/pw/ - Professional Wrestling » Thread #19487544

[81 / 15 / 1]

2MiB, 1972x2860, Vince_McMahon_2.jpg

ITT: We apologize to Vince.

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:29:08 No.19487544 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>19487624 >>19487715 >>19487894 >>19488028 >>19488052 >>19488447 >>19488765 >>19490223 >>19490633 >>19491245 >>19491905 >>19492561 >>19492845

>Cheap ticket prices for families
>GOAT Rosters
>GOAT Booking
>Greatest Heel in the history of Wrestling eternally.
>Wasn't a slave to profit hungry board of directors

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO IMG_3038.gif, 447KiB, 220x165

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:30:46 No.19487554 Report

Quoted By:

Vince is the godfather of wrestling.
Just be happy you were lucky enough to live through it.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 01-bret-hart-raw-calgary-696x400.jpg, 35KiB, 696x400

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:31:01 No.19487555 Report

Quoted By: >>19487582

He was though

Also he's the won that made the company public, selling out first to shareholders and eventually to the Jews. Gave us the awful PG era. All he cared about was profit after WCW was dead.
The truth is that the competition with WCW produced the only good content wrestling has ever had on television and everything else has been baby-tier retardation for dumb brownoids ever since.

You can't blame TKO without blaming Vince because he sold out to them. Same as people defending George Lucas when he's the one who sold out to Disney -- that makes it your responsibility, at least in part, for however bad it gets without you.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO images (12).jpg, 12KiB, 259x194

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:40:10 No.19487582 Report

Quoted By: >>19487588 >>19487786 >>19487834 >>19487895 >>19488024 >>19488109 >>19488765 >>19488777 >>19489202 >>19492855

>>19487555
Checked, but you got one thing wrong.
>The truth is that the competition with WCW produced the only good content wrestling has ever had on television and everything else has been baby-tier retardation for dumb brownoids ever since.

2001-2008 was absolutely a golden era of wrestling. Attitude and Monday night wars only lasted 3 years, but the 7 years post-invasion was absolutely the best the WWE has ever been.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:41:31 No.19487588 Report

Quoted By: >>19487623 >>19490056 >>19490458 >>19490628

>>19487582
Everyone cool stopped watching in 2001 and never came back. You're a fag for watching that era, sorry bro.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO eddie-guerrero1.jpg, 130KiB, 709x866

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:49:34 No.19487623 Report

Quoted By: >>19487689 >>19487751 >>19487799 >>19487834 >>19488765

>>19487588
>Kurt Angle
>Brock
>Baptista's best years
>Benoit and Guerrero peak matches
>The Smackdown 5
>Cena's actually good heel and face runs
>Undertaker's peak matches after returning as the deadman in 2004

From every possible angle the post-invasion was peak WWE

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 01:49:46 No.19487624 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
Hope he gets shown at the hall of fame when Steph gets in and Cena and Jericho and then he gets back in the fold especially if the Saudis buy it one day. He’ll never die so he can book it again fuck it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:01:01 No.19487689 Report

Quoted By: >>19487756

>>19487623
Cena between 2005-2011 was the absolute drizzling shits. I laugh myself to death when retards speak about his feuds with Edge or Orton when they were absolute garbage from a wrestling standpoint. Even Cena recognized in an interview not long ago that his wrestling was fucking shit during that era so he started asking every single other wrestler he worked with how to get better, learn other moves, and mesh with his style.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:06:13 No.19487715 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
DEAR

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:11:34 No.19487738 Report

Quoted By:

VINNY

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:15:11 No.19487751 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487623
404 dimes not found

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:16:14 No.19487756 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487689
>Super Cena PG Era 2011-2022 is better than Dr. of Thuganomics or first Face Run.

You can't possibly be serious. After 2008 is when Cena just became the 4 moves of doom.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:22:24 No.19487786 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487582
Wrong, me and everyone I know stopped watching during those years. There some cool stuff here and there but the quality fell hard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:25:34 No.19487799 Report

Quoted By: >>19487824

>>19487623
Oooh you're one of those fags that watch wrestling for the fake wrestling, nobody gives a shit bro but I always remember when Stone Cold sodomized Vince while he was at the hospital

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 217534.jpg, 46KiB, 683x384

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:30:35 No.19487824 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487799
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hyx1O7Qugs

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:33:20 No.19487834 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487623
>>19487582
Not sure if golden but was hella great.
I didnt appreciate Benoit enough because watching some of his matches it was kino af.
Brock being a freak of nature but still beatable also gave us his best performances.
Umaga was such a great monster too. Wasnt prroperly used after he jobbed to Cena but still had great stuff.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:45:02 No.19487881 Report

Quoted By:

I would love for Vince to have one more trick up his sleeve. But I just don't see it happening.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:46:26 No.19487894 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
You forgot tall muscle bound wrestlers

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 02:46:36 No.19487895 Report

Quoted By: >>19488010

>>19487582
>2001-2008 was absolutely a golden era of wrestling.
>anything past X7
>golden era
LMAOOOOOOOO

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO il_1140xN.2313041597_7xo5.jpg, 605KiB, 1140x1526

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:01:59 No.19488010 Report

Quoted By: >>19488012 >>19491127

>>19487895
Literally the wrestlmania after that was peak Kino

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:02:56 No.19488012 Report

Quoted By: >>19490985

>>19488010
>peak kino
>one of the most overrated matches because of marks marking out like retards

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:05:08 No.19488024 Report

Quoted By: >>19488079 >>19490985 >>19496403

>>19487582
I read some stupid fuckin posts on here but saying the early 2000s was a golden era is the most baffling fucking thing Ive read in a while.

Oh yea Big Show riding Big Bossman's dad's casket was fuckin peak
Hell yea funaki still doing the godzilla shit, epic
Oh boy another 45 second womens match
Awesome, super cena mustard and baloney arc!

Fuck off. This site used to have balls to ban people with such absurd takes on things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:06:58 No.19488028 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
>Wasn't a slave to profit hungry board of directors
Kikes, you mean kikes. Ari Emanuel is at the top of TKO and he is the yid pushing the money grabs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:10:05 No.19488052 Report

Quoted By: >>19488072

>>19487544
We also had a cheap WWE network that had the PPV's and archival content in one place instead of spread across multiple streaming services like today. I don't think we truly knew how good it was at the time plus it was slightly ahead of the general streaming trend anyway.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1513347060775.png, 1MiB, 1356x864

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:13:52 No.19488072 Report

Quoted By: >>19488193 >>19488224 >>19490985

>>19488052
This was the future of the tag division under Vince.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:15:00 No.19488079 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488024
>Oh yea Big Show riding Big Bossman's dad's casket was fuckin peak
>Hell yea funaki still doing the godzilla shit, epic
>Oh boy another 45 second womens match
>Awesome, super cena mustard and baloney arc
Which part of that is supposed to be bad

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:19:49 No.19488109 Report

Quoted By: >>19488150 >>19494217

>>19487582
worst post of the year.
wwe was only good 1997-2001 and then 2012-2016. everything before, after or in-between is unwatchable garbage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:25:30 No.19488150 Report

Quoted By: >>19488313

>>19488109
>2012-2016
WTF is good about the middle of the PG unless you're just glazing MC Punk?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:30:00 No.19488193 Report

Quoted By: >>19488254

>>19488072
Ok, now wtf does that have to do with the WWE Network?

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO GOOD.gif, 472KiB, 250x173

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:34:35 No.19488224 Report

Quoted By: >>19493723

>>19488072

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:38:53 No.19488254 Report

Quoted By: >>19490985 >>19492277 >>19493145

>>19488193
That MMM was what Vince was booking in 2022 as the future. Is that really the booking you wanted?
LA Knight almost got a worse fate than he has right now as the fucking manager to these two weebs

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:48:51 No.19488313 Report

Quoted By: >>19488362 >>19490985

>>19488150
Daniel Bryan
Brock Lesnar
The Rock
John Cena
CM Punk
Chris Jericho
The Shield
Wyatt Family
Kane
Dolph Ziggler
Ryback
Evolution
Mark Henry
Paige
Sasha Banks
Alexa Bliss
Usos
New Day
NXT Takeover

it was kino

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1610741262360.jpg, 60KiB, 480x480

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 03:59:43 No.19488362 Report

Quoted By: >>19488371

>>19488313
>Brock Lesnar
>The Rock
>John Cena
Part timers during that

>Wyatt Family
Fumbled a billion times over.

>PG Kane
Absolute trash.

>Evolution
>Womeme wrestling

>Usos
HAHAHAHAHAHHA The tag team with literally only 4 moves that only win because of nepotism?

>Shield
ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

>New Day
Zoomer Kid bait

>Ryback
Temu Goldberg was not fun to watch

Dolph Ziggler was the only thing of worth in that sea of shit. Daniel Bryan was a nice underdog story but took gargantuan effort from the fans to happen and then disappeared. NXT takeover brought some cool shit but it also made wrestling school the designated area for anyone under the age of 32 missing their best years before being called up to the main roster now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 04:02:32 No.19488371 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488362
Evolution as in HHH, Randy and Batista. their matches against the shield were based. team hell no was based. Ryback was based. part time Brock and Rock was better than 2002-2011 and 2016-present

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 04:18:52 No.19488447 Report

Quoted By: >>19488572 >>19490437 >>19490985

>>19487544
He pooped on his secretary, wanted to fuck his daughter, and his right-hand man was a gay pedophile who used the company to recruit boys to molest.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 04:51:34 No.19488572 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488447
we all make mistakes

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 05:10:51 No.19488674 Report

Quoted By:

Vince should have fave the company to Shane in 2019 cutting out paul and stephanie
Shane would suck in his own ways but it be better then tko and Paul and dementia vince

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1649205429367.jpg, 53KiB, 625x657

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 05:31:59 No.19488765 Report

Quoted By: >>19490985

>>19487544
>>19487582
>>19487623
>muh 10+ years ago
Yes disregard everything from 2014 onwards

The constant women shit
The decade long new day run
The endless NXT shitter callups
The atrocious commentary
The dogshit fugly wrestling attire
2019

Fuck you E drone

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 05:37:01 No.19488777 Report

Quoted By: >>19490581

>>19487582
Delusional. As soon as Vince bought WCW, the audience was cut in half and has only fallen from there. It killed the business and led to the post kayfabe era which has been garbage ever since.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO vinceshane.png, 846KiB, 896x690

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 05:38:28 No.19488782 Report

Quoted By: >>19490460

>bring the whole family for fun times

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 08:10:58 No.19489202 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487582
That part.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 14:36:42 No.19490056 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487588
This. Wrestling got so lame at one point I just stopped watching. 2000/2001 sounds about right

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 15:18:34 No.19490223 Report

Quoted By: >>19490426 >>19490985

>>19487544
Not apologizing. The man is still a real life avengers level threat, and a human fucking traffickers. Triple Fraud just can’t book. Give it a few years, maybe ticket sales drop, maybe other companies start gaining momentum, maybe then he’ll figure his shit out

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:06:48 No.19490426 Report

Quoted By: >>19490457

>>19490223
>makes up a bunch of shit to justify "the ick" that women and the media have weaponized in the last decade
He was a carny. He got singled out cause he was a white guy and that's the only acceptable demographic for blaming the fact that it's a garbage world of bread and circus and we've peaked as a species because it's not exploitably profitable to excel.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:09:17 No.19490437 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488447
Proto-heel booker. Good thing Paul is here to perfect it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:14:41 No.19490457 Report

Quoted By: >>19490608

>>19490426
>He got singled out cause he was a white guy
This jabroni is saying this in the same month when a P-Diddy documentary dropped. Your victim mentality needs to be studied.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:14:43 No.19490458 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487588
true, everything after the attitude era is shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:15:48 No.19490460 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488782
>he thinks kids wouldn't be laughing their ass off at this
of course the gAyEWtoid liberal doesn't understand anything about a family

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO images (13).jpg, 8KiB, 253x199

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:39:41 No.19490581 Report

Quoted By: >>19490877

>>19488777
>Post Kayfabe
Attitude era literally started with Vince directly telling the camera that wrestling is fake and we are gonna do crazy shit now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:47:07 No.19490608 Report

Quoted By:

>>19490457
Oh wow, a single outlier makes up for the hundreds of hit pieces and articles surrounding "evil white man ruins society, evil white boys are all monsters" that's been the staple of media for the past decade.

Still trying to gaslight in the information age? Are you retarded?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:53:10 No.19490628 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487588
This ignorance does not account for the multiple references to Kurt Angle in hip hop.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 16:55:02 No.19490633 Report

Quoted By: >>19490868

>>19487544
tickets were cheap because no one wanted to go to the shows lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 17:48:44 No.19490868 Report

Quoted By:

>>19490633
>People want to watch the current era slop

You've got
>Year+ long snoozefest title reigns
>the worst tag division since 2014
>50% of the roster is 40 or older
>10,000 Samoans with the same moveset
>Womeme wrestling taking up 50% of the show
>Still PG limitations and commentary
>Pointless feuds like Drew vs. cody lasting half the year

Who the fuck wants to watch this shit?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 17:50:04 No.19490877 Report

Quoted By: >>19490933

>>19490581
No he didn't say it was fake he said the characters were boring and he was gonna make it more over the top.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 17:59:57 No.19490933 Report

Quoted By: >>19490958

>>19490877
>We are going open the creative envelope
>The key word is we are "entertainment" beyond the confines of just sport
>We barrow from soap operas
>You're tired of having your intelligence insulted
>This is the cure for the common show

If you can't understand he is saying wrestling is fake and we are gonna make it more entertaining as ENTERTAINMENT then you clearly don't have ears.

Saying "you're tired of the super hero who wins and says to say your prayers and eat your vitamin" is flat out explaining booking.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 18:04:39 No.19490958 Report

Quoted By: >>19490979

>>19490933
Obviously he is being meta but there's nothing there that would break a kid's immersion

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 18:08:50 No.19490979 Report

Quoted By:

>>19490958
>Kids
It wasn't a matter of keeping kids immersed, it is the adults. Everyone over the age of 13 would immediately know wrestling was fake which is the majority of fans.

AND MORE PEOPLE TUNED IN. They accepted it was "Sports entertainment" rather than "wrestling" and thought the crazy fake shit they were doing was awesome.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 18:09:35 No.19490985 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488012
>>19488024
>>19488072
>>19488254
>>19488313
>>19488447
>>19488765
>>19490223
VDS
I HEAR SMARKS COPING
VDS
I HEAR SMARKS SEETHING
VDS
I HEAR SMARKS RIDIN SOLOOOOO (on they wrestling figs)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 18:30:49 No.19491127 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488010
Literal 1 match show

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO hq720 (1).jpg, 79KiB, 686x255

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 18:46:08 No.19491235 Report

Quoted By:

Vince also saw the ring as sacred, not to be put on adverts and soulless messaging.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 18:49:07 No.19491245 Report

Quoted By: >>19492865

>>19487544
He IS western pro wrestling. Everything else, including WWE of today, is living off of Vince and who he was.
Only Japanese wrestling has been its own thing for the most part.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 21:20:03 No.19491905 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
>No ads all over the ring

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 21:25:30 No.19491949 Report

Quoted By:

Everything pre-Punk era was actually comfy. Not amazing but 2010 was a really good year outside of NXT.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 22:16:35 No.19492277 Report

Quoted By: >>19492836

>>19488254
Yea, Vince might not have liked LA Knight at first, but I think he might've been won over by Knight once he started getting more over with the fans in 2023.
Triple H hates LA Knight so much he'd rather give him nothing and have him do fuck all, not that Knight looks unique enough to stand out from the rest of the crowd like CM Punk. What's so fucking special about LA Knight anyways?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 23:11:19 No.19492561 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
He did nothing wrong

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 4e3.png, 602KiB, 615x357

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 23:53:45 No.19492836 Report

Quoted By:

>>19492277
Being the MMM manager as a male talent with the charisma that LA Knight had was a fate worse than death. At least Vince just put him there because he knew he had charisma but was just biased against anyone over 40.

HHH just purposely makes LA Knight suffer but at least he gets to wrestle in the main event seen, even as the designated jobber

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 23:54:41 No.19492845 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487544
What cheap prices did he have for families at WM?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 23:56:19 No.19492855 Report

Quoted By:

>>19487582
>golden era

Maybe on planet 2retarded2exist

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Dec 2025 23:57:19 No.19492865 Report

Quoted By:

>>19491245
Vince should do the right thing and shit on a joshi

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 00:36:37 No.19493145 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488254
Vince's booking still has nothing to do with the WWE Network and it was already getting phased out by then in the U.S. if I remember correctly. Now hit the weights, take a shower, and get a clue you fuckin' mark.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 00:39:57 No.19493154 Report

Quoted By: >>19493220

>not a single houseshow in my podunk town since Vince left
Miss him every day, bros

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 00:51:32 No.19493220 Report

Quoted By: >>19493242

>>19493154
>House shows
Do they even do those anymore at all? Just seems like wrestling work 2 days a week.

1 for practice and 1 for their show

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 00:55:25 No.19493242 Report

Quoted By: >>19495566

>>19493220
Very rarely now

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 01:26:22 No.19493723 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488224
Fucking hell, were people shoot liking MMM?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 02:03:06 No.19494217 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488109
Bruh 2012-2016 had literally no storyline, it was just Brock squashing plp

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 03:49:20 No.19495566 Report

Quoted By: >>19495656 >>19495657

>>19493242
Do House shows just not make money so TKO doesn't care?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 03:59:52 No.19495656 Report

Quoted By:

>>19495566
They say it's for "the superstars' bodies" but yeah basically

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 03:59:54 No.19495657 Report

Quoted By: >>19495863

>>19495566
They make less money than PLEs so they don't' bother, completely ignoring the point of house shows is to practice spots for big matches and also develop long term fans by offering a cheap way to see superstars locally

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 04:25:32 No.19495863 Report

Quoted By: >>19496422

>>19495657
There is nothing left of Vince's way....

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 06:56:13 No.19496403 Report

Quoted By:

>>19488024
Imagine how much better things would be if women's matches were only 45 seconds still

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Dec 2025 07:05:07 No.19496422 Report

Quoted By:

>>19495863
This. The killshot was Cole saying how professional wrestling has destroyed sports entertainment after Gunther made Cena tap

Capcode	All Only User Posts Only Verified Posts Only Moderator Posts Only Manager Posts Only Admin Posts Only Developer Posts Only Founder Posts
Show Posts	All Only With Images Only Without Images Only Spoiler Images Only Non-Spoiler Images
Deleted Posts	All Only Deleted Posts Only Non-Deleted Posts
Ghost Posts	All Only Ghost Posts Only Non-Ghost Posts
Post Type	All Only Sticky Threads Only Opening Posts Only Reply Posts
Results	All Grouped By Threads
Order	Latest Posts First Oldest Posts First

On these archives

Your latest searches

ITT: We apologize to Vince.