/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #15634590

[158 / 8 / ?]

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:34:13 No.15634590 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>15635899 >>15637774 >>15638830 >>15642651

>"Let's make a rapid spinner that can't be OHKO'd by anything and at worst three-shots the bulkiest spin-blocker."

I had faith in you, gamefreak. Why did you have to fuck up even worse than gen 5.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:37:50 No.15634756 Report

Quoted By:

>m-muh sneaky pebbles

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:39:28 No.15634810 Report

Quoted By:

That's what you get for being a hazard faggot

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:40:31 No.15634852 Report

Quoted By: >>15635012 >>15636410

Not enough.
They should have made Rock types remove pebbles on switch in.
And wind moves like Gust and Hurricane should push hazards to the other side of the field.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Laughing Cooks.jpg, 36KiB, 435x351

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:40:57 No.15634863 Report

Quoted By: >>15634934

Anon, don't you get it? If they run Mega Blastoise, that takes up the mega slot. It leaves shitzard in its original and still shit form.

Citrus 1220-7186-8797 [poison]

Citrus 1220-7186-8797 [poison] Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:42:25 No.15634925 Report

Quoted By:

I OHKO them all the time with Grass Knot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:42:39 No.15634934 Report

Quoted By: >>15635001 >>15635109 >>15635135 >>15635301

>>15634863
>implying Megazard X isn't going to be banned by metagamers
>implying CharYzard is any good

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:43:08 No.15634952 Report

Quoted By:

Don't worry, Defog gets rid of hazards and cannot be blocked.

Still, SR being retooled into antiair Spikes, worse than Spikes against grounded stuff, should had been FAR better.

Doesn't take away from the fact that now Blastoise is usable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:44:28 No.15635001 Report

Quoted By: >>15635109 >>15635114 >>15638768 >>15644768

>>15634934

>Implying edgyzard X isn't a worse salamence because he is missing dat moxy
>Implying Char Y wont get raped by stealth rocks and be banished to the depths of RU where he belongs

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:44:42 No.15635012 Report

Quoted By:

>>15634852
Don't poison types absorb toxic spikes on switch? I wondered why there wasn't a similar deal for other hazards.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:47:03 No.15635109 Report

Quoted By: >>15635165

>>15634934
Charizard Y nukes like a fucking champ though.

>>15635001
DDmence doesn't even use Moxie most of the time, it prefers intimidate. You only have Moxie as a guarantee when you're scarfed/banded. Which is full retard to do this gen with choice dragon making you setup bait for people running bellydrum azumarill of all things. And even then doesn't get that perfect STAB coverage while running DD.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:47:13 No.15635114 Report

Quoted By: >>15635287

>>15635001
ChariXard has better offensive typing, access to STAB Flare Blitz, and an ability that makes it hit hard enough to OHKO most things that are important.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:47:44 No.15635135 Report

Quoted By: >>15638508

>>15634934
>GUISE, ZARD IS GOOD IF I RUN ITS MEGA ALONGSIDE MEGA BL

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:48:15 No.15635165 Report

Quoted By: >>15635309

>>15635109
CharYzard gets cockblocked by weather inducers and dedicated speshul walls.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:51:49 No.15635287 Report

Quoted By: >>15635377 >>15635426 >>15635512

>>15635114

But he gets wrecked by earthquake and SR when he switches in as regular zard. Mence has no problem 1 hit koing most threats either, except he gets a moxie boost for his troubles, and mence also has better coverage that isn't fire as his ground and or rock coverage moves hit harder. Mence can also pull off a mixed set as well.
CharX just doesn't do the job as well as Salamence does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:52:24 No.15635301 Report

Quoted By:

>>15634934
Charyzard isn't awful. He's got Drought, double STAB and access to solarbeam. Makes him a great late game janitor. But you're right, it's shit on by Tyranitar and Blissey. Maybe a Sub Focus set would work since he forces every bug and grass type out. Base 104 atk and OHKO's Ttar and calm blissey.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:52:29 No.15635309 Report

Quoted By: >>15635386 >>15636667

>>15635165
>CharYzard gets cockblocked by weather inducers and dedicated speshul walls.
Blissey switching in still gets 2KO'd and the only weather inducer who actually gives CharYzard problems is T-Tar, since it can kill Politoed/Hippowdon on the switch, Ninetales would only help it, and >hail

Even if T-Tar comes in, it's not like Charizard is pursuit weak or anything. You don't lose out unless you mispredict with solarbeam.

Hell, you can even run HP Fighting to deal with even Assault Vest T-tar.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:53:42 No.15635351 Report

Quoted By: >>15635409 >>15645338

>still playing smogon singles
>still having to worry about entry hazards
>still using 4/252/252 spreads
>not playing a game mode that's actually supported with prizes

Stay pleb.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:54:31 No.15635377 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635287
>But he gets wrecked by earthquake and SR when he switches in as regular zard.

Mindgames, man. Switch in as regular Zard, set up DD, Mega Evolve on the first attack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:54:54 No.15635386 Report

Quoted By: >>15635591

>>15635309
Non-Stab or Techy HP fighting against Assault Vest Tyranitar. Holy fuck am I orbit or are you smoking some outta-dis-world dank.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:55:27 No.15635409 Report

Quoted By: >>15635445

>>15635351
252/252/4 is best for a lot of situations

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:55:56 No.15635426 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635287
>Mence has no problem 1 hit koing most threats either

Mence needs Outrage to get past bulky non-steels but with Outrage it also becomes revenge bait for steel types and now fairies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:56:37 No.15635445 Report

Quoted By: >>15635660

>>15635409
Name 3 in anything that isn't smogmons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Nov 2013 23:58:43 No.15635512 Report

Quoted By: >>15635668 >>15635810

>>15635287
>But he gets wrecked by earthquake
And Mence is double wrecked by Ice Shard, which can still hit it at +1 DD while nothing with EQ can actually outspeed +1 DDmence without being one of those special snowflake 100+ speed choice scarfers. Who would also be the exact same kind of Pokemon easily killing Salamence, because the only notable one off the top of my head is Scarfchomp.
>and SR when he switches in as regular zard.
Which has so many things to deal with now it's not even funny considering the best user of it right now aside from Ferrothorn is fucking Carbink. It's not like you have 3-6 Pokemon on your team or anything who can handle that with unblockable defog or even the niche rapid spin.
>and mence also has better coverage that isn't fire as his ground and or rock coverage moves hit harder.
That's a really, really conditional "better coverage" considering Charizard is unresisted bar Carbink and Azumarill with just STAB, both at 1.5x power alone,
>Mence can also pull off a mixed set as well.
Not even as well as Charizard who has 131/131 base offenses, and the defenses to take a few hits while Mence suffers from his coverage options being lackluster without STAB unless you're hitting SE. Dragon/Ground/Fire is okay, but you lose out on so much power trying to hit anything specially that isn't a pure defense steel wall using that uninvested fire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:00:35 No.15635591 Report

Quoted By: >>15635790 >>15635832

>>15635386
>am I orbit or are you smoking some outta-dis-world dank.
Literally 159 base special attack.

Fucking Gengar could do fine using HP Fighting at 120 base special attack back when it was 70 power.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:02:01 No.15635660 Report

Quoted By: >>15635926

>>15635445
VGC, 3v3 ranked, playing against your friends.

Min/Maxing is always how you win at number games. Why be decent at everything and be outclassed by everything who can do everything better, when you could be fantastic doing the one thing you do best?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:02:15 No.15635668 Report

Quoted By: >>15635757 >>15635763 >>15637081

>>15635512
>the best user of it right now aside from Ferrothorn is fucking Carbink

Forgetting about Skarm?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:04:44 No.15635757 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635668
Can't get it right now

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:04:57 No.15635763 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635668
>has to be chain bred to Skarmory from a previous generation skarmory who got it via TM, or an Aerodactyl
>Can't get previous gen Skarmory until Pokebank
>Aerodactyl can't get it until Pokebank

Some people play the actual game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:05:44 No.15635790 Report

Quoted By: >>15635982

>>15635591
>Fucking Gengar could do fine using HP Fighting at 120 base special attack back when it was 70 power.

>252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 192-229 (47.52 - 56.68%) -- 26.17% chance to 2HKO

>252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Fighting vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 177-213 (43.81 - 52.72%) -- 18.36% chance to 2HKO

Nah, not really.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:06:11 No.15635810 Report

Quoted By: >>15636401 >>15638904

>>15635512

You act as if we aren;t getting all of our OU pokemon back in december. With things such as heatran. Rocks will also see a MASSIVE reusrgance then as well. Right now in this sheltered meta, Char x is the best DD sweeper. But once december rolls out and all of the older mons transfer through, moxie mence will be the way to go again. And I would hardly call ground or rock "conditional" coverage, you hit more things super effectively with those types than you do with fire.

Moxie mence hits harder with his dragon stabs (moxie) and with his ground/rock coverage, and still hits everything he has to hit with fire hard with fire blast. And on top of that, you have your mega slot free for something else.

Sure you could use your mega char X and he will do his job well, it's just Salamence does the job better. Char X has better 2neutral" coverage, whereas mence has better SE coverage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:06:45 No.15635832 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635591
Base 159 special versus 100/100 that gets it's special defence DOUBLED from sand and the vest. Yeah, no. You are smoking something fierce.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:08:14 No.15635899 Report

Quoted By: >>15636005

>>15634590
>Let's make a rapid spinner
GF would neve say this. they don't pander to Smogon audience

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:08:39 No.15635926 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635660
Except that's totally wrong. It's not about being decent at everything, it's about avoiding OHKOs with smart bulk. You're super wrong about VGC, at most you should have 1 4/252/252 spread and that's usually on your barely used fixer. It's also not true in 3v3, where you need the bulk in case of surprise attacks, but they do work. So, you kinda have one and a half. Maybe. I mean, my friends mostly play VGC, so really you get a half, but it was better than nothing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:10:00 No.15635982 Report

Quoted By: >>15636039 >>15636167

>>15635790
Switching in, those are some really, really unappealing numbers to Tyranitar.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:10:39 No.15636005 Report

Quoted By: >>15636089

>>15635899
Gamefreak went to surprising lengths to make most gen 6 Pokémon viable for competitive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:11:41 No.15636039 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635982
Nigga forgets LO Gengar hits harder than Charyzard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:12:44 No.15636089 Report

Quoted By: >>15636215 >>15636360

>>15636005
isn't this just coincidence?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:13:08 No.15636107 Report

Quoted By:

>Can't OHKO Mega Blastoise

How shitty is your set up?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:14:40 No.15636167 Report

Quoted By: >>15636521 >>15636808

>>15635982
One is max Sp. Def Ttar and the other is a theoretical max HP, minal Sp. Def Ttar with Vest. Max Sp. Def Ttar with Vest would take much less.

252 SpA Charyzard Hidden Power Fighting vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 136-164 (33.66 - 40.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Charyzard Hidden Power Fighting vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 100-120 (24.75 - 29.7%) -- possible 4HKO

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:15:42 No.15636215 Report

Quoted By: >>15636273

>>15636089
No, something is definitely up with those starter stats.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:17:06 No.15636273 Report

Quoted By: >>15636431

>>15636215

I dunno man, they clearly screwed Delphox and Chesnaught kinda wishes it got a couple extra things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:18:18 No.15636319 Report

Quoted By: >>15643855 >>15645036

Mega-Venusaur can heal itself and has great bulk. Would it make sense to maximize defenses instead of HP? I mean, would it heal itself better with Giga Drain having less HP?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:19:18 No.15636360 Report

Quoted By: >>15636476

>>15636089
They balance around VGC and 3v3 singles. That's why you get so many weird abilities that Smogon can't figure out why GF have given pokemon but actually turn out to be really useful in VGC. It also explains why SR is so strong and sticky web being a thing - the first is to make an entry hazard worth using in these faster games and sticky web I suspect is an attempt to break the mass use of thundrus-t in VGC.

GF is actually pretty decent at balancing around lv50 mons in fast game types. The reason most of the imbalance Smogon throws up exists is because they're playing the game in a way that is neither supported nor considered when GF is trying to balance the competitive aspect. That's also why smogon is completely retarded for clinging onto lv100 singles fwiw (OHKOs are a lot rarer at lv50, just due to the way things work out).

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:20:21 No.15636401 Report

Quoted By: >>15636563

>>15635810
>You act as if we aren;t getting all of our OU pokemon back in december.
I'm going by how things are going on Pokebank OU, which has all of those options available. That only brings in more defoggers, more rapid spinners, and it's not even like Stealth Rocks damage is ever guaranteed. You could just lead with X, bait out something trying to stop your weather, boost up, sweep.
>But once december rolls out and all of the older mons transfer through, moxie mence will be the way to go again.
>And I would hardly call ground or rock "conditional" coverage, you hit more things super effectively with those types than you do with fire.
You don't, actually. That's 5 types with Ground, and another 3 types with Rock. And most of those bar Earthquake's Steel are already hit neutrally and likely killed by Outrage.
>Moxie mence hits harder with his dragon stabs (moxie) and with his ground/rock coverage,
Assuming you get a kill off, or are able to scare anything away in the first place. Dragon is your only guaranteed coverage people will think you have since running Salamence with fly is retarded. Charizard can scare away anything that's afraid of fire or flying because CharYzard uses those and actually get a boost off. Salamence doesn't get that pleasure unless it's running Intimidate to lower an opponent's attack.
>and still hits everything he has to hit with fire hard with fire blast.
Are you legitimately trying to use Salamence's fire coverage in an argument against Charizard

>it's just Salamence does the job better.
If hitting softer from both ends of the spectrum after STAB, having lower defense, and relying on being able to kill to boast anything at all despite your only STAB option being hard countered this gen by fairies, not being able to scare anything away. The only legitimate things you have over Charizard X is "only" taking 25% from SR without team support the first time you swap in if you get scared off by something, and Draco Meteor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:20:36 No.15636410 Report

Quoted By:

>>15634852
stealth rock should activate weakness policy

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:21:06 No.15636431 Report

Quoted By: >>15636648 >>15636757

>>15636273
Chesnaught has the bulkiest physical stats of basically any fully evolved starter that has been released to date. Fire, Ice, and Flying are really predictable attack types. It gets Spikes and Leech Seed, and a typing that gives it enough opportunity to scared key threats, such as physical Ttar and Ferrothorn.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:22:38 No.15636476 Report

Quoted By: >>15636871

>>15636360
> That's why you get so many weird abilities that Smogon can't figure out why GF have given pokemon but actually turn out to be really useful in VGC
They can figure out the double battle abilities just fine, a ton using them to their advantages when tons of smogon users themselves entered VGCs the past few years.
If anything, the thing they complain about is shit like slow start and Stall.
>and sticky web I suspect is an attempt to break the mass use of thundrus-t in VGC.
But it's immune to sticky web

what would that even

I agree with pretty much everything else though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:23:41 No.15636521 Report

Quoted By: >>15643311

>>15636167
> Max Sp. Def Ttar with Vest
Are there people that legitimately use this

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:25:03 No.15636563 Report

Quoted By: >>15636701 >>15637067 >>15639175

>>15636401

You are literally retarded and have no clue what you are talking about if you think fire hits more things SUPER EFFECTVIELY than ground and rock coverage does.

And yes Salamence does the job better, because he
hits
harder
He also has
better
super effective
coverage

All char X has going for it, is that it has better NEUTRAL coverage
Salamence hits more things super effectively harder since his EQ's and stone edges well out damage charizards. And The mention of fire blast was to show you how redundant having a hard shitting flare blitz is when fire blast does the job just as well.
You also will have more opportunities to switch in with mence since he is EQ immune and he doesn't care about SR whereas zard does, badly.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:27:13 No.15636648 Report

Quoted By: >>15636778

>>15636431

I'm not saying it's bad, it clearly has quite a few advantages. I guess the slight disappointment from lack of Mach/Drain Punch is setting in. The problem I have is Delphox, which has good stats, but has a very lacking movepool compared to other psychic types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:27:45 No.15636667 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635309
Assault Vest Goodra. CharizardY can't do shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:28:40 No.15636701 Report

Quoted By: >>15636758

>>15636563
>Salamence
>better Super Effective coverage

Salamence if anything has worse coverage since it only gets unboosted fire moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:30:26 No.15636757 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636431
Chesnaught isn't 2HKO'd by MBlaziken in Rain.

And I mean with MBlaziken using Flare Blitz.
Chesnaught don't need to run 252 HP / 252 Def to do that either. It needs around 236 in Def and just some like 80/104 in HP and can stand those hits.

Hell, I usually see Blaziken with Brave Bird and a lot of Mons with Flying type attacks in their teams that are physically based just to not be cockblocked by Chesnaught.

The Chesnut isn't the best, but get the job done. Resisting key Rock/Ground/Water types is a lot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:30:25 No.15636758 Report

Quoted By: >>15636907

>>15636701

Salamence hits harder with his rock and ground coverage.
Charizard only hits harder with fire coverage, which barely matters as fire blast does the job either way.

So yes Salamence has better super effective coverage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:30:52 No.15636778 Report

Quoted By: >>15637046

>>15636648
Delphox has decent coverage besides Ttar and eventually Heatran when it gets released.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:31:46 No.15636808 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636167
>using hidden power fighting
>not running focus miss

That's your problem.
If you wanted hydro pump to stop missing you should have used water gun.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:33:13 No.15636871 Report

Quoted By: >>15640197

>>15636476
Yet they always start analysis threads with "why did they give this x? It would be so much better with y!". You say a ton of Smogon users enter VGC - that's true, purely because they're such a large community. Their analysis for VGC is really piss poor, to the extent that I can't remember having ever seen a smogon set in worlds for the past 2 years. Like, they just do not work because they keep saying "252 atk/252 spd" which then miss the OHKO (due to no hazards plus other players EVing defences against such sets) and get wrecked.

As for sticky web, you've missed the point though what you're saying is valid - it's only really usefully available on Galvantula in doubles. Would you use Galvantula and then add another rock weakness in a metagame where the second most common pokemon is rock slide max attack adamant TTar? Now, I dunno if it'll work but slowing the opponent down is a hell of a strong thing and once you get past the low end regional battles, there's a lot of switches to counters in VGC - counters that stop being such without their speed. I think it's got a better chance to be useful than another damagin one at least.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:34:21 No.15636907 Report

Quoted By: >>15636988

>>15636758
What the fuck are you talking about? Charizard learns earthquake. The only thing it doesn't get is Stone Edge, and its Stone Edge hits super effectively LESS hard than Charixard's eutral Flare Blitz or Outrage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:36:32 No.15636988 Report

Quoted By: >>15637180 >>15639356

>>15636907

He learns earthquake but salamence hits alot harder with it, and yes that matters.

>its Stone Edge hits super effectively LESS hard than Charixard's eutral Flare Blitz

On what? ludicolo?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:37:49 No.15637046 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636778

Grass Knot kinda helps against Tyranitar, but it has so much special bulk anyways that it doesn't really help that much. Houndoom walls it pretty easily as well. I dunno, it feels lacking in a movepool sense, the only real positive is that it doesn't have to run HP Fire like some other psychics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:38:23 No.15637067 Report

Quoted By: >>15637189 >>15637234

>>15636563
>You are literally retarded and have no clue what you are talking about if you think fire hits more things SUPER EFFECTVIELY than ground and rock coverage does.
That's two moves though. Your entire moveset would consist of Dragon/Ground/Rock with dragon dance. Yes, that's okay coverage, there's still going to be a ton of neutral (5+3+1=9 types, half the time you're locked into outrage, 9 types are still all neutral to you, there are fairies and steels who are immune/resistant to EQ so you're hitting for 100 power on those compared to Charizard running 180, only 20 lower than if you were to be hitting SE)

>All char X has going for it, is that it has better NEUTRAL coverage
You forget it's neutral STAB coverage.
So 200 power off your stone miss on a total of four types, or 180 power off a flare blitz.
>Salamence hits more things super effectively harder since his EQ's and stone edges well out damage charizards.
>And The mention of fire blast was to show you how redundant having a hard shitting flare blitz is when fire blast does the job just as well.
When you can't use it for any sort of actual coverage in Gen 6? Steels are fine and dead, but you aren't doing shit to a fairy with that. Run DD/EQ/FB/Outrage and get hard countered by both azumarill and togekiss.
>You also will have more opportunities to switch in with mence since he is EQ immune
Literally charizard
He isn't even scared out and away by anything not named Scarf Garchomp because he's neutral to or resists all forms of priority thanks to the fire/dragon, whereas Salamence shits itself if your huge moxie bonus is against a Mamoswine.
>and he doesn't care about SR whereas zard does, badly.
Yeah, Salamence "only" loses 25% of its health and Stealth Rocks is automatically set every single time Charizard is entered into a battle despite the overabundance of defog.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:38:48 No.15637081 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635668
...Tyranitar. Seriously, what?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:41:18 No.15637180 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636988
You are such a fucking retard.

>Stone Edge's BP is 100
>Super Effectively it has the equivalent of 200

>Charizard's Flare Blitz has 120 BP
>gets bosted by STAB to 180
>gets boosted by Tough Claws to 239

Charizard doesn't even want Stone Edge if it get hit neutrall with Flare Blitz. It at most needs Stone Edge if it wants to hit Gyarados AND doesn't want to be locked into Outrage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:41:31 No.15637189 Report

Quoted By: >>15637224 >>15637334

>>15637067

>whereas Salamence shits itself if your huge moxie bonus is against a Mamoswine.

Not him but that's a pretty retarded statement to come out with. It seems like you are grasping at straws here, why would you attempt a sweep with a hard check like mammoswine still knocking about on the opponents team?

That would be like starting a sweep with mega Char x while the opponent still has heatran about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:42:50 No.15637224 Report

Quoted By:

>>15637189
Char X usually carries EQ.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:43:02 No.15637234 Report

Quoted By: >>15637334

>>15637067
You're comparing just them by base Stats.
Thanks to Tough Claw, the damage output in MegaZard X is way more than Salamence with contact moves.
Flare Blitz gets 234 power asuming STAB and Tough Claws if hits neutral. Same with Outrage.
Dragon Claw gets around 162 power so it's almost as powerful as Mence's Outrage.

MegaZard X have a higher damage output than MegaBlaziken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:46:14 No.15637334 Report

Quoted By: >>15638155

>>15637189
>That would be like starting a sweep with mega Char x while the opponent still has heatran about.
How does Heatran scare +1 Charizard X?
It outspeeds, Heatran can't do anything back besides get 2KO'd by Charizard's third attack unless it's EQ against Balloontran.
And even worse if Heatran is trying to switch in because it would basically always go
>+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Charizard ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 169-199 (52.32 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 226-266 (76.09 - 89.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Charizard ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 169-199 (52.32 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>>15637234
You're not factoring in Life Orb.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:54:57 No.15637669 Report

Quoted By: >>15637724

god this edgezard fag has been in so many threads since yesterday

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:56:18 No.15637724 Report

Quoted By:

>>15637669
How have you argued with me this many times and continue to stay this mad about salamence being outclassed

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:57:23 No.15637774 Report

Quoted By:

>>15634590
Yeah because Gamefreak gives a shit that most people shove rocks up their own asses and ejaculate while moaning "STEALTH ROCKS" loud enough for everyone to hear.

Hazards are fine, but having your entire team depend on them is all kinds of wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 00:58:52 No.15637827 Report

Quoted By: >>15638101

He still won't be OU.

Wasting your Mega Slot on a Spinner when you can have Excadrill or Starmie AND one of the hyper offensive Megas?

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 469.png, 18KiB, 180x180

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:05:43 No.15638101 Report

Quoted By: >>15638448 >>15644052

>>15637827
Who's the best Pokemon to run Defog on?

I was thinking pic related, but I dont know if he'd survive long enough to do anything else useful.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:06:52 No.15638155 Report

Quoted By: >>15638239 >>15638244

>>15637334
Don't mean to interrupt but I think CharXzard has a pretty good chance of KOing itself in the process because of LifeOrb then?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:09:22 No.15638239 Report

Quoted By:

>>15638155
This guy. I like you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:09:31 No.15638244 Report

Quoted By: >>15638390

>>15638155
Life Orb is to represent for Tough Claws. It can't even have Life Orb. Only thing I see it killing itself with is Flare Blitz, which wouldn't be used on heatran

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:13:36 No.15638390 Report

Quoted By: >>15638467 >>15638492

>>15638244
Isn't Tough Claws 20% extra damage and Life Orb 30% at the cost of 10% health per attack?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:15:05 No.15638448 Report

Quoted By:

>>15638101
Naw nigger, Gliscor and Scizor are top users. Mostly Gliscor. Yanmega is better at kamikaze.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:15:25 No.15638467 Report

Quoted By:

>>15638390
Tough claws is either 30% or 50%

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:16:07 No.15638492 Report

Quoted By:

>>15638390
They believe it's x1.33.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:16:38 No.15638508 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635135
that actually makes me wonder why isn't there a tag-team meta

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:24:35 No.15638768 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635001
>muh Moxie
>not realizing that Moxie is only useful to compensate for being Choice-locked, and doesn't actually make a difference when compared to a +1, non-Choice Locked DDMence

I ran the calcs and a +1/Jolly DDMence with Life Orb (which it doesn't even usually run, so I'm being generous here) can OHKO all but 9 OU Pokemon, or 6 if you've got Stealth Rock up. +1/Jolly EdgyZard, on the the other hand, can OHKO all but 7 OU Pokemon, or 4 or if you've got Stealth Rock up.

So the "extra power" of Moxie is largely irrelevant, since you're still OHKOing things without it. And since EdgyZard actually OHKO's a couple more things than DDMence, that makes him a better sweeper than DDMence if you can deal with the initial Fire/Flying switch-in.

Dexter 0559-7351-6257 Fighting Safari: Meditite, Tyrogue, Sawk

Dexter 0559-7351-6257 Fighting Safari: Meditite, Tyrogue, Sawk Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:26:30 No.15638830 Report

Quoted By:

>>15634590
You have such a hazard-boner. Chill the fuck out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:26:50 No.15638839 Report

Quoted By:

>"Lets make a rapid spinner with no recovery whatsoever and an offensive ability to suit it's role as a Tank"

>"While we're at it, lets make an unblockable hazard deleter"

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:28:21 No.15638904 Report

Quoted By:

>>15635810
>Char X has better 2neutral" coverage, whereas mence has better SE coverage.

You're talking shit.

They'll both be running Dragon Dance/Outrage/Flare Blitz (Fire Blast)/Earthquake. It just so happens that Charizard X gets STAB on two of those moves rather than just one.

Suggesting that Salamence has "better SE coverage" even though they run the same goddamn set and Charizard gets more STABs on it is fucking ridiculous.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:35:00 No.15639175 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636563
>And yes Salamence does the job better, because he hits harder. He also has better
super effective coverage.

Salamence "hits harder" by less than 5 extra Base Attack points. That's it. He's got Base 135 while ZardX has Base 130. Even that difference is tempered by the fact that Salamence only gets a 1.3x boost from Life Orb (assuming it runs it instead of Lum Berry) whereas ZardX gets a 1.33x boost from Tough Claws. Their difference in effective power at Level 100 is literally only 2 points (except on EQ, where Salamence does hit noticeably harder, but it doesn't matter because ZardX only needs EQ to beat Heatran and Azumarill and he OHKOs them anyway).

And they run THE EXACT SAME FUCKING DD SET so I'm honestly baffled how you think Salamence gets better SE coverage. Its simply untrue.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 01:39:10 No.15639356 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636988

You are fucking clueless about how Base Powers work, aren't you?

Stone Edge will only hit harder than Outrage/Flare Blitz if the enemy either a) resist both Outrage/Flare Blitz or b) is x4 weak to Stone Edge.

And of course, Fire/Dragon is such amazing coverage that the only Pokemon that do resist both Outrage and Flare Blitz are Heatran, Azumarill, and fucking Carbink. None of which you would even use Stone Edge on.

Please learn to Pokemon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:01:53 No.15640197 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636871
Because smogon sets that aren't under VGC is meant for singles, not doubles.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 006Charizard-Mega_X.png, 1001KiB, 1280x1280

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:15:01 No.15640648 Report

Quoted By: >>15640684 >>15641786

>people thinking DDmence is better than edgyzard

I don't care how much you hate him, they hit for the same amount and edgyzard has way the fuck better stab and neutrality to ice. And he doesn't have the worst 3D model in the game like mence.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:16:05 No.15640684 Report

Quoted By: >>15641786

>>15640648
>dat image quality
>dat edge
>dem glorious shoulder spikes
cum inside me please

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:44:53 No.15641786 Report

Quoted By: >>15641855 >>15641884 >>15641971 >>15642035

>>15640648
>>15640684
Yeh, everyone is misrepresenting what DDmence is compared CharXzard.

DD Mence is bulkier and resistant to both of M-Blaziken's stabs as well as having the intimidate to reduce strength of Phys sweepers, and only needs 1 DD to outspeed base 130s.

If you're running Mence, it's going to be because it's more survivable/bulkier and want to keep your mega slot open, rather than because it's a better janitor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:46:56 No.15641855 Report

Quoted By: >>15642394

>>15641786
>bulkier
nigga wat?

1247-0122-1521

1247-0122-1521 Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:47:59 No.15641884 Report

Quoted By: >>15642394

>>15641786
>and only needs 1 DD to outspeed base 130s.
this is also true of Xzard

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:50:32 No.15641971 Report

Quoted By: >>15642289 >>15642394

>>15641786
>DD Mence is bulkier
mence has 95-80-80 defenses, while Megazard has 79-111-85.. Megazard is also bulkier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:52:10 No.15642035 Report

Quoted By: >>15642394

>>15641786

>Mence is bulkier

lol wut?

>only needs 1 DD to outspeed base 130s

You realize they have the same speed, right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:58:10 No.15642289 Report

Quoted By: >>15642347

>>15641971
don't get no intimidate

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 02:59:49 No.15642347 Report

Quoted By: >>15642394

>>15642289

Intimidate is great and all, but hopefully you don't try to do something retarded like set up on your counter. It won't help when they switch in on you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:01:09 No.15642394 Report

Quoted By: >>15642612 >>15642699

>>15641855
>>15641971
Char X zard has better defense and slightly better SpD, but sala has more HP to work with and a solid resistance table, along with intimidate which gives it more effective defense on the first thing it comes in on.

>>15642035
>>15641884
I should have added with minimal investment. The entire thing about Mence is that it's a natural blaziken counter because of it's bulk, intimidate, and typing.

Both could forgo the extra speed EVs and take a speed neutral nature, but Salamence is going to make better use of the bulk than Charizard will.

CharXzard will die to both Rock Slide and High Jump Kick after rocks damage (this is switching in on rocks while already mega'd, not switching in as regular zard then mega'd).

As I was saying, the two do different jobs, one being there to come in and tank most things while having DD to allow for sweeping, and the other having more raw power packed in for full sweeping duties. Of course you also have to talk about the value of your mega slot as well.

>>15642347
It's there to act as a counter to certain things rather than just being a straightforward sweeper.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:03:47 No.15642486 Report

Quoted By:

>79/120/115
In what universe is that not able to be OHKOd

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:07:45 No.15642612 Report

Quoted By: >>15642839

>>15642394

>investing in mence's bulk to use it as a Blaziken counter instead of just using it to sweep

Do you not know that Azumarill exists and that he also resists both stabs and always OHKOs with Aqua Jet? Or Talonflame? Are you just retarded? Mence has way better things to do than be a tank. Just use Gyra if you want a bulky offensive mon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:09:04 No.15642651 Report

Quoted By: >>15642886

>>15634590

>complaining about making Blastoise good

Fuck you Venusaur.

Glad your ass got nerfed with no more permasun.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:10:32 No.15642699 Report

Quoted By: >>15642839

>>15642394
>The entire thing about Mence is that it's a natural blaziken counter because of it's bulk, intimidate, and typing.
>Stone Edge

A counter has to be able to switch in on any set, live, and force whatever it switched in on out.

Salamence is in no way a counter to Blaziken, its a check, at best.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:12:43 No.15642793 Report

Quoted By:

Blaziken has already been banned, guys

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:14:21 No.15642839 Report

Quoted By: >>15643049

>>15642612
Azumarill is not a hard counter. It can't guarantee OHKO with jet, and dies on switch in.

Talonflame is the exact same shit, not being able to switch in on rocks.

Also note that NEITHER of these can scare out a blaziken repeatedly either, since the switch in damage isn't getting consistently dealt with.

The only pokemon that does a better job at stopping M-Blaziken in it's tracks is Slowbro.

>>15642699
I did the calcs m8.

Adamant@LO/Lefties
132 HP/196 Atk/68 Def/108 Spe
-Dragon Claw/Rock Slide/Rock Tomb
-EQ
-Dragon Dance
-Roost

Can switch in on anything but Stone Edge and still take a stone edge on the following turn while getting a guaranteed OHKO on blaziken, even if they are bothering to go bulk over speed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:15:49 No.15642886 Report

Quoted By: >>15642938

>>15642651
All they fucking had to do was give Blastoise Shell Smash or Curse again and MAYBE a decent recovery move, like Slack Off.

But no, they give it a useless ability that affects all of three moves, one of which is barely better than the STAB Blastoise had already (if at all) and another of a type thats not useful at all. So that leaves Aura Sphere, which I guess is at least better than Focus Miss.

All I wanted was to make some fun, gimmicky offensive sets like Curse/Aqua Jet and fire off some Shell Smash boosted Water Spouts, but GF has disappointed me yet again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:17:35 No.15642938 Report

Quoted By: >>15643173

>>15642886
We don't necessarily know if it can't get Shell Smash/Slack Off yet, unless someone already tried to breed those in.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1383504366326.jpg, 38KiB, 440x493

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:18:43 No.15642967 Report

Quoted By: >>15643043 >>15643255

>all this blaziken buttmad
If you guys would do anything that isn't bog-standard-predictable you'd see how little of an issue it really is. Mega-B is only annoying as a lead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:21:07 No.15643043 Report

Quoted By: >>15643255

>>15642967
Yes, that's why you run a counter for it, so you can scare it off. any time it's a lead or coming in as a revenge kill, it's going to present issue.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:21:21 No.15643049 Report

Quoted By: >>15643321 >>15643370

>>15642839
>Can switch in on anything but Stone Edge
And that right there is why its not a counter, as I said before.

It has to be able to switch in on ANY set and ANY move Blaziken might carry, live and KO/scare it away to be a counter. It can't switch in on Stone Edge and live the following turn to get a KO/scare Blaziken off, so its not a counter.

There's no room for debate here, its not a counter by definition.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1381682807112.gif, 2MiB, 300x191

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:22:43 No.15643084 Report

Quoted By: >>15643264 >>15643354 >>15643379

>A Mega Kangaskhan just took out my entire team

What the hell? Why did no one tell me about her double striking potential?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:26:10 No.15643173 Report

Quoted By:

>>15642938
I assume it doesn't or we probably would have seen them already. Shell Smash would be the first thing people would want to breed to it, I would think.

It only got Curse through TM in Gen. II so I'm not hopeful it'll get it back eve though fucking Venusaur.

Unless it gets some new move I'm not aware of yet, Blastoise still remains the ONLY STARTER out of all six games to not have a move that boosts either of its offensive stats. Meanwhile, Venusaur gets Swords Dance and Curse, Charizard has Dragon Dance, Hone Claws and Swords Dance, Feraligatr gets Swords Dance, Hone Claws and Dragon Dance, etc. etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:29:04 No.15643255 Report

Quoted By:

>>15642967
>>15643043
If you HAVE to run a counter for it in order for it to not wipe the floor with the rest of your team, its overcentralizing and greatly hurting diversity.

That's why it was banned in the first place. Its not about whether or not a counter exists, its about whether or not you have to carry that hard counter to not lose to it every single game.

Teams aren't going to be very diverse if every single one needs a Blaziken counter to not get destroyed by Blaziken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:29:23 No.15643264 Report

Quoted By:

>>15643084

That's why you gotta carry a Support Ghost on the team because MegaKanga has severe Four Moveslot syndrome.

Also, support ghost

Are Immune to Power-Up Punch and Return
Carry WoW

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:31:20 No.15643311 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636521
i use it on wifi
pretty tank with sand

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:31:45 No.15643321 Report

Quoted By: >>15643794

>>15643049
nobody runs that move m8. You don't get to tailor a moreset specifically to a single counter then say "it's not a counter"

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:32:40 No.15643354 Report

Quoted By:

>>15643084
This kills the focus sash.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:33:16 No.15643370 Report

Quoted By: >>15643794

>>15643049
Of course, if you want to argue that, then Talonflame can't switch in on stone edge, nor can Azumarill switch in on any of it's other moves, so they're definitely not counters.

It's the closest thing to a hard counter you're going to see that isn't slowbro, and even then, it's still likely acting as a hard counter because people would rather run the safer rock slide that still kills talonflame after rocks, and can kill azumarill (especially if the azu switches in on one of it's stabs)

So if you're going to suggest talonflame/azu as a counter, then I'm going to still recommend salamence who can do the job better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:33:35 No.15643379 Report

Quoted By: >>15643547

>>15643084
Max def Avalugg counters it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:39:36 No.15643547 Report

Quoted By: >>15643624 >>15643794

>>15643379
252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Custom): 122-146 (60.39 - 72.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(122, 126, 126, 128, 128, 132, 132, 134, 134, 138, 138, 140, 140, 144, 144, 146)

252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 134-158 (66.33 - 78.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(134, 134, 138, 138, 140, 140, 144, 144, 146, 146, 150, 150, 152, 152, 156, 158)

Nope.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:42:12 No.15643624 Report

Quoted By: >>15643679

>>15643547
We were talking about Kangaskhan.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO wd.png, 328KiB, 1168x278

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:43:15 No.15643654 Report

Quoted By: >>15643729

need help with my showdown team

these 4 are working very well for me, just hit 1800 ELO. Scolipede has swords dance / baton pass, and Gourgeist is small with subseed / protect / will-o-wisp

My problem is that I keep changing the last two sports, and I can't find a combo that actually helps my team. What two pokemon should I use? Ideally one should be have special bulk. And I should probably have a hazard user/remover, but I'm not sure

please give me your good ideas

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:44:12 No.15643679 Report

Quoted By: >>15643761 >>15643891

>>15643624
252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 202-238 (100 - 117.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's without adding the attack boost it gets in mega form.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:45:35 No.15643729 Report

Quoted By: >>15643751

>>15643654
Drop sub and protect on Gourgeist and get some attacking moves on that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:46:18 No.15643751 Report

Quoted By: >>15643833

>>15643729
but its attacks are shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:46:40 No.15643761 Report

Quoted By: >>15643792

>>15643679
We were talking about Avalugg and Kangaskhan.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:46:48 No.15643766 Report

Quoted By:

Big Root or leftovers for Gogoat

Also, Delphox is a decent Trick Scarf user with coverage over most walls

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:47:44 No.15643792 Report

Quoted By: >>15643874 >>15643915

>>15643761
Yes, and that's Avalugg vs. Khangaskhan.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:47:51 No.15643794 Report

Quoted By: >>15643858 >>15643891

>>15643370
Well, I never said Azumarill or Talonflame were counters in the first place, so yes, you're right to say neither of them are counters either. Talonflame and Azumarill are checks, like Salamence.

Blaziken simply has very, very few counters (one of which is Slowbro, as you already pointed out.) That's a big reason it was banned in the first place, few counters and you needed to carry one to not get curb-stomped every time.

>>15643321
Yes, they do. Stone Edge and Rock Slide are good coverage moves and are recommended on many sets.

>>15643547
Kangaskhan, not Blaziken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:49:16 No.15643833 Report

Quoted By: >>15643872

>>15643751
Seed Bomb and Shadow Sneak. Enjoy your new Aegislash and Gengar check.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:50:08 No.15643855 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636319
More health = More healing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:50:20 No.15643858 Report

Quoted By: >>15644060

>>15643794
Yes, which is why I'm going to keep on carrying my salamence who is a reasonable hard counter against every sensible blaziken player (since it still kills max HP blazikens running the safer countering option for Azu/Talonflame/Gyarados) until he gets his ass to ubers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:50:51 No.15643872 Report

Quoted By: >>15643986

>>15643833
ill try it and see if it works. but at that point i should run supersize and get rid of leech seed

any ideas for the other 2 slots? I can't find the right two mons who help out the core

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:50:52 No.15643874 Report

Quoted By: >>15643915 >>15644060 >>15644165

>>15643792
Yes, and those calcs are wrong.

Return: 32.82 - 38.93%

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 123-145 (31.21 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Atk adjusted for Mega Evo.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:51:26 No.15643891 Report

Quoted By: >>15644060

>>15643794
see >>15643679

Also,
>Stone Edge and Rock Slide
you're running rock slide.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:52:21 No.15643915 Report

Quoted By: >>15644165

>>15643874
>>15643792
Yes, and those calcs are wrong.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 123-145 (31.21 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Atk adjusted for Mega Evo.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:54:41 No.15643986 Report

Quoted By: >>15644089

>>15643872
Keep Leech Seed and go Super. A lot of threats will do about as much or less than LS recovery after WoW. Works charms against Excadrill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:56:39 No.15644052 Report

Quoted By:

>>15638101
Ive seen a top tier player running swanna with defog. I thought it was weak as hell but it came at me with tail wind and rain dance obliterating my team. Maybe im just bad

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:56:53 No.15644060 Report

Quoted By: >>15644165 >>15644278

>>15643891
see
>>15643874
Those calcs are wrong, Avalugg stands up to Kangaskhan just fine.

>>15643858
>who is a reasonable hard counter
>hard counter
But its not a fucking hard counter, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. It's a CHECK, not a counter. They are very, VERY different things and there is no room for interpretation here.

Just stop calling Salamence a counter because its not, that's all. I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying beyond your misuses of the term "counter" in this context. Salamence is not a counter to Blaziken by definition.

But, as you said, it'll be uber soon enough anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 03:57:44 No.15644089 Report

Quoted By:

>>15643986
cool ill try it, thanks

i do like small gourgeist as a rotom-w counter though, because it cant break through substitute and you can outspeed it to subblock WoW

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:00:56 No.15644165 Report

Quoted By: >>15644312

>>15643874
>>15643915
>>15644060
I see where I fucked it up, I had my levels set wrong from when I switched it to blaziken.

Adjusted numbers

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 204-240 (51.77 - 60.91%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan (Power-Up Punch) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 56-66 (14.21 - 16.75%) -- possible 6HKO

It will survive if the khangas has no setup.

0 Atk (custom) Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 148-175 (42.16 - 49.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(148, 150, 151, 153, 156, 157, 159, 160, 162, 163, 166, 168, 169, 171, 172, 175)

There is NO WAY for avalugg to kill khangaskhan while surviving should khanghas have any setup. In addition, khangas can PUP on the second turn to ensure you die before your third hit. He ain't no counter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:04:55 No.15644278 Report

Quoted By:

>>15644060
>But its not a fucking hard counter, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. It's a CHECK, not a counter. They are very, VERY different things and there is no room for interpretation here.
Except you are disagreeing with you on the point that you mistakenly assume people will risk Stone Edge over Rock Slide for something they don't even realize is feasible as a counter when using a rock slide set.

That's the entire point I'm getting at. If it were reasonable to run Stone Edge over Rock Slide, then you'd have a point with me misusing the term.

But as it stands, Rock Slide is:
-Safer
-Deals with the same known threats
-has the fringe benefit of giving you a flinch chance when you use it because you will almost always outspeed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:06:06 No.15644312 Report

Quoted By: >>15644408 >>15644536

>>15644165
If Avalugg uses Curse the same turn that Kang PUPs, Avalugg will win.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:09:08 No.15644408 Report

Quoted By: >>15644536

>>15644312
Avalugg with Recover and Rocky Helmet also wins by virtue of irony.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:13:32 No.15644536 Report

Quoted By: >>15644626 >>15644686

>>15644312
No, it won't. Every turn it uses curse is a turn it doesn't use avalanche. So it has to take the switch in hit, the dual PUPs (that deal more damage than I listed because the second hit is 1.5x), then the returns after that, which it isn't going to be able to take more than 2 of.

>>15644408
This is the thing that would feasibly stop it, though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:16:43 No.15644626 Report

Quoted By:

>>15644536
Of course that comes with the huge qualifier of the Khanga needing to be completely unboosted, and not having boosted on the turn you switch in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:18:59 No.15644686 Report

Quoted By: >>15644889

>>15644536
After Avalanche it can 2HKO Mega Kangaskhan. If it only attacks, it 3HKO's it. There is no reason NOT to use Curse.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:22:03 No.15644768 Report

Quoted By: >>15644800

>>15635001
You're that guy from yesterday that kept on sucking Salamence's dick aren't you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:23:16 No.15644800 Report

Quoted By: >>15644845

>>15644768

You're that guy from yesterday who knows nothing about competitive battling and sucks charizards dick aren't you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:24:50 No.15644845 Report

Quoted By:

>>15644800
Nope, I was one of the other anons that called you up on you bullshit.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1383506300772s.jpg, 3KiB, 124x124

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:26:09 No.15644882 Report

Quoted By:

>Rock/Steel-types are affected by Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:26:25 No.15644889 Report

Quoted By: >>15644984 >>15644993

>>15644686
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 135-160 (35.15 - 41.66%) -- 81.64% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 102-121 (26.56 - 31.51%) -- possible 4HKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 36-44 (9.37 - 11.45%) -- 9HKO at best (first hit of PUP)

+1 252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 56-66 (14.58 - 17.18%) -- 9HKO at best (divide by two for second hit of PUP)

41.66%+31.51%+11.45%+8.59%=93.21%
At the point of this, you'll only have gotten off 1 avalanche. Your next hit can be a PUP to ensure a boost enough to kill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:29:25 No.15644984 Report

Quoted By: >>15645149

>>15644889
Those calculations are off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:29:44 No.15644993 Report

Quoted By:

>>15644889
on the low rolls, 78.37% by the time you get your first avalanche. another return guarantees kill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:31:16 No.15645036 Report

Quoted By:

>>15636319
that only matters for subseed, because you want lower HP for higher overall percentage gained back. If you're not subseeding, then get HP.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:34:14 No.15645149 Report

Quoted By:

>>15644984
had the base HP 5 too low. Doesn't change the results anyways.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 102-121 (25.88 - 30.71%) -- possible 4HKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 36-44 (9.13 - 11.16%) -- 9HKO at best

+1 252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 56-66 (14.21 - 16.75%) -- 9HKO at best (Second PUP would be 7.10 - 8.37%)

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 135-160 (34.26 - 40.6%) -- 56.18% chance to 3HKO

Low rolls on all would be: 76.37% (another return would guarantee kill)
High Rolls would still guarantee kill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:38:49 No.15645338 Report

Quoted By: >>15645495 >>15645759

>>15635351
What's the hate with the 4/252/252 spread? I've been seeing a lot of hate for that as of late.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:42:33 No.15645495 Report

Quoted By:

>>15645338
Because it wastes points. Basically speed is the only thing that should need 252 is speed (for certain speed ties)

Any other stat shouldn't need 252 unless that puts it at enough to ensure a xHKO on the low rolls after an item, as any more points is a waste of points.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 06 Nov 2013 04:49:53 No.15645759 Report

Quoted By:

>>15645338
Not doing calculations for every possible defender in every tier isn't full autism enough for the special people on /vp/.

Capcode	All Only User Posts Only Verified Posts Only Moderator Posts Only Manager Posts Only Admin Posts Only Developer Posts Only Founder Posts
Show Posts	All Only With Images Only Without Images Only Spoiler Images Only Non-Spoiler Images
Deleted Posts	All Only Deleted Posts Only Non-Deleted Posts
Ghost Posts	All Only Ghost Posts Only Non-Ghost Posts
Post Type	All Only Sticky Threads Only Opening Posts Only Reply Posts
Results	All Grouped By Threads
Order	Latest Posts First Oldest Posts First

On these archives

Your latest searches