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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:20:51 No.18853596 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>18853636 >>18854005 >>18856256 >>18856551 >>18857073 >>18857086 >>18858550 >>18859847

Mid 2000s CZW has a very weird charm to it, and I miss companies like this existing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:23:45 No.18853616 Report

Quoted By:

2005 it's basically a super indie with death matches tacked on.
I would say they were the last indie that was any good, up until like 2011 maybe even 2012.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:26:28 No.18853636 Report

Quoted By: >>18853653

>>18853596
The beginning of theatre nerds doing everything to pop obese nerds. glad this shit is dead. s

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:27:31 No.18853644 Report

Quoted By: >>18853697 >>18856144

I remember the rohbots being really mad about the CZW feud, cause those guys were backyarders who were going to hurt the real wrestlers, meanwhile Claudio was already in ROH and Hero and Necro were just about to become regulars. Smarks always think they know more than they do.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:28:40 No.18853653 Report

Quoted By: >>18856357

>>18853636
>theatre nerds doing everything to pop obese nerds.
>dead
Boy oh boy do I have some bad news for you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:33:31 No.18853697 Report

Quoted By: >>18853757 >>18856289

>>18853644
It really was the greatest independent storyline of all time, and what a time when the independent scene was so rich that two companies with their own stars could book a storyline on that scale with each other. Then AEW killed the indie scene

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 05:40:00 No.18853757 Report

Quoted By: >>18856274 >>18856488

>>18853697
I kinda turned on the indies when I could more steadily watch Japanese wrestling by like 2008. but we really did have it good, especially compared to now. I can point to more Devon Moore matches that are worth watching than I can fucking Hangman. Now there's just MLW, and even then they killed my interest when they started trying to be a lucha underground spin off.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 06:08:32 No.18853994 Report

Quoted By:

CZW just presented their 22nd Tournament of Death earlier this year. It culminated in a final match with both competitors completely slashed open and drenched under pouring rain which created a literal lake of blood in the ring.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 06:10:32 No.18854005 Report

Quoted By: >>18854571

>>18853596
>CZW has a very weird charm to it, and I miss companies like this existing.
CZW just presented their 22nd Tournament of Death earlier this month. It culminated in a final match with both competitors completely slashed open and drenched under pouring rain which created a literal lake of blood in the ring.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 07:36:52 No.18854554 Report

Quoted By: >>18854562

That's clearly roh and not czw

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 07:37:49 No.18854562 Report

Quoted By: >>18854569

>>18854554
That's Justice Pain fighting El Generico in an interpromotional match

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 07:38:32 No.18854569 Report

Quoted By:

>>18854562
Did you know pain and back gage were brothers

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 07:38:59 No.18854571 Report

Quoted By: >>18856131 >>18856192

>>18854005
I said specifically mid 2000s, CZW still exists but nowadays feel a lot more like the trash wrestling that people used to deride it as, whereas it used to have genuinely talented performers and great matches

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 08:28:47 No.18854940 Report

Quoted By:

I miss the indies before AEW and Tiny Con killed them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:17:30 No.18856131 Report

Quoted By:

>>18854571
https://youtu.be/jmP1HGlWSgs?si=pJScdfEg8u3MF7gx

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:19:07 No.18856138 Report

Quoted By: >>18856181

Do CZW wrestlers even get paid? Their crowds are only like 50 people max

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:20:54 No.18856144 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853644
I remember there also being a consorted effort on the boards to say moxley was not good enough for roh. At the same time demanding player uno come back.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:28:50 No.18856181 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856138
Can’t speak for modern CZW. But in the 200s in the arena CZW would draw 400-600 fans for b shows. And 800-1000 for the big events. AEW has been running the arena and appear to be doing just a little over 200.
As far as pay I think outside of shows put on by schools it’s considered good etiquette to pay something at least to help cover gas money. And death match guys usually get some sort of bonus, maybe like $100.
20 years ago top indie guys like Danielson and Joe could demand $1000 a match, with the understanding being even if the house didn’t change you’d sell more DVDs of the show with them on it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:31:32 No.18856192 Report

Quoted By: >>18856209

>>18854571
you know damn well you haven't watched it in years so you don't even know if their current product is any good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:36:25 No.18856209 Report

Quoted By: >>18856300

>>18856192
You don’t really need to be watch modern wrestling to know it’s bad. I tried watching GCW and it’s very poorly shot and way too much intergender and multi way matches. In addition to just the in general in ring degradation we get with every new generation of talent. If CZW was better than that I’m sure people would be singing their praises.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:47:58 No.18856256 Report

Quoted By: >>18856461

>>18853596
100% agreed. CZW and to a lesser extent IWA-MS are really comfy to watch, I love the atmosphere of the shows and it's great to see how, at their best, they balance out talent and juvenile stupid marky death defying antics. A more refined version of the passion of backyard wrestling. Couldn't give much of a crap about wrestlers looking like Adonis, I'll take Jack Evans and Trent Acid doing dumb shit anyday over what's being served nowadays. Everybody treated it as the thing that it was without getting too pretentious about it, and the latter part had become the nadir of the indie scene by the mid 2010s. Like yeah, you'd marvel at some of the athleticism in one minute, then in the next one you'd be laughing your ass off at the most botchamania hall of fame worthy spot you've ever seen, all done in some parking lot somewhere, all for the love of taking bumps for a hotdog, a handshake, and a drunk crowd of 50 people.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:53:59 No.18856274 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853757
I'm down for a Devon Moore & Al. best of session. Send us what you got, man.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:57:29 No.18856289 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853697
the indie scene was already dead by the time AEW started

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 13:59:27 No.18856300 Report

Quoted By: >>18856346

>>18856209
So you're judging it based only on GCW? Jesus fucking christ no wonder you think that way. Let me clue you in on something man...GCW IS FUCKING TRASH!!!! IT IS LITERALLY THE WORST FED OF ALL TIME!!!!! CZW IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT DEGENERATE FAGGOT FILTH!!!!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:10:13 No.18856346 Report

Quoted By: >>18856447 >>18856509

>>18856300
Name me the top 3 indie shows of the last 3 years, I'll pirate them right now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:12:02 No.18856357 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853653
Is this slowed down in certain places

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:34:26 No.18856447 Report

Quoted By: >>18856517

>>18856346
If you want to review the current state of the indies, watch these free shows on youtube:

>Action Wrestling x ROH: Dean 2
https://youtu.be/0f1PDPXCVz0?si=BUg2e8mlYIkBfWXO

>Cannonballfest
https://www.youtube.com/live/zom59X0H3Ug?si=L0g2r_gIc1o2cbJW
(its on GCW's page but it has Shlak so you decide)

>JCW Powder Keg: https://youtu.be/8BtBjewkJfQ?si=T4_ZCR_uIgNqy3IZ
>JCW vs GCW 1: https://youtu.be/0UCyl_pDHR4?si=L-46GQ1ck0lzpsDt
>JCW vs GCW 2: https://youtu.be/48elq7Or4O8?si=oOpb0e4ZU5L73RBD

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:37:44 No.18856461 Report

Quoted By: >>18856547 >>18856617

>>18856256
The difference between OG CZW and something like modern AEW is that while there was still blatant illusion-breaking cooperation in the CZW high spots, there was a sloppiness to it that meant the guys really wiped out.

It had the same charm as Jackass.

Now, not only is there blatant cooperation but they try to play it as safe as possible on the bump. So it ends up looking faggy.

The 2000s spot monkeys had the mentality of Sabu or Hayabusa where they committed to the spot and really put their body on the line.

Now wrestlers are inspired by the Young Bucks and come off like soft queers

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:40:04 No.18856469 Report

Quoted By: >>18856541 >>18856733

the 2000's was the last time we had several promotions filling different niches, and the indie scene was a big part of that. it was nice to have a wide array of styles to choose from

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:41:43 No.18856481 Report

Quoted By:

>Zandig CZW
Supreme kino. The pinnacle of the 2000s American indie boom.

>DJ Hyde's CZW pre-GCW split
Actually underrated. The SmartMarkVideo guys probably tard rangled Hyde just enough to keep it from turning into a mudshow. Janela and MJF could have a feud over Penelope Ford in the undercard while Masada did something retarded in the DeathMatch main event
Was better than PWG the whole time.

>CZW now
Went full retard. Hyde is running a mudshow

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:42:28 No.18856488 Report

Quoted By: >>18856532 >>18856680

>>18853757
>japanese wrestling

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:47:03 No.18856509 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856346
1. Ric Flair's Last Match - one of the biggest indie shows ever
2. JCW powder keg - worth watching just to see a GCW shitter getting lit on fire in a shoot gone wrong
3. NWA Crockett Cup 2025-best crockett cup since jim crockett imo

And while you're at it you should check out this year's TOD.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:47:42 No.18856513 Report

Quoted By: >>18858005

Fat Frank's Jersey All Pro was the sleeper best indie alongside Zandig's CZW. Gabe's ROH was smark faggotry (except for Joe)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:48:58 No.18856517 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856447
I'm not watching anything involving GCW, literally anything involving them is an auto-nope from me.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:52:16 No.18856532 Report

Quoted By: >>18856674

>>18856488
Japan had a pretty fun indie scene around the same time

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:53:30 No.18856541 Report

Quoted By: >>18856566 >>18856570

>>18856469
you can literally trace the decline of the American indie boom with the rise of the Young Bucks

Pre-Bucks, we had
>Zandig's CZW
>low rent PWG with Super Dragon, Human Tornado and Chris Bosh
>Chikara - back when it was CZW guys playing lucha characters and before Quack screwed over Reckless Youth
>MLW v1 trying to replace ECW
>Jarrett's NWA TNA
>IWA MS actually using real talents from WCW, ECW, TNA, and WWF

The moment things went to shit is when Gabe got fired from ROH, launched Dragon Gate USA/EVOLVE to fight back and signed indie talents to "exclusive contracts"

Johnny Gargano was such a faggot for being the first mark to sign an exclusivity deal for working indies.

Then battle lines started to get drawn on which shows you could work if they were Highspots or SmartMark or iPPVs.

Then the Bucks and Gargano and Ricochet became these overhyped "taste makers" thanks Voices of Wrestling.

DJ Hyde started to try to appeal to the smarks
Quack went into turb autism mode
PWG became a circle jerk

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:54:04 No.18856547 Report

Quoted By: >>18856807

>>18856461
you have literally nothing to say about CZW or indie wrestling in general. All you want to do is lump it in with AEW and that is retarded. CZW doesn't even fucking work with AEW you brain dead consolewarrior faggot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:54:36 No.18856551 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853596
2004-2012 in general was a great time to be a fan of the indies. CZW, JAPW, PWG, ROH, IWA-MS, CHIKARA. There was something for everyone.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 14:59:12 No.18856566 Report

Quoted By: >>18856818

>>18856541
turbo autism Quack was when Chikara was at it's best 2007-2011. Chikara dies the moment they he'd their first ever iPPV. I can still watch 2012-2013 Chikara and there is some fun stuff but it's nowhere near the previous years

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:00:23 No.18856570 Report

Quoted By: >>18856707 >>18856815 >>18859826

>>18856541
>forcing your hateboner this much
I don't like the Young Bucks either, but the indie boom was killed by black & gold NXT gobbling up any indie talent worth anything. It was then double killed when AEW became a thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:11:56 No.18856617 Report

Quoted By: >>18857093

>>18856461
>The 2000s spot monkeys had the mentality of Sabu or Hayabusa where they committed to the spot and really put their body on the line.
Excellent point. A lot of those retards were going all-or-nothing full speed ahead, and that naturally keeps the immersion from breaking apart as it usually does in PWG-lite spots. That's why someone like Low-Ki or Teddy Hart will always be more appealing to watch than a Mike Bailey. They embodied the character without much space left for irony, and I will concede that the latter can be pretty funny but it doesn't really make for compelling wrestling. The proliferation of stand-and-wait top rope spots sucks so much ass.
I will also add that many wrestlers are a lot slower and more sluggish than they think they are, which looks terrible on TV, moreso than it did on typical indie camcorders.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:20:39 No.18856674 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856532
>HUSTLE
>Osaka Pro
>Big Mouth Loud
>Diamond Ring
>early DDT
I don't if these are strictly ''indie'' per se, but hell yeah man I'm all for this kind of off-kilter small jap promotions. If you got any more recommendations then I'm all ears.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:21:53 No.18856680 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856488
After 2001, WWE and Japan are the only places where guys get enough actual in ring experience to hone their craft. Indies are fun little freak shows, but there's no professionalism in their professional wrestling.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:25:22 No.18856707 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856570
>I don't like the Young Bucks either, but the indie boom was killed by black & gold NXT
wasnt that young bucks peak? total coincidence im sure

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:29:21 No.18856733 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856469
pretty much all promotions now work a homogenous style of wrestling that is a hybdrid of different schools but never really manages to be a concrete synthesis. it's just muddy. a damn shame.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:43:30 No.18856807 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856547
are ya bubblin?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:44:57 No.18856815 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856570
>black & gold NXT gobbling up any indie talent worth anything.
which was in response to ROH and NJPW working together to sign talents to dual contracts... like the Young Bucks

>It was then double killed when AEW became a thing.
And who are the founding wrestlers of that company?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:46:09 No.18856818 Report

Quoted By: >>18856863

>>18856566
Quack's real turbo autism came with the shutdown, the "movie" and the relaunch

The BDK was his peak in terms of walking that tight rope between fun lucha and pure reddit and then he fell off the cliff

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 15:55:02 No.18856863 Report

Quoted By: >>18856904

>>18856818
>The BDK
>turn girls heel cause they don't get opportunities
>become enforcers and don't actually challenge for the titles
>big fat guy never taken off his feet!
>have him slammed by green ant
>quack and jigsaw save the day
I liked it at the time but looking back on it, quack fumbled.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 16:01:02 No.18856904 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856863
are you saying SDR and Haze weren't good additions to BDK? I liked their roles in the stable, especially Del Ray

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 16:32:44 No.18857073 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853596
current czw is still good, pay no attention to the shitmongers who say otherwise, most of them are shills for gcw and are therefore trannies by default.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 16:35:58 No.18857086 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853596
Smarks think Sami Zayn is a traitor because he doesn't take bumps to the neck like that every match anymore

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 16:37:37 No.18857093 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856617
I think that's really the charm of CZW and mid 2000s indies in general, it seems like most of them genuinely had no idea how terrible this type of wrestling is on the body long term, because it's not like there was a precedent for that type of neck dropping head trauma wrestling by that point. That and a lot of them were drug addicts and just completely reckless

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 18:53:01 No.18858005 Report

Quoted By: >>18858528

>>18856513
>implying Homicide wasn't based

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 19:33:51 No.18858528 Report

Quoted By:

>>18858005
Homicide (and Monster Mafia) got their start in JAPW.

Anyone who was actually based in old school ROH was just someone Gabe took from JAPW

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 19:35:09 No.18858550 Report

Quoted By: >>18858808

>>18853596
Thats el generico in a roh ring?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 19:49:27 No.18858808 Report

Quoted By: >>18859943

>>18858550
Fighting Justice Pain in an interpromotional match, as you can clearly see that the mat canvas has CZW spray painted on it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 20:59:54 No.18859826 Report

Quoted By:

>>18856570
I blame the Bucks for catering to and bringing certain crowds into the indie sphere, namely the twitter trannies. You know the type. Conceited and pretentious.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 21:01:11 No.18859847 Report

Quoted By:

>>18853596
>CZW has a very weird charm
>Posts RoH clip

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 21:05:45 No.18859933 Report

Quoted By: >>18859970

Shlak from the top rope

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 21:06:14 No.18859943 Report

Quoted By:

>>18858808
NTA but I didn't really notice the spray paint and was confused too. Thx for the explanation.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 21:08:18 No.18859970 Report

Quoted By:

>>18859933
I botched it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 21:34:43 No.18860376 Report

Quoted By: >>18860951 >>18861762

Comfy thread. Make me want to rewatch all that old shit. I might still have some CZW dvds somwhere in a box.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 22:07:03 No.18860951 Report

Quoted By:

>>18860376
A certain villainess luchadore sells bootlegs for like $40 a year.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 Sep 2025 22:51:11 No.18861762 Report

Quoted By:

>>18860376
Most of old czw and iwa ms is on iwtv

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 21 Sep 2025 00:32:34 No.18865118 Report

Quoted By: >>18865901 >>18866120

judging from this thread i didn't know people disliked gabe sapolsky this much

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 21 Sep 2025 00:59:30 No.18865901 Report

Quoted By:

>>18865118
Gabe has always sucked. The most turbo smark faggot ever made.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 21 Sep 2025 01:06:06 No.18866120 Report

Quoted By:

>>18865118
He benefited from having access to the absolute cream of the indies in the early to mid 2000's. He was proven to be a talentless shitter when that was taken away from him.

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