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Volksframe PVC Pack Frame Design

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 01:11:31 No.2471322 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>2472016 >>2472082 >>2472387 >>2473322 >>2473350 >>2474164 >>2478030 >>2478565 >>2479197

This is a project I've been working on and I've compiled some instructions for how to make it.
The idea is that this pack frame can be assembled cheaply (even from scrap materials), quickly, and easily without power tools. It can be made by anyone and the instructions/design is made free to the people (hence the People's Frame). It is modular and can take many different types of packs.

I've tested it at 55 lbs so far but it can probably carry more weight. With a Molle Kidney Belt and Alice Straps it is plenty comfortable. Enjoy.

Link is at:
archive dot org slash details slash volksframe

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 01:12:32 No.2471323 Report

Quoted By:

Here's some other pages from the pdf. This page shows some packs attached to the frame itself

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 01:14:01 No.2471324 Report

Quoted By:

Here's the parts list page

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 01:52:52 No.2471345 Report

Quoted By: >>2471353

Why does the bottom of the frame go forward? How do you wear it?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 02:08:06 No.2471353 Report

Quoted By: >>2471594 >>2471597

>>2471345
You wear it like the Alice Frame. The Hip belt attaches to the small section that comes forward and it gives your shoulders a little bit of clearance from the back so that they aren't squeezed against the hard frame.
If the bottom did not move forward slightly and the hip belt attached to the center point of the frame, you would have no range of motion with your arms and it would be very uncomfortable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 08:37:44 No.2471524 Report

Quoted By: >>2471972

Extremely cool, OP! I have no particular use for it myself, but I appreciate a good effortpost.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 12:33:23 No.2471594 Report

Quoted By: >>2471597 >>2471891

>>2471353
apologies if this is a retarded question as i have never used an external pack before but you have piqued my interest: wouldn't that horizontal pipe at the bottom push against your butt or thighs? all seems straight on the back except for the bottom part, is it supposed to sit at an angle towards the top, inclined by the lower part's offset? again, i'm unfamiliar with external packs, so i think some sort of final image result wearing it would be more dummie-friendly

very nice effort, btw, just the right amount of /out/ism

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 12:40:57 No.2471597 Report

Quoted By: >>2471857

>>2471594
Not a retarded question, you put a kidney pad on that part of the frame, and when you adjust it to fit, the pad covers over the lowest bar. The lowest bar reaches to your kidneys just on your low back above your butt.
The frame itself does slightly tilt forward behind you, but its to provide clearance for your shoulders so you still have your range of motion to move your arms. I will post a picture later with the pack from >>2471353 on so you can see how it sits.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 12:54:11 No.2471600 Report

Quoted By:

bump for interest

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 19:02:26 No.2471857 Report

Quoted By: >>2471891

>>2471597
The ALICE frame doesn't have that horizontal bar, so the pad can curve around your back. Without that bar, the side pieces could act like the rigid wings on old packs that helped transfer the weight to your hips. Pic rel.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 20:16:24 No.2471891 Report

Quoted By: >>2471970

>>2471857
So If the Front Center bar was say, moved backwards to the very center of the frame and there was a gap between the two sides, it would curve the kidney belt better? I think its worth a try. Maybe I will mod the one I have made and see the difference.

Here's a pic of it on for >>2471594

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 22:20:05 No.2471970 Report

Quoted By: >>2472511 >>2473012

>>2471891
I thought about it, The bar is important to prevent unwanted flex when you tighten the kidney pad to the frame tight and the pad itself is strong.

Ideally, maybe a heat gun on the center of that bar at the front and a slight curve backwards could give a little clearance without compromising that part as something which stabilizes the frame, but a heat maybe defeats the easiness of building the frame? Thoughts?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 30 Sep 2022 22:25:55 No.2471972 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471524
I'll just repeat myself. This is very interesting, and I'm glad /out/ists like you post on this board.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 00:06:50 No.2472016 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471322
Bumping for a good thread.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 03:28:18 No.2472082 Report

Quoted By: >>2472879

>>2471322
i was shitting on pack frames earlier but this is actually really cool anon. how it can be constructed from scrap tier materials anywhere in the world. that alone makes it pretty cool even if a better frame could be designed.
picrel otzi backpack reconstruction.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 15:22:42 No.2472340 Report

Quoted By: >>2472345 >>2472346 >>2472436 >>2474059

OP here, so I tried to figure out a solution for the bottom bar and here's what I came up with-- while sticking to the original theme of the frame.
1) Problems
A: While a 4 way T at the center bottom would solve the issue of putting a straight bar at the center, a 4 way T joint is not a common part in hardware stores, or as far as I know, in a jobsite dumpster. Plus this wouldn't protect against front-flex when you tighten the kidney belt
B: If I use a heat gun, while its not a skilled-power tool, it isn't a "no power tools" build, same thing with a hair dryer which also would work.

Solution)
While the Volksframe works fine with a straight bottom bar, I can give some clearance and make it more comfortable by forming the bottom C Part bar which connects the frame up front. If I heat it and bend it, the bar will still be there to provide support for the frame for durability, and it gives a tiny bit of room for the kidney belt to better contour to your lower back.

What I did was I took the frame into the 3 pieces, and had the bottom part. I lit the smallest burner on the stove (which means this can also be done with a small fire outside) and held the center bar maybe 7+ inches above the flame for 3 minutes. Afterwards I pressed inwards with a bat to form it and set the new shape with cold water.

You can see the contour in picrel. It's not a giant difference, but it doesn't jab as hard into your lower back without a kidney belt now, and I expect the belt too will be able to form better.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 15:31:12 No.2472345 Report

Quoted By:

>>2472340
Another thought is, another running bend part can be used at the bottom and then the same process can be done, which would probably end up better when you are trying to curve it backwards further. Regardless, if you bend it with heat, the parts do need to be assembled so that the ends remain straight to go into the fittings properly

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 15:33:39 No.2472346 Report

Quoted By: >>2472367

>>2472340
The more you post, OP, the more building one of these is creeping up the ladder on my bucket list. Whenever you finish this project, please continue your volks-/out/ing series. I'd love to see DIY ponchos, bivybags, sleeping mats and so on made from easily scavenged materials!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 16:09:51 No.2472367 Report

Quoted By: >>2472372

>>2472346
Will do. This is definitely the most practical build I've worked on before. I've worked on other projects but they're more towards fixing little annoyances I've had with certain pieces of equipment. I'll probably add some of the notes I've made in the thread along with the pictures to the PDF and upload a second version to webarchive

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 16:14:42 No.2472372 Report

Quoted By:

>>2472367
That sounds like a good idea, I'll be sure to snag that PDF!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 16:29:13 No.2472387 Report

Quoted By: >>2472436 >>2472919

>>2471322

The concerns people have about the bottom sticking out is legit, idk what design process you went through but even with a hip belt, under heavy loads that bar will dig in your back and hurt. It is a good idea to have a gap on the back for ventilation but the hip and shoulder contact points should be molded and rounded for a human back, not just a straight pvc bars pushing on your muscles and giving you a sore.

Good idea, terrible design though, it hurts to even look at it. I suggest you to take a high elevation gain hike with over 30lbs to prove my point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 18:00:32 No.2472436 Report

Quoted By: >>2472473 >>2472879

>>2472387
The problem with the bottom is that it needed to either be eliminated (which you can't do with a PVC frame because the twisting force from the hip belt would break the fittings without the center bar) or for it to be bent inwards with heat, which I did. >>2472340
I think that bend in the bar could be made deeper with more time, or by using a running bend to start with. Ideally, there would be some kind of bracket which would allow better room, but at that point you are starting to run away from the theme of this whole build.
Likewise, the shoulder contact points are very high up where the handle turns into the support bars, so yes they could be bent with heat, but its unnecessary work compared to what little benefit you'd get from it. Most of the weight should be put on your hips anyways and the pack pulls down and away from your shoulders.

I get your points and they are valid, I'm trying to think of new ways to improve the design, but I think you're forgetting the point of this frame in the first place. You could take all of this extra time to heat up parts and bend them to make them more ergonomic, but this frame is meant to be able to be made cheaply, out of scrap materials, relatively quickly, and work. Sure, an injection-molded plastic frame might be more comfortable, but that isn't the point here.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 19:32:19 No.2472473 Report

Quoted By: >>2472493

>>2472436
Not really a design fag but couldn't you just have a three way fitting, keep the outer shelf, and have a bar that cross the bottom without sticking out?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 20:01:29 No.2472493 Report

Quoted By:

>>2472473
With a three way fitting at the bottom center, you lose the hip belt piece which sticks forward from the frame, which means having the pvc bars run all the way up your back, which is uncomfortable. Or, if you kept them without the bottom piece, it would not be a stable frame.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 20:38:30 No.2472511 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471970
>Thoughts?
I know nothing about the advantages of external frames, but this is a really cool project.
I think since you chose PVC for ease of sourcing and ease of building (which makes a lot of sense), a heat gun may be too big of a ask ultimately. You could still document it as a possible modification, but add a disclaimer for needed equipment. Alternatively, you may be able to get away with a normal hair dryer, on max heat and lowest fan speed. If that's not enough (and this is not 100% retard safe) you can hold your hand over the intake of your hairdryer so it gets significantly hotter, and essentially works like a weak heatgun. Should be enough to bend PVC, though I don't have any to verify at the moment. You just have to add disclaimers for that because if you hold your hand over the intake too long the heating elements of the hairdryer can burn through.

Have you thought documenting everything on github, preferably as github pages? That's basically free webhosting, rather than a archive.org link, plus all the advantages of git (people being able to see older versions etc)
Cool project OP.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 01 Oct 2022 22:09:48 No.2472559 Report

Quoted By: >>2472873

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 02 Oct 2022 13:58:19 No.2472873 Report

Quoted By: >>2472919

>>2472559
looks like it might work for a smaller frame with a tall pack on its own but if you go for a taller frame with an extra sleeping bag or roll mat on the bottom those side wings might get in the way, probably also why op chose not to put a pair on the pack side as well

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 02 Oct 2022 14:04:03 No.2472879 Report

Quoted By: >>2472919

>>2472436
what about removing the side pieces completely, would the kidney pad not sit properly without them on a bottom center bar? or maybe doubling it like in >>2472082 so the belt has both top-bottom support?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Oct 2022 14:12:17 No.2472882 Report

Quoted By: >>2472919

Interesting idea. I assume pvc pipe and pipe fittings are cheaper where you live so this would make sense financially.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 02 Oct 2022 14:58:36 No.2472919 Report

Quoted By:

>>2472879
By extending the bottom pieces for the waist belt, you get some space from those support bars on the sides and your shoulders. It minimizes contact points without changing the center of gravity too much.

You can see in your post with the Red Bag that even there, there is a center bar right smack dab in the center of the kidney pad, which tells me it is an important structural component even on frames with metal parts. I was trying to rack my brain to figure out a way to squeeze a pvc bracket or something to eliminate the center bar at the bottom but it doesn't make sense to given the purpose of the frame to be quick and easy to build, and the solution of putting either a straight bar or a running bend and just heating it over a heat source and bending it back to shape and give it some clearance suffices.

Originally, before that bottom piece you all see where the waist belt attaches, I attached the belt directly to the frame bottom when a center bar DID run through the middle, you had the pvc support beams press on your shoulders the whole time and it was uncomfortable.

>>2472873
Exactly. The original idea for this frame was to have the waist belt attach directly to the center of the frame, and those enforced supports you put the blue area through was going to be a "reinforced shelf". It got in the way more than it was actually useful though so I switched over to the idea of adding a back shelf with no sides to hold onto equipment instead and it functioned much better.
As I wrote earlier, the reinforced area became the kidney belt piece. All of this was learned through trial and error which was my design process (>>2472387) of actually going out and trying to design a decent PVC frame that wouldn't be too time or labor intensive to make.

>>2472882
If I remember correctly last time I checked a 10' 1/2" Sch40 was about 5 bucks, which is almost double what you need to build the frame.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Oct 2022 17:32:49 No.2473012 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471970
Thinner PVC might support the frame while allowing some flex.

The way things are mass produced is usually not the best way to make one offs. I'm fascinated by practical manufacturing techniques for the home hobbyist. One thing this frame would be great for is a growing kid.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 02 Oct 2022 17:45:35 No.2473018 Report

Quoted By:

Instead of trying to curve the tubes, what if the horizontal bars had a 22.5 degree elbow in the middle? Replace the 3-way at the bottom with a 90 degree elbow and a T just above it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 03 Oct 2022 00:40:03 No.2473322 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471322
Its very nice!

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 03 Oct 2022 00:43:13 No.2473325 Report

Quoted By: >>2473327

Based OP, is there any specific tools I need for this like power tools? Starting out on my own and don't have power tools.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 03 Oct 2022 00:45:06 No.2473327 Report

Quoted By:

>>2473325
As of right now, you don't need any power tools. Even putting bends in the PVC can be done using a stovetop fire or a small fire outside

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 03 Oct 2022 01:55:19 No.2473350 Report

Quoted By: >>2473366

>>2471322
OP here, come get your updated version of the PDF. There's some extra pages and pictures, along with the method I used to bend the front bar without using power tools.

Link: Archive dot org slash details slash volksframev2

Thank you participating anon bros. You guys make compiling these docs worth it

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 03 Oct 2022 02:32:51 No.2473366 Report

Quoted By:

>>2473350
This idea is sick dude keep us updated with any new innovations

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 04 Oct 2022 06:25:26 No.2474053 Report

Quoted By: >>2477307

It's funny to see this thread because I was briefly involved in a similar project.
I studied indigenous backpack design as I traveled around the world and noted many varieties.
I wrote a longpost about this on 8ch before the jews took it down

You may want to consider a floating pad- there's actually no reason for hard contact on the hips and this is where bruising is likely to occur.
Another common option is to roll a blanket around the lower section as if it were a towel rack.
With a one size fit all pack you're also probably going to want to gravitate towards a lower center of gravity- you see this with a lot of commercial packs as well.

I've threaded a regular belt through the bottom of a frame pack and rolled a blanket over it to create a lower back support.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 04 Oct 2022 06:33:00 No.2474054 Report

Quoted By:

Also I would be really wary of flex.
It takes a huge amount of energy to carry an object that moves around as you walk, a big appeal of frame packs is the rigidity.
I would avoid using PVC for the vertical sections because it will flex far too much under load and this bouncing weight will exhaust anyone.
There are also no natural anchoring points on a PVC pipe, it will be hard to attach anything rigidly to it.

One option you might consider is just putting dowel in the verticle parts- or using PVC endcaps on the dowel.
If you're drilling pins into the PVS this wouldn't be such a big deal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 04 Oct 2022 07:08:30 No.2474059 Report

Quoted By:

>>2472340
You've got a natural connection point at the end of each PVC pipe, if you drilled through the cap you could thread a cord through the pipe.

The second option would be to dual use the pin you're putting through the end cap. If the pin protruded or had a circle on the end this would be a natural mounting point as well.

I would strongly consider using threaded nuts instead of rivets- not everyone has a rivet gun and this is one less tool required.
Threaded nuts wouldn't crack the caps though they might crack the pipe- this doesn't seem like it would be an issue. Nuts work towards mounting points of various kinds.

I would also decide from the outset if knot tying is a required skill or not to make one of these.
I've seen backpacks made only with knots and cord- many materials could be avoided entirely if knot tying was utilized.
But if you're avoiding this avoid it entirely and use mounting points.

A very common feature of these backpacks is torsion being used to add rigidity.
You can actually softmount to pipes by threading a loop through the pipe then twisting it to tighten two loops at each end. Doing this you can stop it coming apart just by stopping whatever is in those loops rotating.
Expediently I've made frames with two pipes, a dowel on top tortion ratcheted onto the top of the pipes, and then tied my two tortion rods together in the middle which gave a natural spring to the lower section.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 04 Oct 2022 13:33:14 No.2474164 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471322
I dont like that its made of plastic because I'm a deep ecology anprimfag, but I like the general concept, it's also nice to see some OC here.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Oct 2022 11:28:26 No.2475544 Report

Quoted By:

why not just use internal frame?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Oct 2022 21:04:14 No.2477109 Report

Quoted By: >>2477146 >>2477860

PVC has a density of 1.38 g/m3 and a tensile strength of around 34 MPa.

6061 Aluminum has a density of 2.7 g/m3 and a tensile strength of 290 MPa. Aluminum is FAR more resistant to thermal stress. You can get a 96" .5 OD 6061 aluminum tube delivered to your house for around $50. Since the OD is the same you can use the shitty PVC connectors.

Why anyone would ever even think PVC is a viable construction material for such a project is beyond me. You would have to be a retard to do this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Oct 2022 22:00:26 No.2477146 Report

Quoted By: >>2477160 >>2477860

>>2477109
aluminum is lighter, too
my only guess as to why PVC is weather resistance, but you can also just powdercoat the aluminum

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Oct 2022 22:38:50 No.2477160 Report

Quoted By: >>2477860

>>2477146
Pvc is lighter, by volume. But far far weaker. So you need more to equal the strength of less, but heavier aluminum. Maybe the distinction is pedantic but I think it's worth mentioning when looking at engineering and design projects. Uncoated aluminum is going to be far better in the elements than pvc. Pvc is especially weak to the ultraviolet light from the sun. Over time it will become even more brittle, which will happen through the paint if it doesn't fully block UVA and UVB rays. Aluminum hardly reacts with air and the oxide it does form is not the same as rust you see with iron.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Oct 2022 05:36:10 No.2477307 Report

Quoted By:

>>2474053
>I wrote a longpost about this on 8ch
got a cap of that?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 09 Oct 2022 09:25:30 No.2477362 Report

Quoted By:

How about something like that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of8jhE_W79M

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Oct 2022 20:55:24 No.2477860 Report

Quoted By: >>2477867 >>2478331

>>2477109
Well, how often do you come across PVC vs Aluminum. If you gutted a house, would you find PVC, or aluminum. Which is easier to put a frame together with, PVC or Aluminum?
If you think the objective here is to create the most innovative, strongest frame using power tools and requiring someone with welding skills, the objective has clearly soared over your head by several measures of height.

>>2477146
Weather resistance, but mainly accessibility and ease of assembly.

>>2477160
Aluminum is the better choice of materials, PVC is very easy to get your hands on and is cheap, but more importantly free if you know where to look. If you or your buddies are hard up for a frame and you need to throw something together for a team of guys who don't have pack frames, the more efficient material considering time and ease to acquire and work with is PVC. If you have a garage and limited time, you go with PVC. If you have a shop to weld and form metal, you go with Aluminum, of course.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Oct 2022 21:07:52 No.2477867 Report

Quoted By: >>2477868

>>2477860
>welding skills
Did you even comprehend what I wrote? It will use the same fittings. There is no welding. The pvc is screwed together, it can be done with aluminum as well. Cheap isn't better. If you're going to put in all the effort to build something, at least have half a brain to make it last.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Oct 2022 21:13:16 No.2477868 Report

Quoted By: >>2477886

>>2477867
The point still stands. If you need an Ad-Hoc frame made of easy-to-acquire materials, especially in a situation where hardware stores aren't open, you will use PVC between the two choices.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Oct 2022 21:35:25 No.2477886 Report

Quoted By: >>2478566

>>2477868
If you are talking shtf/apocalypse scenario, wood is a far more ubiquitous and easier to source solution. You will never find the pvc fittings required for this by salvage. Once they are used, as in glued in place, they aren't going to be worth a fuck. You will never convince me pvc is better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Oct 2022 03:10:14 No.2478030 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471322
Pretty cool. You should probably be using schedule 40 electrical PVC because it's stronger and uv resistant

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Oct 2022 21:09:04 No.2478331 Report

Quoted By:

>>2477860
If you gutted a house you would find some PVC and almost no aluminum if any. Especially new builds. Condensation lines and almost all drain lines are PVC these days. Why would there be aluminum? Other than some shitty outdated wiring that no one uses anymore because it isn’t up to code, where would you find aluminum in a gutted house?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 11 Oct 2022 05:43:41 No.2478565 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471322
Got a free external frame pack and then cut off the bags and riveted flat bar aluminum to it as a brace to portage my canoe, five gallon gamma lid buckets and a two 110 litre bill's bags. added a few cam straps and it worked fine.. I like your design frame only because it floats and could be used for a net seine on my fishing pontoon

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Oct 2022 06:11:22 No.2478566 Report

Quoted By:

>>2477886
dun dun how about wood.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 12 Oct 2022 16:27:19 No.2479197 Report

Quoted By:

>>2471322
ESTO SI ES CALIDAD

Good job op, i just dowload it i dont think i will make one soon but time will tell

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