/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #16697534

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Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:06:54 No.16697534 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>16697716 >>16698577 >>16698697

What if the points you were awarded after a win on PS were affected by your pokemon's tier placement?
If my NU-UU team can beat a guy using a standard cookie-cutter OU team and said guy has a high ladder score, shouldn't I be rewarded for that?

This would motivate people using lower tier pokemon and would promote more skill and diversity.

Why hasn't anyone on Smogon/PS thought of that yet?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:09:31 No.16697576 Report

Quoted By:

Stop.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1387091412243.gif, 217KiB, 160x94

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:10:06 No.16697590 Report

Quoted By:

I would love that.

Do you think items should have tier-impact-points too or is that a little TOO autistic?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:10:58 No.16697603 Report

Quoted By: >>16700463

That's actually an excellent point OP.
I would love a system like that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:12:45 No.16697641 Report

Quoted By:

I like the idea of it. It'd probably mess up the rating of certain lower tier pokemon by having them go up in usage though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:13:55 No.16697662 Report

Quoted By: >>16698141

That actually makes sense.
If my NU team can beat a generic Smogonbird/Mega Milf/Washing Machine/Tyranitar/Greninja/Excadrill team and the guy has a high score it means that I won against a skilled player despite a handicap and my win should weigh more.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:16:40 No.16697713 Report

Quoted By:

Too bad ELO is very complicated for the smogonfags

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:16:45 No.16697716 Report

Quoted By: >>16697926 >>16700489

>>16697534
The issue is that would completely skew every pokemons ratings, completely defeating the entire purpose of your system

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:19:02 No.16697769 Report

Quoted By: >>16697805 >>16697860

>people stop using things like Smogon-bird, Smogon-wash, etc
>making them lower tiers
>they soon start to be used again because the system awards using lower tiers
>making them higher tiers

It's a loop. Tiers aren't based on how good something is, they're based on how much they're used.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:19:37 No.16697774 Report

Quoted By: >>16697885

This would be good for the metagame in two ways:
on one hand you have the guys using the NU-UU mons who would have a fair chance at climbing the ladder, which would lead people to realize that those "NU-UU trash pokemon" are not trash after all and would start getting some recognition, on the other hand those who rely on cookie-cutter teams would be forced to be less predictable.

This means the metagame would never be static and we would be constantly learn more about obscure pokemon ho would normally see no use.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:21:31 No.16697805 Report

Quoted By: >>16697902

>>16697769
That's the point. Who says that things like Scizor and Tyranitar have to be OU forever?
Instead of a stale metagame made where most teams are cookie-cutter why not allow some diversity?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:22:00 No.16697815 Report

Quoted By: >>16698417

Is showdown not working for anyone else?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:24:32 No.16697860 Report

Quoted By: >>16697902

>>16697769
A system like that wouldn't discourage the use of solid OU pokemon because if you keep winning with your cookie-cutter team you still earn points and your ladder score goes up.
Instead of making NU-UU mons nearly worthless in OU it would give them a fair chance instead.
After all, OP's idea says that you'd be rewarded for beating an OU team with NU-UU stuff only against people with a high ladder score.
Surely you're not going to easily lose against NU-UU teams if your ladder score is high, right?
So I don't see where the issue is.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:25:37 No.16697885 Report

Quoted By: >>16698034

>>16697774
But what if static is good? Having to rework things every month to deal with the new top threats and different sets in every tier could be needlessly complicated.
I'm completely for this idea if it could work, but I'm trying to think of what a generic smogonfag would say as an argument against it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:26:29 No.16697902 Report

Quoted By:

>>16697805
>>16697860

Good, so there can be even more complaints about what's banned/what tier a certain Pokemon is

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:27:32 No.16697926 Report

Quoted By: >>16697968

>>16697716
Usage stats would still be the same, but the player who is more skilled would be rewarded for that.
I think we can agree that, on average, if player A using NU mons can beat player B using top OU mons, and both have the same ladder score, then player A is the better one, right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:30:05 No.16697968 Report

Quoted By: >>16698145

>>16697926
Usage stats WOULDNT be the same, because people want to get more points. If people get more points for using lower tier Pokemon, they're going to use lower tier Pokemon. Things like Blaziken will be the ones barely seeing use, making it a lower tier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:32:18 No.16698011 Report

Quoted By:

I think the one problem I see with this is then there are going to be certain UU and RU pokemon that would get used a lot because they would net you more points, and then they would stop being RU and UU, and then once they are OU, they go back down again. The cookie cutter teams would the involve at least a few of the top UU pokemon. It wouldn't make it less stale, it would just make what is cookie-cutter different.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:32:36 No.16698017 Report

Quoted By: >>16698077 >>16699443

Wait.

You mean that ISN'T how it works already?

Fucking hell there's basically no point to tiers besides Pokemon restrictions. Tiers could at least do something else like give cred.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:33:25 No.16698034 Report

Quoted By:

>>16697885
I don't think it would work this way.
The usage stats would stay overall the same.
If something is consistently good in OU, like Rotom-W or Ferrothorn, it will never drop.

But let's say I want to use stuff like Grumpig or Lumineon, who would normally have no business in OU, and I can actually make a good team and win with those against skilled players, shouldn't I be rewarded for that?

This way players who want to use their favorites or something from the lower tiers for a change, and prove they're still good, would be rewarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:35:58 No.16698077 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698017
Currently you get more points if you beat a guy with a higher ladder score than yours, regardless of what you use.
It's pathetically easy to climb the ladder because all you hve to do is looking at the usage stats, make a cookie-cutter team with 6 top OU pokemon and the rest is pretty much auto-pilot if you have a decent knowledge of how battling works.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:38:49 No.16698141 Report

Quoted By: >>16698263

>>16697662
Please share that battle if that day ever comes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:38:53 No.16698145 Report

Quoted By:

>>16697968
You forget the important part: use lower tier pokemon and WIN against players who have HIGH SCORE.

If that happens then it means we have discovered some hidden gem that has a place in OU.
If that doesn't happen, no big deal, OU will keep going on.
Win/win.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:39:21 No.16698152 Report

Quoted By: >>16698185 >>16698224

That's a terrible idea because it will just cuase people to use lower-tier pokemon that synergies with top OU threats. It wont fix anything and doesn't reward skill or teambuilding, just abusing a clearly flawed system to get gain more rating on wins and lose less on losses.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:40:44 No.16698185 Report

Quoted By: >>16698246 >>16698274

>>16698152
>That's a terrible idea because it will just cuase people to use lower-tier pokemon that synergies with top OU threats.

...why is that bad again?

>It wont fix anything and doesn't reward skill or teambuilding, just abusing a clearly flawed system to get gain more rating on wins and lose less on losses.

Lel, the sheer irony of this statement.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:42:39 No.16698224 Report

Quoted By: >>16698315

>>16698152
You just summed up how current OU works, except for the fact people don't even try to use lower tier pokemon who synergize with OU threats because they use 6 OU mons instead.
Overall you basically confirmed that OP's idea would be an improvement to the current system.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:43:19 No.16698246 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698185
you didn't even respond with an argument are you this stupid.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:44:15 No.16698263 Report

Quoted By: >>16698657

>>16698141
That day will never come as long as the current system discourages me from even bothering with such a team.
Why shouldn't I use a cookie-cutter OU team and make 1/10 of the effort?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:45:04 No.16698274 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698185
Using lower-tier pokemon isn't bad. It's rewarding in the current metagame because prediction and countering isn't as sure-fire as regularly seen threats.

You shouldn't be rewarded just because you use fucking Slowking instead of Slowbro.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:47:19 No.16698315 Report

Quoted By: >>16698341

>>16698224
It wouldn't be better. Instead of seeing talonflame or Washing machien, you'd see Heracross and Chandelure, because that would net you more points. I think people have to just deal with the fact that it is impossible to make a meta that isn't dominated by "cookie-cutter" teams, because there will always be certain pokemon that will work best for the current meta. The only way to fix this would be to make every pokemon of equal strength, which I know gamefreak would never do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:48:52 No.16698341 Report

Quoted By: >>16698423

>>16698315
Then guess what? Heracross and Chandelure would be OU, making this whole thing meaningless.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:51:04 No.16698379 Report

Quoted By: >>16698423 >>16698469

>getting rewarded because your enemy is too shitty to recognize how to beat lower-tier mons
might as well reward people for using only monotype teams and making Red's team, and if they win, they should be bumped up to 1850 because they're CLEARLY very good at this game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:51:53 No.16698397 Report

Quoted By: >>16698493

It seems that people who are against OP's idea are more concerned about tier placements for the sake of it.

For starters, if a pokemon is truly deserving of its OU placement it won't drop, period.

Secondly, even if said pokemon does drop, who the hell cares? If for some weird reason Aegislash ends up in UU, why shouldn't I keep using it, given that it has proven time and again to be perfectly viable in OU?

Finally, OP clearly states that only exceptionally good players, given the circumstances, would benefit from this system. You want to be the very best trainer using Pikachu and that stuff in OU? Cool, now you get the chance to prove it, against good players. You can't? Sucks for you. Nothing of value was lost.

The only side effect of a system like this would be that formerly obscure pokemon would start getting more use because THEY ACTUALLY WORK IN OU. This is actually a GOOD thing for the metagame.
I really see nothing bad on paper with this system. It should definitely be tested, at the very least.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:52:32 No.16698417 Report

Quoted By:

>>16697815

Seriously nothing works

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:52:44 No.16698423 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698341
Exactly, and then the next top tier UU pokemon would be used a lot, and then Heracross and Chandelure would go down, making an endless cycle.
>>16698379
Also this. It's pretty much impossible to beat a highly skilled player with NU mons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:55:15 No.16698469 Report

Quoted By: >>16698516 >>16698522

>>16698379

Did you even fucking read? You'd get rewarded for beating players with a HIGH SCORE.
If you lose to NU trash that easily, perhaps you didn't really deserve your 1850+ score on the ladder.
If you're really as good as you think you are then you have nothing to fear.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:56:27 No.16698493 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698397
The system doesn't reward skill, though, it rewards using pokemon for the sake of getting more rating when you win.

There is NOTHING stopping ANYBODY from using lower-tiered pokemon in OU. And you shouldn't have to be punished just because all of your team happens to be within OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:56:58 No.16698502 Report

Quoted By: >>16698557

I don't see the point of this. It sounds like something that'd be a lot of effort to program in for little to no benefit.

Players who wanna seriously ladder are not going to bother tacking on some lower tier mon to get more points, because it could make their team worse in the long run. Not all lower tier mons make your team worse, but generally speaking there's a better OU replacement. It would be better to have an all OU team that consistently win than to miss out on some wins because you used an inferior mon.

It's not going to cause people to suddenly realize the hidden potential of lower tier mons. Every single Pokemon gets analyzed and pages are frequently written on how to use it in tiers above the one it's already in. There's generally a pretty decent WHY that 'mon is not top tier; generally it's because it's outclassed or too niche.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:57:26 No.16698516 Report

Quoted By: >>16698540

>>16698469

This thread is basically a huge bait for those scrubs who get a high ladder score only because they auto-pilot their matches with Smogonbird, Mega Milf and such.
I would gladly welcome a system that punishes them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:58:02 No.16698522 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698469
You currently are rewarded for beating experienced players with a high score. You want to be rewarded even more?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:58:35 No.16698540 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698516
The people who use cookie-cutter teams generally don't make it past 1800. Most of the truly elite players have a few hitches in their team.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 00:59:34 No.16698557 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698502
>something that'd be a lot of effort to program

Not really. It would be a simple change in the score formula.
Hell we have weighted stats on PS, and those are definitely harder to calculate.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:00:44 No.16698577 Report

Quoted By: >>16698599 >>16698671 >>16706559

>>16697534
It's like nobody even knows what the Smogon tiers are.

They ARE NOT powerlevels (With the exception of Ubers, BL and BL2), they literally classify pokemon by how much they're used. (Over Used, Under Used, Rarely Used, Never Used)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:01:52 No.16698599 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698577
>They ARE NOT powerlevels
This board is convinced otherwise.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:03:14 No.16698640 Report

Quoted By:

I use UU and RU pokemon all the time in my teams, and sit around ~1800. I feel like this would make my progress less meaningful if people got an artificial bump in rating for using the same pokemon I have forever.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:03:30 No.16698657 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698263
>I don't put effort into making a team because I'm not getting a reward for it.

Way to go, Anon. May as well keep using the same OU team since you're obviously too retarded to think another one if you need to be encouraged to use a different one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:04:08 No.16698671 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698577
Of course, the majority of OU pokemon ARE better than lower tiers, but there are PLENTY of lower tier mons that can hold their own in OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:05:08 No.16698697 Report

Quoted By:

>>16697534
>Why hasn't anyone on Smogon/PS thought of that yet?

Gee I dunno, why don't you ask them that?

It's because you know that most of /vp/ will agree with you, being a very anti-smogon echo chamber.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:06:20 No.16698724 Report

Quoted By: >>16698761 >>16698768 >>16698793

Honestly I see nothing bad about this.
People who want to use their favorites and suck won't go anywhere, those who are actully good will be rewarded as they should.
OU pokemon will stay OU because they're good and OU-worthy pokemon will move up because they're actually good in OU but didn't get the recognition they deserved.
If they're truly OU worthy they'll stay there, else they'll move down.
So? What's the big deal about this? Are you allergic to change or what?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:08:21 No.16698761 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698724
That can happen now. It's a pointless change.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:08:47 No.16698768 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698724
>Are you allergic to change or what?

That, and being scared to lose 100+ points each time their cookie-cutter team with zero originality loses against skilled players who have the balls to use pokemon from the lower tiers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:10:39 No.16698793 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698724
I personally used to play OU with an entire NU team for most part, won some, lost some. The point is, nothing is stopping you from doing it right now, why do you need a reward because you feel like an special snowflake using "muh underpowered team"? That's just ridiculous.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:14:09 No.16698861 Report

Quoted By:

they can go ahead and put that in, because it really won't change much

most people laddering are not going to nerf their team to get extra points here and there. it's better to just use the absolute best team you can make to keep on winning instead of losing battles because you've made your team worse

this idea was probably made by someone who doesn't know how smogon works, and the same could be said about the people who support this. every single pokemon has pages of sets written for it, and quite a few them get articles written on how to use them above their tier. sooner or later people will find out all what every pokemon can do, regardless of whether or not you give them special snowflake points.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:16:23 No.16698914 Report

Quoted By: >>16699873

It would break the idea of tiers. If everyone uses NU and RU Pokemon to get better scores, they wouldn't be NU or RU anymore. OU would be full of Pokemon that really aren't good enough for that tier, while the "real" OU Pokemon would get crowded into BL and UU. Tiers wouldn't mean anything anymore.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:19:56 No.16698987 Report

Quoted By:

Why don't you just feel proud to yourself that you beat nerds at pokemon with your favorite pokemon?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:22:22 No.16699032 Report

Quoted By:

Check out the latest vid on pokeaim md's YouTube channel, about pokebattle.com

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 01:43:40 No.16699443 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698017
The tiers are restricting, but not in the way you're thinking they are.

No one's stopping you from using a NU pokemon in OU. What it's stopping you from doing is bringing an ultra powerful monster like Scizor into a tier that can't possibly compete with it.

It's like backwards restriction.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 02:03:04 No.16699873 Report

Quoted By: >>16706495

>>16698914
Tiers are already essentially just a popularity poll that has been peer reviewed and communally scrutinized don't hate the player hate the game

Fagle: 3282 - 3232 - 1763 (normal, Teddiursa, Minnccino, Eevee.)

Fagle: 3282 - 3232 - 1763 (normal, Teddiursa, Minnccino, Eevee.) Mon 16 Dec 2013 02:32:29 No.16700463 Report

Quoted By:

>>16697603
i agree.

Fagle: 3282 - 3232 - 1763 (normal, Teddiursa, Minnccino, Eevee.)

Fagle: 3282 - 3232 - 1763 (normal, Teddiursa, Minnccino, Eevee.) Mon 16 Dec 2013 02:34:00 No.16700489 Report

Quoted By: >>16700567

>>16697716
um, no it wouldn't.
ou is still ou.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 02:38:26 No.16700567 Report

Quoted By: >>16706477

>>16700489
OU would change as the usage of other pokemon went up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 08:51:34 No.16706477 Report

Quoted By:

>>16700567
Did you forget that tiers are now based on weighted stats?
Let's say scrubs start spamming Pikachu: if they suck (and they most likely will), Pikachu's usage won't go up and it will stay NU.
Only underrated pokemon would go up with this system, which is why I think it's a splendid idea.
After all, how many times have you asked yourself "why isn't this thing used more?".

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 08:54:48 No.16706495 Report

Quoted By:

>>16699873
The problem with how tiers work now is that they discourage diversity. Most players look at the OU list, pick 6 pokemon and call it a day.
Surely you won't tell me that all these people suddenly using Mega Kanga are doing so because they secretely loved her for over 15 years right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 09:02:14 No.16706559 Report

Quoted By:

>>16698577
Under the current system usage and power level are strictly correlated and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.
Why don't you calculate the average BST per tier? You'll quickly realize that the higher the tier, the higher the BST.
Wy don't you compare movepools? Ubers tend to have insanely powerful attacks and/or signature moves at their disposal as well as type coverage.
Why don't you compare abilities? How many OU pokemon are stuck with shitty abilities like Pickup and Run away?

The whole idea behind usage-based tier is that people will naturelly use stronger pokemon more often.
And on top of that banlists like ubers are power levels by definition.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 16 Dec 2013 09:18:10 No.16706712 Report

Quoted By:

Simple solution so both the cookie-cutter teams and the hipster teams can be happy: instead of a single ladder score, use two - one for the actual stats and one that uses OP's system.

This way tiers don't get fucked up, skilled players who think outside the box get some recognition and underrated pokemon from the lower tiers get some attention without directly interfering with the standard system.

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