/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #13677712

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Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:11:46 No.13677712 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13677809 >>13688645

How do we make Ice viable?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:13:22 No.13677718 Report

Quoted By:

resistances

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:14:19 No.13677721 Report

Quoted By: >>13677861 >>13677868

It is now SE against water

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:16:07 No.13677727 Report

Quoted By:

>implying it isn't already viable
it's a good offensive type. but to make it better? remove the steel resistance

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:16:12 No.13677728 Report

Quoted By: >>13677806 >>13677888

Mamoswine, Weavile and Cloyster prove that it can be viable. So you just have to make more good Ice pokemon, such as an Ice/Fighting type (not weak to pebbles!). Or an Ice/Steel Cryogonal evolution.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:35:42 No.13677806 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677728
This, fucking this

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:37:20 No.13677809 Report

Quoted By: >>13683883

>>13677712
Freeze-inflicting status move unique to them
Ice-type entry hazard that they absorb
Resistant to Fairy

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:47:41 No.13677861 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677721
I like this Idea

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:51:10 No.13677868 Report

Quoted By: >>13677896

>>13677721
This doesn't make ice types viable. This makes ice moves viable. Ice moves are already plenty viable; they're available for every water type and deal with grass/dragon/ground/flying. Making them SE against water just means that running ice/water gives you perfect coverage, and you'll be playing water types with those moves and ignoring the ice types like everyone already does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:55:08 No.13677888 Report

Quoted By: >>13677895 >>13677912 >>13677999 >>13683354

>>13677728
That's bullshit. Your examples are only good because these ice types are carried by their other type. Ice will lose its niche this gen as dragon counter without using dragons yourself because of the fairy type. Ice will deteriorate and needs a boost. Nerving stealth rock would be the best start.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:57:26 No.13677895 Report

Quoted By: >>13677898 >>13677911

>>13677888

>Cloyster
>Carried by its water typing

u wot meight

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:57:47 No.13677896 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677868
This is true. Ice is a great offensive type, but defensively it sucks, so you're better off using a water type with an ice type attack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:58:13 No.13677898 Report

Quoted By: >>13677902

>>13677895
Carried by its ability*

FTFY

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 09:59:51 No.13677902 Report

Quoted By: >>13678182

>>13677898

Yeah, this shit where terrible Pokemon get carried purely by virtue of having good abilities, moves, and the typing and stats to utilize them needs to fucking stop.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:01:39 No.13677911 Report

Quoted By: >>13677927

>>13677895
>implying pure ice types do well in the higher tiers
I was making a generalisation. Cloyster would still be good without the water type and would still be great in OU, however the water type does give it a better typing and more moveset options with a STAB water type attack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:01:47 No.13677912 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677888
ice never countered dragons, and never will unless they actually resist it. ice shard will still be one of the best ways to slay dragons regardless of fairy types

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:06:44 No.13677927 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677911

Cloyster would be much worse as a pure Water type than it would be as a pure Ice type. Its ludicrous Defense prevents most rock / fighting / steel Pokemon from doing much to it even with STAB weakness, and although Water patches its fire weakness, chances are a neutral or even resisted fire attack is still going to wreck its shit since most of them are Special, and now it has two more weaknesses to worry about. The only thing it really gives it is STAB Razor Shell for steels.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:07:03 No.13677928 Report

Quoted By: >>13677942

>buffed defences in Hail
>more Freeze chances (give them one with like 30% chance)
>make some Ice types with some actual defences
>SE to Water and Bug like it should have been

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:07:23 No.13677929 Report

Quoted By:

Resist Fairy, Water, and Dragon

Over all increase in special defence.

Ice type move that heals the user

Ice type move that ups defence by x1.0

>Ice pokemon with soundproof and perish song, negating it's own death

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:07:39 No.13677931 Report

Quoted By:

For starters someone should tell GF that defensive Ice-types are not a good idea.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:11:01 No.13677942 Report

Quoted By: >>13678003

>>13677928
>actual defense
I was so pissed off when it turned out Beartic couldn't take a hit. Ice type or not, he's a polar bear. He should have good physical defense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:26:57 No.13677999 Report

Quoted By: >>13678004 >>13678015 >>13678221

>>13677888

Well, Ice type is good because it combines well with other types. I mean, how many single-typed (not necessarily ice) pokemon are even good competitively? Some are, but they are almost always defensive.

Ice/Steel would fix all the problems with ice type. You get the resists, and keep the offensive greatness of the ice type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:27:35 No.13678003 Report

Quoted By: >>13678009 >>13678023

>>13677942
Beartic should be able to wreck shit up. Instead, we've got a slow, frail mon with just barely passable attack.

I seriously hope it gets a Mega evolution or something.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:28:17 No.13678004 Report

Quoted By: >>13678035

>>13677999

>Ice/Steel
>4* weak to Fighting
>4* weak to fire
>Weak to URFQUAKE
>Good defensively

Are you having a laugh?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:29:47 No.13678009 Report

Quoted By: >>13678025

>>13678003
Beartic was easily one of the most disappointing pokemon ever. I was expecting a useful ursaring but instead I got shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:31:28 No.13678015 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677999
what? By making its main weaknesses even weaker?

I dont understand anon

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:31:38 No.13678017 Report

Quoted By:

Ice types should resist fairy, dragon and maybe water and have their defense boosted in hailstorm. That's all

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:33:40 No.13678023 Report

Quoted By:

>>13678003

I just generally wish they'd stop giving Pokemon unusable-tier stats. Variation is fine, but you shouldn't be instantly dismissing the vast majority of Pokemon for anything beyond solo use.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:33:44 No.13678025 Report

Quoted By:

>>13678009
As a fan of Ice types I can't stand Beartic
>hate Cubchoo's design
>Beartic's mediocre as all hell stats (50 speed, really?)
>evolves WAY too late for what he is

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:36:05 No.13678035 Report

Quoted By: >>13678074 >>13682237

>>13678004

If he was fast (like a Cryogonal evo), that wouldn't matter. You could switch into a dragon's Draco Meteor, then outspeed him next turn, ignoring his Fire Blast attempts. Besides, most steel types have these weaknesses, and no one complains. They still get used. They still are recognized as defensive monsters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 10:46:17 No.13678074 Report

Quoted By: >>13683997

>>13678035

Except for pretty much every fire user in OU being fast already, it'd have to be 109 base speed to outspeed infernape, for example.

That's faster than fucking Keldeo. Even in lower tiers it'd have to be 106 to outspeed Rapidash in NU 101 base speed to outspeed Typhlosion and Entei in RU, and the same to outspeed Victini in UU, although after 1 V-create that problem sort of solves itself. I can see the 96 required to outspeed Arcanine in UU, but I can't understand why two of the traditionally slowest types would suddenly combine to be fast.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 11:07:42 No.13678182 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677902
icwatudidthar

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 11:15:54 No.13678221 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677999
>Ice/Steel
>fix all the problems
are you completely fucking retarded

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 18:24:54 No.13681250 Report

Quoted By:

Make them have the stats of dragon types and psuedo legendaries.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 19:50:29 No.13682118 Report

Quoted By:

Ice

------------NOW------------
Offensive:
>Strong Against:
Dragon, Grass, Ground, Flying.

>Resisted by:
Fire, Water, Ice, Steel.

Defensive:
>Weak to:
Fire, Rock, Steel, Fighting.

>Resist:
Ice.

------------I WANT------------
Offensive:
>Strong Against:
Dragon, Grass, Ground, Flying.

>Resisted by:
Fire, Steel, Ice.

Defensive:
>Weak to:
Fire, Rock, Steel.

>Resist:
Ice, Water, Flying.

------------HAIL------------
Increases Ice type Pokémon's Special Defense and the damage done with Ice Type Moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 19:52:40 No.13682155 Report

Quoted By:

Making it resist water would help.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 19:59:16 No.13682237 Report

Quoted By: >>13688662

>>13678035
Except that those steel types don't have two x4 weakness. Do you even comprehend what that means?
Two x4 weaknesses, one of those weaknesses having an extremely common priority move

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 20:02:51 No.13682287 Report

Quoted By:

- Ice could use more resistances, preferably to types that aren't bad offensively.
- Give Hail more support.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:02:36 No.13682911 Report

Quoted By: >>13683805

Ice should be weak to everything

Flying
>hurricanes break ice

Normal
>body heat melts ice

Fire
>fire melts ice

Water
>water melts ice

Electric
>electricity creates heat which melts ice

Grass
>Plants grow in ice which crushes ice

Fighting
>karate chops crushes ice

Poison
>acid melts ice

Ghost
>ghosts use their powers to break ice

Psychic
> telekinesis powers break ice

Steel
>Steel is hard and can crush ice

Dark
>Sucker punches break ice

Bug
> pincers can break ice

Ice
>ice can break ice

Rock
>rock crushes ice

Ground
>earthquakes crushes ice

Dragon
>dragons breathe fire which melts ice

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:46:17 No.13683343 Report

Quoted By:

We don't

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:47:12 No.13683350 Report

Quoted By:

just make Hail to give them a boost

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:47:32 No.13683354 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677888
>Dark
>carrying anything

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:47:42 No.13683356 Report

Quoted By: >>13683375

resist water, resist rock

fixed forever

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:49:16 No.13683375 Report

Quoted By:

>>13683356
>resist water
agreed
>resist rock
resist agnaist ground is a better option

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:54:20 No.13683417 Report

Quoted By: >>13683457

Rock types get a passive 50% special defense boost in sand, along with all their abilities and stuff activating.

Fire/Water buff their own types and weaken their weaknesses.

Ice does nothing for hail except for like four Pokemon with snow cloak and ice body. And boosting Blizzard's accuracy, but not its damage. Even the going through protect thing got removed.

Fuck, give ice types a passive 30% speed boost in hail or something. Throw them at least a small bone.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 21:59:23 No.13683457 Report

Quoted By: >>13683542 >>13683628

>>13683417
30% speed boost and more power&accuracy for ice moves and we have a deal
and i dont know,release a pseudo legendary ice type that has some ability like drizzle but its Hail

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:08:07 No.13683542 Report

Quoted By: >>13683590

>>13683457
>and more power&accuracy for ice moves and we have a deal
That's a major problem with Ice Types though. Ice moves are great. So many things love running ice beam or would even go through the trouble of getting Hidden Power ice just for the coverage above every other type of hidden power.

But that's the problem. Everything else running it means Ice Types don't matter nearly as much. You could put a weak ice type on your team to handle stuff like Landorus or Salamence. But why even do that if Gengar running Icy Wind, or almost literally every single water type running ice beam can work just as well for that role? If you only buff Ice attacks, you're buffing all of those other ones and making Ice types themselves even more irrelevant. You've buffed Glaceon who already has a fuckton of power behind it and doesn't really need much more, but Gengar is over here also reaping the benefits in a non-hail centered team.

It's the same thing as if you needed a bulky Pokemon specifically who has a ground type weakness, but can't be poisoned. If you ignore the whole fighting type resistance/weakness thing, steel has so many more defensive and offensive properties making it so much of a better choice than poison that most people wouldn't even consider using a Swalot over a Metagross in that situation because of how outclassed it is.

I'm just sort of ranting at this point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:12:28 No.13683590 Report

Quoted By: >>13683624 >>13683787 >>13683901

>>13683542
TL;DR:buffing Hail=useless?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:15:49 No.13683624 Report

Quoted By: >>13683767

>>13683590
Not him, but I don't see why buffing hail to give ice types a defense boost would be useless. Ice needs maybe a Fairy resistance and a few moves unique to ice types and they'd be great. An ice type version of swift swim wouldn't hurt either.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:16:12 No.13683628 Report

Quoted By:

>>13683457
That ability already exists and it's called Snow Warning. However, only Snover and Abomasnow have that ability at this time.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:19:33 No.13683666 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:28:13 No.13683767 Report

Quoted By:

>>13683624
>an ice type version of swift swim
This

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:29:59 No.13683787 Report

Quoted By: >>13683851

>>13683590
hail needs to buff ice types, not just their moves

New hail:
>All ice types under hail have 50% greater speed
>All non ice types are buffeted for 6% damage
>Various Ice Abilities activated
>Blizzard has 100% acc
>Freeze under hail last 2-8 turns, as opposed to 1-5

effectively, ice attacks are buffed too because anything running special ice can use blizzard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:31:32 No.13683805 Report

Quoted By:

>>13682911
That bait wasn't even worth typing the captcha.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:38:37 No.13683851 Report

Quoted By: >>13683914

>>13683787
and maybe release some Ice type moves that can only ice type pokemons can learn
something like will-o-wisp to freeze pokemon can be a good support

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:41:22 No.13683872 Report

Quoted By:

Ice resists Fairy, Stealth Rock changes from raping Rock weaknesses to being the anti-air entry hazard. BAM, Ice is an usable type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:42:44 No.13683883 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677809
i lije these ideas

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:44:31 No.13683901 Report

Quoted By:

>>13683590
The idea is that buffing Ice types is the problem. Ice moves are already powerful enough. To the point that they're useful even without STAB. Hence Ice types themselves being entirely outclassed.

Buffing Hail to buff ice moves wouldn't help ice types enough, because the same problem would still arise of ice type moves being so useful that they've grown out of the need for STAB from the weakness-filled ice types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:45:42 No.13683914 Report

Quoted By: >>13688668

>>13683851
Smeargle and mimic would pretty much shut down the viability of that entirely.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Sep 2013 22:52:57 No.13683997 Report

Quoted By:

>>13678074
but those arent the pokemons it's need to outspeed, you are speaking about it's posible counters. It needs to outspeed dragons and anything weak to ice that would carry a coverage move.
ice and steel do shit against fire...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Sep 2013 10:14:15 No.13688645 Report

Quoted By:

>>13677712
High speed and attack/special attack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Sep 2013 10:19:51 No.13688662 Report

Quoted By:

>>13682237

Heatran has a 4x ground weak, 2x fighting and 2x water (exchanged for 4x fire for the ice/steel). It's still recognised as a defensive behemoth. Besides, all those other steels are slow as fuck. My hypothetical Cryogonal evo would be fast (like 350 speed), and so could avoid the fire/ground/fighting coverage moves, unlike Heatran and other steels,

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 07 Sep 2013 10:21:39 No.13688668 Report

Quoted By:

>>13683914
>anyone using mimic ever
>people using smeargle for anything besides spore and baton pass ever

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