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Ending Parking Minimums

Anonymous Thu 30 Mar 2023 16:04:44 No.1900846 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>1900906 >>1901020 >>1901208 >>1901249 >>1903096

A few short years ago, the proposal seemed ridiculous, but now all these cities are ending parking requirements. What do you think the effect will be?

I assume American downtowns will get denser and more pedestrian-friendly. I don't think it'll change the 'burbs much, but some cities that were highly suburban and car-oriented (like San Jose) will change significantly.
Atlanta and Nashville could benefit most from ending parking requirements.

https://www.cnu.org/publicsquare/2023/03/23/parking-reform-snowballing

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 30 Mar 2023 19:04:46 No.1900878 Report

Quoted By: >>1900920 >>1901162

I think that the effect will be motorists becoming more creative in their parking habits. The bike lane is plenty wide for a car to fit for a few minutes…

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 30 Mar 2023 21:42:53 No.1900906 Report

Quoted By: >>1900961

>>1900846
>I assume American downtowns will get denser and more pedestrian-friendly. I don't think it'll change the 'burbs much, but some cities that were highly suburban and car-oriented (like San Jose) will change significantly.

Every development still has to be approved by the city, so "no parking minimums" just means no blanket code and every development will be treated differently. Bastrop, Texas (small town/growing bedroom community of Texas) "officially" got rid of parking minimums but the fine print still indicates de facto parking minimums. For example, if you look at the requirements for RV park/lodging facilities as shown below...

https://www.co.bastrop.tx.us/upload/page/0093/docs/2022.09.12%20Court%20Appd%20Lodging-RV%20Park%20Requirements.pdf

...you'll see text like this:
>Each Lodging Development Space shall afford parking and maneuvering space sufficient so that the parking, loading, and the like, of vehicles shall not necessitate the use of any public right-of-way or privately owned property which may abut the Development or the unreasonable use of any interior road.

Realistically, this is more along the lines of "let's take a closer look at the properties instead of treating them all equally" rather than the "get fucked cagie this is cycle town" fantasy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 30 Mar 2023 22:49:00 No.1900920 Report

Quoted By: >>1900931

>>1900878
Most parking motorists don't stop "for a few minutes" at random places unless it's work-related.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 00:15:09 No.1900931 Report

Quoted By: >>1900950

>>1900920
"Most" motorists might not, but the ones that do (Doordash, Amazon, basically all delivery services) do it all the fucking time. Having no parking spaces doesn't make people stop driving, it just makes it a nightmare for everyone to get around.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 03:11:53 No.1900950 Report

Quoted By: >>1900986

>>1900931
>Having no parking spaces doesn't make people stop driving, it just makes it a nightmare for everyone to get around.

by car.

careful. hes learning!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 05:01:24 No.1900961 Report

Quoted By: >>1901080

>>1900906
I thank you for your informative post.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 10:57:33 No.1900986 Report

Quoted By: >>1900989

>>1900950
Yes, thank you for reminding everyone that numbtits are really just sadists who don't care about transportation as long as they're making someone suffer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 11:05:32 No.1900988 Report

Quoted By:

I don't know what it is about the phrase "ending parking minimums" that makes my skin crawl, but I think some of it has to do with the botnet on reddit that I found one time that was half weird horny posting on porn subs typed with one hand by an indian guy, and half posts like the op with some word salad about walkability, they all had different handles but it was clearly run by the same person/organization the way they targeted specific subs with extremely specific "cars bad" spam

Anyway I can't see that phrase anymore without thinking about that wall of incoherent "I want fuck her mother ass with my dik" posts I found behind the urbanism spamming, it was all in gross fetish subs too

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 11:06:41 No.1900989 Report

Quoted By:

>>1900986
numbtits are fine with cars, but only if it benefits them personally

Anonymuos

Anonymuos Fri 31 Mar 2023 15:20:28 No.1901020 Report

Quoted By:

>>1900846
We need parking minimums in Europe, badly.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 20:37:36 No.1901080 Report

Quoted By:

>>1900961
To explain a bit more on this the way that parking minimums worked in the past was basically "x parking area for y square feet of retail space". The problem is that modeling numbers like that isn't the way things shake out in reality. Just because the bus CAN fit 50 people doesn't mean that 50 people are going to ride it at all hours of the day, and just like that, a retail store isn't going to achieve those numbers except in a few situations. A large supermarket is going to need a larger parking lot because it is a high-volume store. A store like At Home (a home decor store chain in the United States) has a skeletal staff and is not going to need a large parking lot that reflects its square footage. Requiring that much parking for a low-volume store puts pressure on the developer, and the idea behind eliminating parking minimums is to promote growth in general and eliminate hurdles since every development is looked over anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 20:43:12 No.1901081 Report

Quoted By:

end mandatory disabled spots

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 31 Mar 2023 23:01:49 No.1901111 Report

Quoted By: >>1901133

Remember that picrel is kind of brainlet we're dealing with...

I think dropping parking minimums and letting "the market" sort things out is great. Particularly since the kind of parking promoted by minimums (large, sprawling lots with minimal capital investment) is directly harmful due to stormwater runoff.
There are more capital-intensive ways to handle parking that could be viable in an open market, but are stymied by the policy-level subsidies to parking (both minimums and street parking). Like car elevators, or dynamic space assignment (assigned parking spaces, but the assignments are made close to the moment they are needed with the assistance of statistical models, and perhaps a neighbourhood auction market to rent "overflow" spaces during surges at one property).
Like, take a look at how airports and their communities address parking. Airports are one of the industries that largely circumvented parking minimums (blurred regulatory authority between levels of government, land assignments made almost a century ago, densification of airports that could never have been foreseen at their founding). But airports have very sophisticated parking infrastructures, often with high leveraging of capital investments. They have shuttle services, "public transit," competing private providers, valet services, tons of secondary businesses involving vehicles that also need their own parking. No, parking at the airport is very rarely free. But it is frequently excellent.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 00:57:06 No.1901133 Report

Quoted By: >>1901192

>>1901111
>Remember that picrel is kind of brainlet we're dealing with...
A mall parking lot is a bad example because it's both the fact that they usually intend to have sprawling land to expand with and when the mall was built it really WAS that popular.
>I think dropping parking minimums and letting "the market" sort things out is great.
No one is doing that. Not Bastrop and definitely not California. Realistically, the banishment of parking minimums doesn't necessarily mean they'll rubberstamp some 300-unit residential building with minimal parking. Every case is examined differently and neighborhood-appropriate decisions will be made.
>Airports are one of the industries that largely circumvented parking minimums (blurred regulatory authority between levels of government, land assignments made almost a century ago, densification of airports that could never have been foreseen at their founding). But airports have very sophisticated parking infrastructures, often with high leveraging of capital investments. They have shuttle services, "public transit," competing private providers, valet services, tons of secondary businesses involving vehicles that also need their own parking. No, parking at the airport is very rarely free. But it is frequently excellent.
Airports are massive and create large exclusion zones when it comes to height, and the noise tends to make other types of development undesirable. This is what allows you to have a hundred acres of surface parking lot just a few miles out and operate a profitable business just on parking. It's really not that applicable to the city as a whole.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 01:08:04 No.1901134 Report

Quoted By:

Ah not so fast. Just because parking minimums aren't being mandated by the city doesn't mean they aren't still happening. Banks usually have baked in parking mandates for loans they give in construction, and usually those bank mandates are far more stringent than the city ones.

Basically it's not enough to just end parking minimums, you have to add parking maximums if you actually want to do anything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 03:40:03 No.1901162 Report

Quoted By:

>>1900878
Good way to lose your mirrors and get all sorts of scratches on that nice paint. Don't even pretend it doesn't happen.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 10:24:07 No.1901192 Report

Quoted By:

>>1901133
Speaking of Malls they can be remade into those walkable towns with small grocery stores, family restaurants etc and be a new area for Trams into the city if done correctly.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 12:22:17 No.1901205 Report

Quoted By:

I don't know how exactly this works in American but I know of some cities here in Europe that require underground parking to be build for new housing developments, which seems to make a lot of sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 12:37:41 No.1901208 Report

Quoted By: >>1901212

>>1900846
I think the people who live outside the city and use cars are the overwhelming bulk of patronage to city businesses, and if they're inconvenienced they'll simply take their business elsewhere and these places without parking will struggle to survive and most will close, creating barren wastelands in the cities that passed these laws.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 12:52:44 No.1901212 Report

Quoted By: >>1901213

>>1901208
>people who live outside the city and use cars are the overwhelming bulk of patronage to city businesses
This is repeatedly shown to be untrue, with the exception of a handful of highly-specialized retail set-ups (e.g. mega malls intended as tourist destinations).
The fact is that most retail is completely interchangeable with similar business, and people go to the option that is closest (via travel time, not necessarily spatially).
In a conurbation, "closest" is often walking distance. There are stores here where the vast majority of traffic is entirely by foot, because there are hundreds of customers in walking distance.
Even bedroom-communities these days are building commercial districts. People living in suburbs like my father haven't gone "downtown" other than for hospital appointments in decade.
A commercial store located proximate to a major transit line might not have the business case for any parking at all. Heck, we have stores inside transit stations themselves that are completely inaccessible other than to farepayers. And I'm not talking hotdog stands; I've seen dry cleaners and sit-down restaurants.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 12:57:54 No.1901213 Report

Quoted By: >>1901223 >>1902983

>>1901212
Heck, we had a pilot project during COVID-19, to give street-facing restaurants the option to convert the roadside parking adjacent their frontage into dining patios. There was massive participation and the pilot has been made permanent.
These business literally valued "more usable business space" over "parking subsidized by the city on public land."

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 14:17:51 No.1901223 Report

Quoted By: >>1901225

>>1901213
>Heck, we had a pilot project during COVID-19, to give street-facing restaurants the option to convert the roadside parking adjacent their frontage into dining patios. There was massive participation and the pilot has been made permanent.
You mean to say that during a time when indoor dining was banned or severely restricted, outdoor seating was utilized? Wow!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 14:34:34 No.1901225 Report

Quoted By: >>1901237

>>1901223
You missed the part where they continue to do it today. This patio season is probably going to be even bigger uptake than the COVID-19 ones, because restaurants aren't dying.
Many businesses downtown do not give a single fuck about parking. You can fucking see it on a map, because they don't have parking lots.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 15:14:22 No.1901237 Report

Quoted By:

>>1901225
Once a city closes a road or parking spots or other infrastructure "temporarily" closes for anything it's very rare that access is restored (bicycle lanes, for instance, are almost NEVER removed short of a complete disaster that everyone hates). Considering the Toronto outdoor dining situation "success" that NJB and others trumpeted (using statistics that were literally nothing alike), I'm not convinced of the long-term success of these businesses. Sounds to me like most of that is anecdotal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Apr 2023 16:34:01 No.1901249 Report

Quoted By:

>>1900846
people will stop going to down town areas and they will become filled with crime and homeless and minorities, like skid row

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 14:49:12 No.1902980 Report

Quoted By:

I predict a lot of cagetrolls will get increasingly butthurt and grasp for straws even more.

Yes, you're going to see less parking get built. Duh.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 14:50:23 No.1902981 Report

Quoted By:

Minimum parking requirements will be remembered as one of the stupidest policies in American history.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 14:52:40 No.1902983 Report

Quoted By: >>1902990

>>1901213
Yep, outdoor dining was made permanent in tons of cities because the parking spaces don't provide much use to the businesses.
There's no evidence to suggest that parking is required for the businesses to survive. That's why so many cities are doing away with parking minimums.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 15:35:12 No.1902990 Report

Quoted By:

>>1902983
I wouldn't say there's "no evidence", but it's true that in already dense areas cutting back on parking and road space doesn't reduce business. Particularly the case of on street parking, the relative benefit there is actually very small. In many cases you could fit maybe 15 cars along a block with some businesses like retail, restaurants and bars. That is generally going to be about 30 people at 2 per car. I live in Houston, and let's take the downtown area with the bars on Main Street. Some stretches of street there have been closed to car traffic, though cross traffic is allowed through so really it isn't fully "pedestrianized" so much as the city is allowing the restaurants and bars to use the street. 11,000 people live in that area, which is a high value area so apartments and condos are expensive. These are definitely people who can spend money easily. Furthermore, that area has a light rail that connects to Midtown, another relatively population dense district, and crosses north. There are literally 10s of thousands of people who can reach those bars and restaurants quite easily without a car, and it is a group of people who have disposable income. So it's just a no brainer, cutting car usage of highly desirable streets and limiting street parking benefits the 10s of thousands of nearby residents who already paid to live near that stuff (so they're likely customers), and who clearly have spending money because they live deep in town. It makes total sense to cater to them and make the area even more pleasant for their use, because they will absolutely funnel into there consistently and spend money, whereas suburbanites are spread out more and travel to many different areas of the city. You can either cater to 30 people from the suburbs, or have more seats for the huge number of people who live in the high rises and mid rises within 1 or 2 square miles. It's just basic math on where your market potential is.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 20:39:55 No.1903041 Report

Quoted By: >>1903044

Downtowns are getting denser and more walkable as a result of the lifting of parking minimums.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 21:17:30 No.1903044 Report

Quoted By:

>>1903041
Of course, it just makes business sense. If you've got high value urban land you build as much high value uses as you can on it. Parking isn't a high value use, it's something that gets enforced by regulations. The only reason that developers and lenders in urban areas with minimum parking exemptions still build excess parking (when they do, since it isn't always the case) is because they're genuinely afraid that whatever urban market they're in is still too underdeveloped for density. As in, you can build a high value townhouse in the ghetto, but people still won't buy it because it's in the ghetto. Similarly, you can have an expensive piece of urban property that you'd like to stack with a mixed use midrise featuring bottom floor retail and some upscale apartments or condos, but you're worried that the surrounding area is so hostile to walking or taking the bus (or rail if it exists at all) that you don't want to risk being the guy that tries to win out by turning would-be parking space into more units. You wish you could, but you're in the ghetto. It is what it is, you've just gotta build to what your circumstances are.

But cities do generally understand this and lift parking minimums in their densest neighborhoods, so there are a lot more developers deeper in the city just keeping minimal parking spaces.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 03:35:33 No.1903096 Report

Quoted By: >>1903103 >>1903136 >>1903148

>>1900846
>What do you think the effect will be?

It's part of the plan to prevent future generations from being able to have a vehicle capable of covering long distances and frequent travels.
Now that everything is ordered online and delivered to your door, goyslop food doesn't even require a drive-through; the government can suck your money to subsidize the delivery of carcinogenic, insulin resistance inducing food straight at your home.
You have literally build your prison, and now you are locking yourselves in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 03:52:34 No.1903103 Report

Quoted By: >>1903173

>>1903096
>prevent future generations from being able to have a vehicle
Or maybe they'll just leave cities and close-in suburbs entirely, and move farther out (Maybe that's the idea?)
>Now that everything is ordered online and delivered to your door
If you can afford the delivery fees and tips

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 05:27:35 No.1903136 Report

Quoted By: >>1903173

>>1903096
>covering long distances and frequent travels
...to buy products at big box retail chains that can afford properties burdened with high parking minimums.

Lets say someone owns a furniture store. It needs far fewer customers than a supermarket to make a profit, and most people don't buy new furniture that often. However, the owner still needs a significant amount of space in order to properly display his products. Why should he be held to the same standard as a higher traffic retailer when it comes to the number of parking spaces per square foot of retail? Not every store has the same business model, and all more parking spaces can do for him is take up space that he could use for something else, like an outdoor display or attractive landscaping.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 07:14:48 No.1903148 Report

Quoted By: >>1903173

>>1903096
>a vehicle capable of covering long distances
Just ride your bike. I bet an average person on an ebike could cover a pretty long distance in one day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 10:49:44 No.1903173 Report

Quoted By: >>1903175 >>1903176

>>1903103
>If you can afford the delivery fees and tips
In the us the poorer you are the more junk food you eat. And junk food is the worst money for value food that you can buy. Usually poop people spend most of their money on useless stuff.

>>1903136
>...to buy products at big box retail chains that can afford properties burdened with high parking minimums.
Man, i agree with you. I live in an Italian city. BUT, even if tomorrow the entire US drops the Zoning policy, the absolute vast majority of people won't know what to do with it. People don't give a damn about decent products offered by decent stores. Take Ikea, a library made out of Billys costs about the same as a basic bookcase made by a carpenter with real wood. Yet, the ENTIRE world will shop at Ikea.
I doubt curing the causes will solve any problem in today's US cities.

>>1903148
>Just ride your bike. I bet an average person on an ebike could cover a pretty long distance in one day.
Yes. Indeed. But there are MANY circumstances where you need more. Especially if you have a family. Try having a pregnant wife or a 6 months old baby. Usually PERSONAL means of transportation fits single PERSON's needs. I have no doubts that the big push for personal mobility is a push to destroy families and prevent people from having kids.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 11:18:22 No.1903175 Report

Quoted By: >>1903222

>>1903173
>a library made out of Billys costs about the same as a basic bookcase made by a carpenter with real wood
I don't believe you but to be fair I haven't been to shitaly, here if I want a capenter to make me a set of bookshelves it's going to run me 10x the cost of a set from ikea

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 11:23:31 No.1903176 Report

Quoted By: >>1903257

>>1903173
>Try having a pregnant wife or a 6 months old baby
I have a bunch of friends from university, starting to have families, and managing it without a car.
Just because you can't picture life without a car doesn't mean others haven't been doing that successfully for their entire lives.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 15:01:03 No.1903222 Report

Quoted By: >>1903226 >>1903227

>>1903175
A glass door for one billy costs 40 bucks. A Billy needs 2 doors. Let that sink in.

It's 150 bucks for one complete Billy. If you put 4 it's 600.

Let's not talk abou restroom fornitures. An Ikea system will sum up to 1200 bucks.

Carpenter prices are in the same ballpark, for something 10 times the quality.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 15:16:19 No.1903226 Report

Quoted By: >>1903227 >>1903458

>>1903222
Let what sink in? My custom bookshelves (barely even "custom" I just provided the measurements and they sent me the unassembled bits of wood and metal and I paid someone to install it) were $1200, no glass doors, just wood and metal

Show your math please

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 15:25:28 No.1903227 Report

Quoted By:

>>1903226
>>1903222
For comparison's sake btw this was for 92cm wood shelves, 6 tiers, with clearcoat carbon steel brackets. Nothing fancy, no hinged doors, no glass, literally just steel and wood, and not including installation.

I fail to see how you're getting made to order furniture at ikea prices in a first world country, unless there's slave labor or fraud involved, it just doesn't add up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 18:31:28 No.1903257 Report

Quoted By:

>>1903176
>Just because you can't picture life without a car doesn't mean others haven't been doing that successfully for their entire lives.

Absolutely right. And just because you can't picture how a car can be irreplaceable for some people it doesn't mean others don't actually need a car.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 11 Apr 2023 19:13:10 No.1903268 Report

Quoted By:

If you build denser and complement it with some bike and bus lanes you can really revive America's downtowns.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 12 Apr 2023 10:10:59 No.1903458 Report

Quoted By:

>>1903226
Looks a lot like you are a victim of consumerism. I bet there are no artisan shops around where you live, only medium and small industries and what you can get are the product of their manufacturing processes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 12 Apr 2023 10:41:59 No.1903462 Report

Quoted By:

Im so glad i moved out of the city jesus chist

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