two minutes to the next station, it's now thirty. thing is, drivers still aren't allowed to leave the cab with passengers on board, as nobody else on board is legally competent to drive the train. (i guess that, in a dire 'touching cloth' emergency, the driver would get out at a station to use the facilities; timetables have a little breathing space and he can attempt to make up time later.) so, your scenario is to ultimately have two train drivers on board, who will naturally have to be paid train drivers' salaries.

this doesn't blow a hole in the idea of train automation or anything, just that your scenario doesn't work as an 'automation would mean saving money on manpower' thing - as you'd be paying two train drivers to drive each train. there was a fuss in Japan about a similar situation where a driver was naughty and had a conductor take over while he took a toilet break:
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/japan-bullet-trains-hnk-intl/index.html

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 26 Mar 2022 21:30:42 No.1778467 Report

Quoted By:

i'm aware of one forthcoming inter-city rail system that'll have automated 'pres butan tren go whrrrr' operation, and that's the HS2 network in Great Britain. though, as that will be a mixture of dedicated highspeed track and the existing 'classic network', i'm unsure if this will indeed apply to all served stations; or just the stations along the dedicated HS2 track being automated-operation, with 'classic track' worked via a driver-operated throttle and brake.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 26 Mar 2022 22:16:46 No.1778488 Report

Quoted By:

>>1778460
>my point is that our automated subway train driver
I was talking about mainline trains in that post.

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