To the more competitive battlers out there, I have a question about Protean Greninja.
Anonymous
Tom 3823-9073-4989
I've heard using Shadow Ball for the resistance is pretty effective if you're trying to counter specifics.
Anonymous
I felt like U-turn with Gren's weak attack stat isn't even worth it. I gave him Grass Knot for yuks and decided that when he goes in, he stays in to the bitter end.
Anonymous
>>15075717 >120 Isn't it 115? Just curious.
Anonymous
>>15076529 I've heard that Greninja can also learn spikes. Would it be worth it to have spikes to rick out some Tbolts into being not-effective?
Grass Knot seems like a good idea, though. Grass/Water is a pretty neat combination type too.
Anonymous
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15076601 It's actually higher than 120, 122.
Anonymous
>>15076662 Toxic Spikes is what it gets.
Which is arguably better since using it with Protean may mean it can actually take a hit
Anonymous
>>15076837 it gets spikes from leveling and toxic spikes as an egg move
Anonymous
Personally, I prefer Hydro pump to surf. The additional power's a good thing with how many new special walls there are. Obliterating things like Klefki and Aegislash on the switch is fun.
Souji Seta 3196 - 3956 - 1271
Grass Knot > Extrasensory.
Théo [X - 4184 2168 7992] {Ariados, Cascoon, Whirlipede} !q1tGp7rYVA
Théo [X - 4184 2168 7992] {Ariados, Cascoon, Whirlipede} !q1tGp7rYVA Wed 23 Oct 2013 18:45:42 No. 15077025 Report >>15076471 >Not Shadow Sneak Get on my level, bro.
Anonymous
>>15076964 If I'm lucky enough to get an HP fire, I'd definitely run that.
Seems like Grass Knot is a good choice here over Extrasensory, then.
So, it seems like we've gotten something closer to this.
Ice Beam
Surf/Hydro Pump
Grass Knot
HP Fire/U-turn/Spikes/Toxic Spikes
Anonymous
>>15076662 >>15076837 >>15076907 That's funny thematically because they're ninja caltrops. If I was doing this, I'd probably go with spikes and bait babbies into thunderbolting me.
Only objections I can think of to this are that greninja doesn't strike me as a smart lead, and if spikes are your game it's kind of a waste to deny yourself a stab coverage to lay down a trap in the middle of a fight.
I'm not an experienced battler though, just my two cents.
Anonymous
>>15077025 >Needing priority to dodge attacks with 122 base speed. U wot? It can't even be used to dodge extreme speed because it's only +1.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077025 >Using a non-momentum physical attack on a special oriented move set. Anonymous
>>15076915 Only problem here is if you miss, you're dead. Especially if it's your first move, when people are expecting you to be water type.
Anonymous
>>15077050 You can use entry hazards on non-leads, just so you know.
It's less about the coverage as it baiting people with a thunderbolt, and taking no damage WHILE setting up another hazard into the fight.
In a sense, it's a free Spike set up.
Souji Seta 3196 - 3956 - 1271
>>15077046 I'm trying two things right now:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid/EVs Standard
~Hydro Pump
~Ice Beam
~Grass Knot
~U-Turn
Greninja @ Focus Sash
~Surf/Ice Beam
~U-Turn
~Spikes
~Taunt
Tom 3823-9073-4989
Quoted By:
>>15077025 >Tries to be funny >Tries to make me look like a dickhead >Gets ripped to shit Get on my level. Bro.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077050 I rarely use greninja as a lead, only if I think I can really, really get away with it.
He is so much better sweeping once other mons have been hurt/killed as then it can be very hard to stop him.
I scout with a jolteon very often, and that normally leads to many dead greninjas, though I guess toxic spikes would put a damper on that.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077176 Yeah I gathered. I don't know how people do it, I was just speculating there on very little knowledge. You're right, and the thunderbolt bait is a great plan.
Anonymous
>>15077207 I'm assuming the second set is a lead Greninja?
That set seems like it could work pretty well, too. Definitely outspeeds hazard threats for the taunt, and has his own hazard set up.
Only problem is, I don't see much use for the U-turn. I'd expect him to do his work as a lead, and then go down.
Souji Seta 3196 - 3956 - 1271
>>15077304 It's lead.
And I think U-Turn is great on leads, in case something goes awry and I want to get the fuck out.
Also Espeon. I'm probably going with Ice Beam over Surf.
Anonymous
>>15077207 Hydro Pump?
I feel like surf/scald (can he learn it?)
would be the better option, just because this is a case of him missing = instant death
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077153 Don't have the numbers for gen six pokemon but hydro pump over surf enables:
>certain 1HKO without rocks on Bulky Vocarona
Skarm
Medicham
Gengar
Froslass
Lucario
Omastar
Accelgor
Sableye
As well as likely 1HKOs without hazards on things like Cloyster, Thundurus-T, and Scizor.
Worth it imo.
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly)
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly) Wed 23 Oct 2013 19:00:27 No. 15077545 Report >>15077393 I'm running a mixed set with scald instead of surf and shadow sneak instead of grass knot.
It runs in my three man as a lead, u turns out to my Dragonite and then I sweep up if my Dragonite and Mawile get taken out. U turn with life orb and a few attack EVs can ohko a M-Mewtwo Y. If it doesn't I just fodder a poke and take it out with shadow sneak.
Anonymous
can it learn psychic or psystrike by fucking a psyduck?
>>15076471 can it learn that?
also, my two cents: I wouldn't choose moves for the immunities they give (spike, shadow anything etc) since non-retarded people will know it's running Protean and will just try to guess what move it's gonna be using next, instead of thinking "lol water, it's weak to electric!"
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077545 can it learn scald? haven't found the tm yet
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly)
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly) Wed 23 Oct 2013 19:01:55 No. 15077608 Report >>15077560 Running immunities is still useful for mindgames and predictions.
Souji Seta 3196 - 3956 - 1271
>>15077482 Obviously it's instant death, but it's necessary in my opinion.
Surf would BASICALLY be equal to Ice Beam. It's a risk vs. reward situation, and Pump is necessary to OHKO certain pokemon.
Anonymous
>>15077608 yeah, but it's just as useful as not running them, exactly for mindgames; plus, you wouldn't be forced to run a mixed set
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077025 faggot of the month over here
Anonymous
Quoted By:
It would have been great if greninja got volt switch.
Anonymous
>>15077637 Yeah, I think it's just that I've had bad experiences with missing online.
>>15077608 Not really
It works on someone once if they haven't seen it before but then never again.
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly)
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly) Wed 23 Oct 2013 19:06:04 No. 15077804 Report >>15077661 His attack is only like 5bst lower than his special. Running mixed is useful for u turn, which I think is almost mandatory for him. Plus priority shadow sneak is great if you're up against something else with priority or aura sphere.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
has anyone tested to see if Froakie can get anymore priority moves through breeding? Vacuum Wave or Bullet Punch would be pretty interesting on this guy.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077804 I have a problem with mixed sadly. Maybe I'm just a scrub.
Anonymous
His movepool isn't very good offensively. He gets water and ice, thats about it. I think you're better off using him as a spikes setup.
Anonymous
>>15077865 >what is psychic >what is grass yeah could have been better admittedly
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077804 Running mixed is ass because you have to split 252 between two stats, both which are pretty mediocre base stat speaking. Also his physical movepool is much worse than his special.
Souji Seta 3196 - 3956 - 1271
>>15077777 Nice quints. Anyway, trust me. I'm living proof of missing literally everything.
But it's necessary. Like Focus Blast and Gengar.
Anonymous
>>15077898 uhhh, both of those fucking suck for coverage ESPECIALLY psychic. Thats like saying using Extrasensory on Typhlosion is good.
Extrasensory is also a pretty shit move by itself.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077804 Greninja is useful as a late game cleaner. How do you expect to clean up with a 40 BP move?
95 atk, especially with no attack investments, is going to be awful. You're better off running physical or special.
U-turn is used for momentum, not for a power attack, which is why most special sets have U-turn, regardless of the Timid nature.
Anonymous
>>15077957 that's why I asked if it could get psychic or psystrike as an egg move
Anonymous
>>15077957 I'll give you psychic, but grass is good coverage. Grass Knot would be good on Greninja.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077991 The point is...don't fucking use psychic. Any sort of utility move is much better for that moveslot.
Grass Knot is debatable...I wouldn't use it but really just don't use Extrasensory or any Psychic move for that matter.
If you ask me he's best as a spikes setup with U-turn maybe.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077919 I know, but focus blast is a necessary evil due to the need to scare and the lack of move tutor at the moment.
It's like why I'm afraid of using stone edge on my archeops, because everything just goes into the hands of the RNG.
>>15077804 Mixed really isn't a good idea with his stats.
U-turn isn't really there for damage
It's there to keep momentum on your side
Plus if you spread the EV's then you're gonna end up with a greninja that can't OHKO, which means you end up with a dead greninja
Anonymous
>>15077957 even shitty moves are better on Greninja because of Protean. Remember that while Extrasensory is 80 BP for most, it's 120 for Greninja thanks to STAB.
Same applies for stuff like Hidden Power, U-Turn, and anything else you teach him.
Another thing to note is that defensive moves change his type too, so Spikes makes him Ground and Substitute makes him Normal
Anonymous
>>15078062 http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Type_chart I suggest you study this. Grass Knot only adds coverage to water since both ground and rock are already covered by his primary STAB. In other words, you can cover ONE MORE type using Grass. Grass Knot is about as good of coverage as extrasensory is, and if used defensively you're most likely just nerfing him since turning him into a grass type would probably do more bad than good.
Anonymous
>>15078100 And just because you brought it up:
have we all come to the unspoken conclusion that Substitute is a terrible idea?
Anonymous
>>15078100 >What is coverage. Seriously, read my post.
Anonymous
>>15078188 >primary stab No such thing with Protean. One could run Grass Knot INSTEAD OF Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078272 He means ice beam, because why the fuck would you have a greninja without it.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078272 Except that Grass Knot has a tendency to suck ass even super-effectively if the opponent is light enough, so really, that was never an option.
The guy's right. If anything, grass knot is should probably be the move to go, unless there's some serious threat in the meta over bulky water types.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078255 I'm just saying that Extrasensory may not be a good move but it's a bit better on Greninja. Does it warrant a moveslot? Depends on how scared the rest of your team is of Fighting or Poison really.
>>15078245 Probably, just an example. The only niche is if you can predict a Ghost attack to get a free Sub, otherwise he can't support one.
Anonymous
>>15078188 Are you implying that water types aren't the most common thing in OU next to dragons and steel types?
If someone sent in say Gastrodon or another strong bulky water check to my Greninja, and I don't have Grass Knot, I'm forced to U-turn out of there.
If I do have Grass Knot, all their bulky water tanks become shit to my STAB Grass Knot.
Anonymous
>>15078272 >Reading comprehension What I meant with my post is that grass isn't gonna give him much more coverage than what it already has with Water. I was not talking about STAB, I know he gets STAB.
The other point I tried to give was that turning him into a grass type would do more bad than good.
Honestly, using him as a sweeper with his movepool is ehh. He reminds me of Sceptile.
I would use protean defensively and setup spikes. Turning him into poison with Toxic Spikes could actually have him take a hit.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078385 You can still Ice beam for a good amount of damage.
You're really gonna sacrifice a moveslot that can be used for spikes which will most likely last you the entire game if you play right, over being able to take out one pokemon that you don't even see often in showdown anymore.
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly)
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly) Wed 23 Oct 2013 19:22:44 No. 15078519 Report >>15078255 With scald, u turn, ice beam, and extrasensory/dark pulse he has coverage for pretty much everything. His offensive movepool is great.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078401 defensively? dude it's got shit defenses, no amount of resistances/immunities is gonna save it. I'm seeing it more as a late-game sweeper
Anonymous
>>15078401 He's pretty good as a late game sweeper
If they've lost their counter to him or have damaged guys, he can be pretty damn scary.
Focus Sash + Spikes/Toxic Spikes could work, but I don't really see the point of usign him over anything bulky as the sash will only allow him to take 1 hit before he dies. His defenses are shit that even a not very effective move will put him way below half
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly)
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly) Wed 23 Oct 2013 19:25:10 No. 15078614 Report Quoted By:
>>15078385 So just run something that can cover your ass. Greninja does not have to be your answer for every poke out there.
Anonymous
>>15078519 >considering U-turn for coverage We're still doing this?
Anonymous
>>15078519 I still can't see the point of u-turn if you're going special
>but muh momentum! you'd just hit for a tiny chunk of hp and your other pokèmon would take the next attack; whereas you could have used that moveslot to pack another move and possibly not having to switch in the first place
Anonymous
>>15078580 why not run him with substitute then?
As a sweeper he's not that great unless its late game as you mentioned, sweepers are supposed to be able to handle anything that gets thrown at them, including their weakness. Is he really gonna do that with that movepool?
That just makes him meh at most.
Zak 4828-4931-2111 (Riolu/Throh/Mankey)
Quoted By:
>>15078623 point of using U-Turn is using it when you're predicting your opponent is going to switch
Anonymous
>>15078519 Fairies, bug, steel, poison and fighting if dark pulse, psychic if extrasensory, and many mixed types will resist or be nuetral to all his attacks.
He has his uses, but he isn't some catch-all.
U-turn is not used for damage, it used to get the fuck out while doing a little damage, hopefully baiting a move that the guy you switch to is immune to or won't take much damage from
Anonymous
>>15078713 On the subject of sweeping, I have a question.
Is his priority multi-hit shit since its physical?
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly)
Chris 0774-4605-4230 (paras, heracross, Beautifly) Wed 23 Oct 2013 19:28:24 No. 15078780 Report >>15078615 It's a 105 bp move coming off a decent 95 attack. I said earlier that I can ohko a M-Mewtwo Y with it. Protean makes it so that mixed sets are viable because you make up for the loss of special attack with stab.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078750 Forget him, I decided to ignore him when he said his movepool was great. Its not worth it to argue with blinded faggots.
Anonymous
>>15078713 Because his substitute will just die.
It'll have absolutely no hp behind it.
Unless you want to go sub-attack-sub-attack
which will just end with him eating a priority move and dying after the first sub.
Anonymous
>>15078780 Mewtwo Y is fucking weak defensively, why would you even use that as an example. Also Bug is shit as fuck for coverage. You're using U-turn on him ONLY for utility, which is a bonus since he gets STAB from it.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078774 Yes, also it does shit damage, doesn't change his type, and its priority is useless because Greninja should be handily outspeeding whatever you're throwing it at.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078713 Because he is a terrifying late game sweeper.
Having been on the giving and receiving end of a late game sweeping greninja
Take out or just put a little damage on the guys that would be able to stop greninja in his tracks and he can go through the entire team like it was swiss cheese.
Anonymous
>>15078842 I still don't see why you can't use him as a spikes setup though.
Carry sash just in case, with Toxic Spikes he will most likely be able to take a hit unless your opponent is running earthquake, so you can set it twice before you start attacking.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15079033 Because there are better guys you could be using for spikes set up.
Can he do it?
Yes
But would other guys do it better?
Yes
Zak 4828-4931-2111 (Riolu/Throh/Mankey)
Quoted By:
>>15079033 with Defog, suicide leads probably won't be too good this gen
Anonymous
>>15079033 Spikes could be decent if you send out Greninja opportunistically in the midgame and drop spikes when things get ugly/ when someone does something stupid, but even then you're not getting as much from spikes as you would with a better setup and you're not getting as much from Greninja as you would if you thinned out their team first.
Anonymous
>>15079213 His only good coverage is water and ice, specially. So I don't see why not carry at least 1 of the spikes along side u-turn, or at least some other utility move.
Grass has too many resists to be useful, psychic can safely be switched into by a dark type, Dark also has a lot of resists though this is maybe more viable than the other two.
Anonymous
I could swear that I recently got hit by an electric move from Greninja. Does anybody know what move that was?
Anonymous
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15079470 Nothing's electric on serebii. Maybe he gets an egg move?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15079539 Could be. I might have saved the fight. Currently going through a few of the recent ones.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15079435 Oh, I'm definitely going to carry spikes in one slot since it's probably more fun than both psychic and grass. It's just that if I know Greninja's going to die, I'd rather do as much damage as possible with a non-resisted STAB than set up late-game spikes or waste a turn switching out.
U-turn for predicting switches is nice, but with the variety of moves Greninja can crank out it'd be just as effective to predict the switch with an unexpected STAB and finish them off with priority next turn.
Anonymous
I don't have a Protean Froakie, but I've seen a Protean Kecleon and doesn't the type change AFTER you use a move? Would you still get the STAB bonus from that?
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15080056 The type changing happens before the attack effectively giving you omnipresence STAB.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15080056 Protean activates as the attack is declared, so all attacks will always get STAB.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
What about using Greninja as...A physical lead
Anonymous
>>15077919 I've been using dazzling gleam. What can focus blast/shadow ball take care of that gleam/ball can't?
Anonymous
>>15080434 Pretty much nothing now that steel isn't resisted to ghost.
Anonymous
>>15080434 Tyranitar.
Gengar needs focus Blast.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15077055 Shadow Sneak is a good idea to not get Mach Punched in the face before it can change type.
Anonymous
>>15080744 >>15080573 Gleam can't down T-tar then. That's a good reason. Still, it would pain me to lose that fairy provided coverage and going back to missing.
Anonymous
>>15080922 Gleam
Tbolt
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast
I don't see the problem here. Don't tell me you're one of those idiots that are suggesting Sludge Bomb just in case a fairy type pops up. You know, one of the two that will probably be in OU. Togekiss and Azumarill.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15080981 Gleam
Tbolt
Shadow Ball
Destiny Bond
Is what I'm currently running.
Anonymous
Quoted By:
>>15078916 >one hits a pokemon b-b-but it still sucks!
maximum tism :D
ColourfulDucttape
>>15079539 Could be, although..
Been breeding a fuckload of Protean Broaks and the only Hidden Powers they seem to have are Dark / Dragon / Steel / Ghost / Poison.
Trying to get a fire but it's like.. non-existant.
ColourfulDucttape
Quoted By:
>>15083386 Nevermind that, seems it's IV based and most of mine are perfect hp/spatk/spd +1 or +2
