just want to put this out there, before coming here I had never really thought about the difference between "campers" and outdoorsmen, now it is really obvious, campers spend a lot of time bantering back and forth about which overpriced prob made in chinashit gear is the best, whilst outdoor folks are more concerned with actually using what works regardless of some brand allegiance, and the funny thing is, I have witnessed several times the "campers" dishing out abuse, pretty typical , go into the wilds and school the natives, almost makes me regret the times i have helped "campers", and makes me feel better about scavenging their expensive gear left behind after they got spooked and run away at daylight, having said all of that, this is still the sanest and least abusive board on fourchins...at least you're trying,