/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #16216831

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:41:59 No.16216831 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>16217215 >>16217277 >>16217583 >>16219290

Why do people hate Smogon and their rules?

inb4 Double Team/Brightpowder

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:43:16 No.16216852 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:43:30 No.16216856 Report

Quoted By:

Double Team/Brightpowder

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:43:56 No.16216867 Report

Quoted By: >>16216874

Because it's just a bunch of playing pretend.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:44:19 No.16216874 Report

Quoted By:

>>16216867
>every vidya gaem ever

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:44:56 No.16216882 Report

Quoted By: >>16217802

The only thing I like about their rules is the sleep clause, some fucker in Japan was trying to spam sleep powder on my team and that was cheap as fuck.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:55:49 No.16217045 Report

Quoted By: >>16217137

Because they undervalue fan favourites

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:56:59 No.16217065 Report

Quoted By: >>16217104 >>16217120

just a quick question: do smogonfags even buy the games?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:58:39 No.16217104 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217065

Mostly yes

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 15:59:25 No.16217120 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217065
uh yes?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:00:14 No.16217137 Report

Quoted By: >>16217172 >>16217224

>>16217045
They don't "undervalue" anything - tiers are based entirely on usage.
Do you know how Smogon works?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:01:58 No.16217172 Report

Quoted By: >>16217216

>>16217137
>tiers are based entirely on usage.
They're power rankings to this board, rather than usage rankings.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:02:10 No.16217178 Report

Quoted By: >>16217211 >>16217251 >>16217292

Because people realized that competitive Pokemon actually takes strategy and rather than putting some effort in they'd rather bitch about evasion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:03:46 No.16217211 Report

Quoted By: >>16217525

>>16217178
i don't have time to put effort into battling

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:04:00 No.16217215 Report

Quoted By:

>>16216831
bright powder is still allowed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:04:00 No.16217216 Report

Quoted By: >>16217252

>>16217172
To be fair, nobody is going to use a shitty Pokemon when they have other, better mons to choose from.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:04:49 No.16217224 Report

Quoted By: >>16217258 >>16217265 >>16217318 >>16217319

>>16217137
Then why isn't Charizard OU or Uber? Checkmate, Smogonfags.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:04:58 No.16217225 Report

Quoted By:

People don't hate Smogon, they hate Strawgon

Smogon: A resource for competitive battling that offers a more balanced meta as an alternative to the official one.

Strawgon: Imposes this metagame on others, rather than offering it as an alternative.

Smogon: They offer a tier system to allow all Pokemon to be viable in their respective tier.

Strawgon: They impose a tier system to make it so people can't use UU, RU or NU Pokemon.

Smogon: Offers strategies for VGC metas, adapting the movesets for the lack of Sleep and Evasion clauses.

Strawgon: Can't handle sleep and evasion and doesn't know how to play without the clauses.

Smogon: Writes an analysis for every Pokemon, whether it's considered viable in OU or not. Suggesting the use of a different Pokemon is exceptionally rare, and only as an alternative.

Strawgon: Tells you what to use.

Smogon: Creates the Uber tier based on millions of games' worth of data and months of testing.

Strawgon: Bans things on a whim.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:05:51 No.16217240 Report

Quoted By: >>16217291 >>16217305

>Logic behind banning OHKO moves is that they turn the game into a coin toss
>Focus Miss literally makes or breaks a match

>Usage dictates bans
>Scoliopede doesn't break UU, but is well on its way to being banned from it because of its use in OU

My only real problems with Smogon, and I'm against OHKO moves for what it's worth.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:06:22 No.16217251 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217178
the irony in this post is that evasion is the perfect example of taking 0 skill or strategy

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:06:22 No.16217252 Report

Quoted By: >>16217655

>>16217216
i bet you love using talonflame and aegislahs, dont you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:06:42 No.16217258 Report

Quoted By: >>16217320

>>16217224
Uber isn't based on usage and Charizard isn't Overused.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:07:05 No.16217265 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217224
Sneaky Pebbles.
>Not understanding what Ubers is.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:07:51 No.16217277 Report

Quoted By:

>>16216831
Because they have no idea how it works.

They like to blame Smogon for overcentralization when they do nothing but help in that regard. The real monster of fucking up balance here is Gamefreak

Oh, and then you have the people who want smogon discussions polls to be a democracy where everyone can give their input regardless of experience and have it counted equally.

Which is fucking retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:08:33 No.16217291 Report

Quoted By: >>16217304

>>16217240
>Scoliopede doesn't break UU, but is well on its way to being banned from it because of its use in OU
you clearly have not thought this through, if you used this logic to keep pokemon in UU there would be a snowball effect and UU would be full of OU pokemon

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:08:43 No.16217292 Report

Quoted By: >>16217314 >>16217352

>>16217178
evasion is in the game
that means it can be used wheter you like it or not
what about the salamence users that spam outrage?
so they cant use that because "spamming" outrage is cheap?
pfff everybody plays the game the way they like

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:09:17 No.16217304 Report

Quoted By: >>16217375

>>16217291
This is a problem how

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:09:17 No.16217305 Report

Quoted By: >>16217380

>>16217240
If Scolipede is getting used often, he'll move to Overused - because, holy shit, he'll be overused.
Are you legitimately an idiot?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:09:54 No.16217314 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217292
Sleep is in the game

That means it can be spammed whether you like it o- oh wait.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:10:03 No.16217318 Report

Quoted By: >>16217346 >>16217350

>>16217224

Uber is different; that's an actual Banlist like BL. Which still isn't a case of undervaluing.

Although I agree I have a hard time believing Charizard isn't overused by popularity, I don't really see why they'd lie about it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:10:02 No.16217319 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217224
don't tell me you actually think charizard was used enough in OU

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:10:02 No.16217320 Report

Quoted By: >>16217393 >>16218204

>>16217258
But everyone loves Charizard, so of course it's being used by just about everyone.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:11:35 No.16217346 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217318
Because they count how much it's used on simulators. They have no way of knowing it's frequency on wifi randoms.

Charizard is rightfully NU on simulators. He's practically neverused. Although that may change this generation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:11:41 No.16217350 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217318
Charizard isn't used in pokémon showdown because the people battling know that Stealth Rock is a thing and don't choose their pokémon based on nostalgia.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:11:50 No.16217352 Report

Quoted By: >>16217395

>>16217292
>evasion is in the game
>that means it can be used wheter you like it or not

Anyone who supports evasion for multiplayer has never done multiplayer

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:12:57 No.16217375 Report

Quoted By: >>16217545

>>16217304
>skarmory wouldn't be broken in UU, let's make it UU
>skarmory is now UU, let's drop haxorus to UU
>haxorus is now UU, other powerful attackers aren't such a big deal anymore, let's make them UU
and the chain would continue forever

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:13:20 No.16217380 Report

Quoted By: >>16217421 >>16217452

>>16217305
You got me, I never figured that usage would cause a pokemon to be OU without your enlightening post, anon.

It's almost like Smogon limits what you can use in lower tiers based on something other than pokemon breaking those tiers apart.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:14:02 No.16217393 Report

Quoted By: >>16217453

>>16217320
>everyone loves Charizard
>course it's being used by just about everyone.

I have never and never will like Charizard

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:14:09 No.16217395 Report

Quoted By: >>16217420 >>16217427

>>16217352
my point is that evasion is in the game and you cant bitch about using it.
they put that shit there so why dont use it
becuase somebody tells me to not use it?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:15:36 No.16217420 Report

Quoted By: >>16217440

>>16217395
Double Team has long been a banned move from the competitive scene. It breaks the Evasion Clause that is generically applied to nearly all Smogon battles. It is considered unhealthy for a skill-based metagame, since it rewards luck instead of skill, while taking the battle from both players' control and making the game (even more) luck based. It created situations where the crucial miss changed the outcome of a match. For these reasons it is practically never seen in this competitive environment.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:15:40 No.16217421 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217380
>It's almost like Smogon limits what you can use in lower tiers
is this nigga serious? that's the entire fucking point of lower tiers, to allow an environment where common pokemon don't run dominate the game

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:15:53 No.16217427 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217395

Because everyone who plays competitively on a regular basis agrees not to use it.

Soul Dew is in the game too, do you think that should be allowed?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:16:58 No.16217440 Report

Quoted By: >>16217472 >>16217492 >>16217531

>>16217420
>implying pokemon is about skill and not about luck
then why the critical hits still exist?
pokemon is a luck based game, no matter how "skilled" you are, there will be always critical hits, focus miss etc.
its a luck based game, not a "strategy" game
deal with it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:17:48 No.16217452 Report

Quoted By: >>16217545

>>16217380
Smogon will never ban a 'mon from a lower tier other than purely based on usage. The only time they ban something regardless of usage is from OU to Uber.
If a 'mon in UU gets a buff (Scolipede gets Speed Boost), it's going to be used enough to warrant it going to OU.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:17:53 No.16217453 Report

Quoted By: >>16218116

>>16217393
Don't worry, I'm sure Bulbasaur will stop being shit one day, kiddo. It'll always be shit compared to Charizard, though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:18:31 No.16217472 Report

Quoted By: >>16217497

>>16217440
having luck elements =! luck based

allowing evasion does make it luck based however, so according to your logic, you should support its ban

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:20:02 No.16217492 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217440
TF2 is a luck based game because crits exist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:20:27 No.16217497 Report

Quoted By: >>16217554 >>16217555 >>16217575

>>16217472
why "accoreding to my logic"
i said it was a luck based game and it is.
so if luck is programmed into the game
why dont use it?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:21:46 No.16217525 Report

Quoted By: >>16218501

>>16217211
then why hating on people who does?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:22:01 No.16217531 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217440
critical hits play a vital role in breaking stalls, which is why they exist.

Just incase you thought they existed because masuda or some other jerk wanted "luck" to determine the outcome of every battle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:22:29 No.16217545 Report

Quoted By: >>16217565 >>16217641

>>16217375
This is one of the worst snowball arguments. Plenty of low tier pokemon are in there because they are severely outclassed by or butt devastated by, OU threats. Tiers are supposed to exist to grant pokemon an even playing ground, but then shit like Tentacruel gets banned from a meta where it does not cause the playing ground to be even.

>>16217452
I understand what being OU means, but having metagame tiers based around that use is asinine. It was made because it acts as a half-reliable way of determining power levels while requiring minimal effort on Smogon's part. Smogon DOES ban pokemon from tiers other than usage by the by, it's what the BL tiers are for.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:23:09 No.16217554 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217497
banning parts of a game to make it more competitive happens in every game, I don't know what you're going on about

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:23:10 No.16217555 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217497
Jesus fuck first of all lrn 2 english

Second of all, yeah, you could do that. You would be an asshole.

If any of my friends challenged me IRL and I started using a Minimize Chandelure, they would close their DS and say "Yeah, no, I'm not doing that" whether they were winning or not. Winning the battle isn't even worth the frustration.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:23:33 No.16217565 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217545
Tentacruel gets banned from a meta where it does not cause the playing ground to be *uneven.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:23:57 No.16217575 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217497
Because it's not fun.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:24:27 No.16217583 Report

Quoted By:

>>16216831
they said my bro was bad >:(
i have 2 get mad at things that dont really affect me bcuz its wut grown ups do

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:25:45 No.16217606 Report

Quoted By: >>16217620 >>16217643 >>16217645 >>16217661

I kind of hate it because they only use 15/20 pokemon out of 7xx with always the same fucking strategies which is annoying and predictable, I mean, where is originality these days?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:26:15 No.16217620 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217606
On Showderps

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:27:05 No.16217641 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217545
I don't think you understand. literally half of the pokemon in OU would be able to fit into the UU metagame without unbalancing it. so if we dropped them all down to UU, the pokemon that were UU via usage would be outshined by the OU dropdowns and it would just be OU v2

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:27:06 No.16217643 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217606
You do realize that it's even worse on wifi and VGC, right?

Fuck, at least the tiers allow for more pokemon to be functional.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:27:08 No.16217645 Report

Quoted By: >>16217663 >>16217665

>>16217606
originality is here buddy
pick 6 of them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:27:36 No.16217655 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217252
Nope. Aerodactyl and Volcarona.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:27:59 No.16217661 Report

Quoted By: >>16217707

>>16217606
In neverused and underused

Seriously, had a little underused tournament at my university just before the release of gen 6, it was the most fun I'd had playing Pokemon in years just due to the chaotic strategies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:28:00 No.16217663 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217645
>Smogon
>Mega Chicken
Are you actually retarded?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:28:10 No.16217665 Report

Quoted By: >>16217697 >>16217838

>>16217645
you forgot mega kangaskhan and mega mawile buddy

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:29:57 No.16217694 Report

Quoted By: >>16217774

I don't hate Smogon. Their house-rules are pretty sensible, and Showdown can be a fun, quick diversion.

The only problem-- and this isn't really their fault-- is that the metagame they've cultivated has transformed into a game quite different from Pokemon. And that's still not the bad part, that's fine, the bad part is that too many irrational people (both pro- and anti-Smogon) have come to view them as an authority which sets the standards for competitive Pokemon, even though they don't really play competitive Pokemon anymore.

It's especially confusing for new players. It's like if someone came around asking for tips on improving their Chess game, and everyone points them to a website where the majority of articles revolve around Bughouse.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:30:09 No.16217697 Report

Quoted By: >>16217724 >>16217838 >>16217931

>>16217665
Are people really still having problems with these two?

It's pretty pathetic.

Mawile is walled by any bulky steel type

Kanghaskhan loses to any ghost that runs wil-o-wisp unless megamom runs crunch, in which case it loses out on priority.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:30:48 No.16217707 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217661
that's more to do with the fact that you're playing with casual players

UU and NU online are just as centralized as OU

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:31:27 No.16217724 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217697
fucking agreed
kangaskhan loses to a dedenne with charm and nuzzle

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:33:25 No.16217774 Report

Quoted By: >>16217795 >>16217941

>>16217694
they have set the standards for competitive pokemon though, their rules have existed for years and years and no other pokemon website has the same dedication to competitive information that they do

>even though they don't really play competitive Pokemon anymore
what?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:34:45 No.16217795 Report

Quoted By: >>16217848 >>16218001

>>16217774
then why their rules arent used in competitons?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:35:02 No.16217802 Report

Quoted By: >>16218074 >>16219375

>>16216882

>sleep clause

still upset that dollup won Worlds VGC '13 by Prankster Sporing his opponents entire team?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:36:54 No.16217838 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217697
>>16217665

I've never heard of people having a problem with Mega Mawile, but if you can't take out Mega Kangaskhan immediately, it can be problematic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:37:14 No.16217848 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217795
because nintendo doesn't give a shit about esports and have always been obsessed with doing their own unique thing

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:41:27 No.16217931 Report

Quoted By: >>16218992

>>16217697
mawile can learn earthquake you know

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:41:42 No.16217937 Report

Quoted By:

People on /vp/ get mad because they don't understand how tiers are structured(just look in the archives for smogon threads and see the stupid shit people here tout as fact) and think their bros arent usually outclassed by better Pokemon. Which is partly what tiers do, help put Pokemon in a meta where they can do well. Why would I pick Miltank for uniqueness when there are other Pokemon that do its job better?
I mean holy shit you faggots can use all the cheap tactics and piss on smogons rules all you want on random wi-fi match ups but if you dont play on their simulators the bitching just looks so empty and pointless.
I also partly believe the hate is because some people here want to play on smogon simulators but simply dont agree with all of their rules for the other tiers, which is ok. There are people here who want evasion to be lifted for OU but refuse to play Ubers the tier that allows them to do this because of Mewtwo and Kyogre. They simply can not get what they want so they come here to bitch about it.

If you want unique teams and the chance to play the OU tier play the shitty low brackets(sub 1800) in OU, tons of people play testing, coming up with interesting ideas etc. Though don't mind me, I'll be using my lazy sandstorm team on PS! every few days while doing stupid shit like annoying people with Wobbufett on Wi-Fi and Passerby battles.

I also have a question to people who want evasion to be lifted in the lower tiers, why on Earth do you not just play Ubers if evasion is so damn easy to counter? If it really is as simple as running half a team of phazers with never miss moves then the idea of Ubers should make you all harder than a Metagross.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:41:48 No.16217941 Report

Quoted By: >>16218007 >>16218073

>>16217774

Competitive Pokemon is a game that largely revolves around doubles, and to a lesser extent triples or 3v3 singles. Showdown is mostly about 6v6 singles with a variant ruleset that doesn't even exist in-game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:44:12 No.16218001 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217795
some of the rules that smogon stick to are used.

Who decided on them first doesnt matter, but there are common rules that people generally adhere to.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:44:35 No.16218007 Report

Quoted By: >>16218030

>>16217941
I've always found this extraordinarily weird.

Why focus on doubles? Who gives a fuck about doubles? Why focus on it when people really aren't going to be experiencing much of it while playing through the game if you're the official body?

6v6 singles just makes the most sense, it is the most standard Pokemon battle you can think of, why isn't it the main focus?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:45:30 No.16218030 Report

Quoted By: >>16218069 >>16218097

>>16218007
Because Doubles requires more skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:47:08 No.16218069 Report

Quoted By:

>>16218030
And? Why would that matter to Nintendo?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:47:33 No.16218073 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217941
oh god you're on of those faggots

no, "competitive pokemon" refers to any pokemon battling is competitive. I hate to break it to you but doubles and VGC players take up like 1% of the competitive playerbase, no one gives a shit about them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:47:35 No.16218074 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217802

Whimsicott is going to get wrecked by Smogon Bird. As long as they invest in speed EVs. Then again whims is only a little slower than him and he MIGHT get buffed.

Also Grass imunity to Spore.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:48:35 No.16218097 Report

Quoted By:

>>16218030
>being this delusional

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:49:42 No.16218116 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217453
>Calling bulbasaur shit when venusaur was in OU
>It took not one, but 2 mega evolutions to bring charetard out of NU
AHAHAHAHAHA, yeah, keep telling yourself Charizard is good kid.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:54:09 No.16218204 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217320
But all the Kanto starters are shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 17:08:18 No.16218501 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217525
when did i do that

O'Malley 0232-8330-5230

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O'Malley 0232-8330-5230 Sun 24 Nov 2013 17:30:23 No.16218992 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217931
Hue

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 17:41:54 No.16219290 Report

Quoted By:

>>16216831
>bright powder

There have been times in Battle Maison that I've missed twice in a row with 100 accuracy moves and no one in the fight used any evasion or accuracy modifiers. Fucking bullshit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Nov 2013 17:45:47 No.16219375 Report

Quoted By:

>>16217802
Can you paste the video, i'd like to see that

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