/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #18281969

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Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:15:17 No.18281969 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>18282298 >>18282327 >>18282358 >>18282738

Why do I see so much hate for Smogon on here? I genuinely don't get it.

I see the term "cookie cutter team" thrown around a lot - what exactly is meant by that? Obviously I get the metaphor (lol) but it doesn't make sense... I mean, if a Pokemon is good, why would you not want/look down on those with it on a team?
Is it just "being different for the sake of being different"?

I'm not trying to be a dick at all; I'm just asking honestly as to why many people's opinion is that Smogon is oppressive/incorrect/dum/etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:23:50 No.18282088 Report

Quoted By:

g-guys please...

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:23:55 No.18282090 Report

Quoted By:

Because casualfags are dumb and don't understand what Smogon does and doesn't do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:25:38 No.18282115 Report

Quoted By: >>18282138 >>18282157 >>18282178 >>18282190 >>18282250 >>18282738

Its mainly because all they do is copy and paste the teams, with no real strategy and it just gets boring beating the same team a hundred times.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:27:49 No.18282138 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282115
I mean
If they actually do that now (it's been a while), then yeah, it's stupid
but there's only so many good moves a lot of Pokemon can have. It's not like you'd run ember on your Char X "because different"

but if an entire team composition is literally copy/pasted then that's pretty stupid

Kaeru 2793-0657-9607 [Beautifly, Paras, Venomoth]

Kaeru 2793-0657-9607 [Beautifly, Paras, Venomoth] Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:29:02 No.18282157 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282115
This.
It is boring when everyone you battle uses the same team (or slight variation).

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:30:15 No.18282178 Report

Quoted By: >>18282204

>>18282115
>with no real strategy

lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:30:49 No.18282190 Report

Quoted By: >>18282204

>>18282115
>all they do is copy and paste the teams, with no real strategy

pls be joking

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:31:56 No.18282204 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282178
>>18282190

similarfag

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:35:38 No.18282250 Report

Quoted By: >>18282307 >>18282371 >>18283381

>>18282115
This would've happened without Smogon. Why do you think rated battle spot is all Kangaskhan? Because it's one of the best Pokemon in the game.

I can understand the "no strategy" part since Deosharp teams are cancer that lets shit players up to the high ladder, but this is what smogon's trying to prevent is it not? The same shit happened when Mega Kang was allowed after all.

You are now aware that a diverse metagame is outright encouraged in the suspect testing process.
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:38:22 No.18282298 Report

Quoted By: >>18282340 >>18282360

>>18281969
OP, you are making the mistake of assuming I need a reason to hate Smogonfags.

That being said, they look down on me for using a team that deviates from the norm, and so if I had the chance to wipe them from the timeline I would take it in a heartbeat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:39:05 No.18282307 Report

Quoted By: >>18282398

>>18282250
To build off of this, I see a lot of people say that if you don't use the "Smogon team" you lose instantly... that's literally the opposite of what they want. They put in a lot of work to try to make an environment where as many Pokemon within reason are good as possible.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:40:20 No.18282327 Report

Quoted By:

>>18281969

it's because most people on /vp/ are trash at this game so they get butthurt when People who are actually decen't at the game tell them that their favorite Pokemon sucks in the OU environment

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:41:26 No.18282340 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282298
You hate them "without needing a reason" yet you complain they look down the teams you make? How does that even work?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:42:58 No.18282358 Report

Quoted By:

>>18281969
You must not play Smogon tiers often, then.

After your first ten or so battles you will realize that a solid 70-80% of battlers online build their teams from the same pool of 12-15 OU mons with the same damn recommended set right there on Smogons website. It gets REALLY FUCKING OLD when you battle online consistently and you keep having to face the same teams over and over.

It's not a hatred of Smogon, but a hatred of the people who mindlessly follow their strategies. Just makes for a boring meta.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:43:09 No.18282360 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282298
Just like you have the right to put whichever Pokemon you want on your team, I have the right to be able to say that, in my opinion, they aren't the best choice and/or they aren't ones I would use in a competitive game of Pokemon
tfw my favorite Pokemon is Dunsparce

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:43:41 No.18282371 Report

Quoted By: >>18282424 >>18282736 >>18283626 >>18283967

>>18282250
>You are now aware that a diverse metagame is outright encouraged in the suspect testing process.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagplay-evaluating-potential-bans-basic-definition-of-uncompetitive-in-op.3500620/
>Previous data shows that "diversity" is not conclusively deemed better by not the community, nor is "over-centralization" deemed a problem.

I usually don't have a problem with the council but fuck them right now. Seriously talking about banning swagplay instead of Deoxys-D. No surprise because Haunter is a HO fanatic along with most of the council.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:45:03 No.18282386 Report

Quoted By:

There's two groups in each faction. one half of smogon makes cookie cutter teams, the other half know how to play the game and discuss unorthodox but viable builds, then on the people who dislike it, there are the ones who hate it cause they suck at the game and get beaten by the cookie cutter teams and dont know how to counter it, and the other half dislike it because they feel it breeds this sort of elitism, where anything that isnt OU or BL gets tossed out without consideration.

then theres the other four groups that are the various mixes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:45:58 No.18282398 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282307
Plus people are usually prepared for OU: The Team, but they might not know what M-Gardevoir or Crocune does. Quite a few high-ladder teams have surprises like that, as well as OU-mons with unexpected moves (HP Fighting Latios to lure Bisharp is one example off the top of my head)

Also the top 100 on the ladder has 5 or 6 alts of the same guy using a Baton Pass team. He got up so high because OU: The Team is completely unprepared for a well-played chain

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:47:45 No.18282424 Report

Quoted By: >>18282453

>>18282371
>m-muh conspiracies!!!
Chou isn't in the council. :^)

Seriously though, they would've never banned M-Luke by that logic. Haunter didn't call for this either, he was kowtowing to the ladder plebs which is still pretty fucking stupid imo

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:49:56 No.18282453 Report

Quoted By: >>18282599 >>18283626 >>18283792 >>18283825

>>18282424
>Chou isn't in the council. :^)
And yet he was allowed to stick that in Haunter's post. Also Haunter has said himself that he's a HO player. Swagplay does fuck all against a stall or even moderately defensive team, it's only good against HO.

>they would've never banned M-Luke by that logic
If they seriously banned things for being centralizing they would have banned Drizzle last gen. Mega Luke wasn't banned for being centralizing, it was banned for being a broken piece of shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 01:58:54 No.18282599 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282453
If you look in the actual survey, diversity was indeed seen as a desirable trait, but not necessary. Keep in mind, this was during the BW2 metagame, which was shitty despite being diverse. This basically boils down to "diverse != healthy" necessarily, though it can contribute to a good metagame.

>Swagplay does fuck all against a stall or even moderately defensive team, it's only good against HO.
The shitty kind of Swagplay team which by the way can go up to 1700 if you were bored enough, the better ones have countermeasures against stall, maybe hazard-stacking with Deosharp.

>If they seriously banned things for being centralizing they would have banned Drizzle last gen.
I mean they probably would have, had BW continued longer. After all, a ton of high-level players really wanted Drizzle banned altogether and there were some really nasty feelings about it. Ginganinja basically said something of the same effect in the Genesect discussion. Bear in mind, Genesect was also an important tool for HO, like Scarfchomp but even better. It got the boot too.

Foamp SV {3561}

Foamp SV {3561} Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:00:04 No.18282608 Report

Quoted By:

It's because weeaboo faggots think that the term "I can't beat it, so I banned it" is true.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:07:17 No.18282736 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282371
Being broken or centralising is not the same thing as being uncompetitive (though things can be both). Smogon generally gives some leeway for suspecting potentially broken stuff, but they're a lot less lenient to uncompetitive strats like Moody.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:07:30 No.18282738 Report

Quoted By: >>18282801

>>18281969
>Is it just "being different for the sake of being different"?

Yes.

What idiots like >>18282115 don't seem to understand is that the reason you see the same Pokemon and sets a lot on the ladder is not because Smogon players are unimaginative or that they "lack strategy", it's because the aim of COMPETITIVE Pokemon (or competitive /anything/) is to WIN, and so using the cream of the crop makes far more sense than using unique/original stuff, because unique/original stuff is probably not as good as the cream or else other people would already be using it.

And in those rare cases where that's not the case, anything unique or original that actually WORKS will quickly become standard. Look at Mandibuzz -- I bet the guy who first started using it felt pretty fucking smart and original. But because his idea was actually good, now Mandibuzz is common.

When you've got thousands of active players constantly battling each other, the "standard" will be set pretty quickly and any new and worthwhile ideas will be disseminated rapidly until they become standard too. That's just what competitive Pokemon is... this whole idea that everyone should disregard using the best Pokemon and sets available in order be a special snoflake is only floated by people who shouldn't be playing competitive in the first place.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:11:38 No.18282801 Report

Quoted By: >>18282932 >>18283053 >>18284396 >>18284422

>>18282738

But the point isnt to be a special snowflake you fuckwit, its about challenging yourself to prove you are better. anyone can use a cookie cutter team and win, thats why they're called cookie cutter teams. The real challenge, and by extension, fun, is using a team that isnt really standard, and you soon learn which are viable and which arent, which need tweaking and what not. If you only play for easy win then you must suck, or at least suck at other games if you think winning with a team like that indicates any form of skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:19:07 No.18282932 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282801
Every competitive game has overused stuff, that is the nature of having an unbalanced game like Pokemon and even some balanced ones like fighting games. Pokemon is about the only competitive game with metagames for lower tiers, which is a huge step above your average "FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION" competitive game. You are not Ash the fucking Pokemon master, you're just another ladder pleb until you climb up. If you do it with something that's not generic Deosharp, more power to you, but more people will just choose the easiest thing.

And honestly, you seriously think the first person to use Clefable in a serious OU team thought he could keep his untapped potential to himself? Hell no. As soon as people catch onto stuff that WORKS, it becomes standard, even if it was neglected earlier. Deosharp didn't become huge until Deoxys-D was discovered to be better at hazard-stacking than Deo-S, to the point that it's probably outright broken. Now it's so bog-standard it's mind-numbing. Word of mouth works faster than you'd imagine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:25:17 No.18283053 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282801
i dont even play competitive pokeymans but you sound like a loser whose been beaten too many times by "cookie cutter" teams

get good and stop crying about people who dont play the game the way you want them too

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:32:35 No.18283215 Report

Quoted By: >>18283275

You are now aware that 6v6 singles is a format that Gamefreak no longer develops for and doesn't bother to balance.

You are also aware that the only prize tournaments and the only tournaments run by Nintendo are in VGC Doubles format, and that "competitive" 6v6 singles involves a rulespack which can only be changed by people who win under the current rulespack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:35:31 No.18283275 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283215
Oh we know. But does it actually matters? Some people just might enjoy playing 6 on 6 singles.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:36:52 No.18283297 Report

Quoted By:

>why do i see so much hate on 4chan

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:40:12 No.18283381 Report

Quoted By: >>18283412

>>18282250
This. I would but my left nut that it would still be copypasta teams, except it would probably be a team of the most powerful legendaries that aren't banned on every team in place of OU: The Team: The Movie

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:41:23 No.18283412 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283381
*bet

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:50:50 No.18283626 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282453
>>18282371
And the Council won't ban Kang because they use it to get easy wins. And they banned Gengar and Blaziken because they check Kang. Right.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:57:37 No.18283738 Report

Quoted By: >>18283759 >>18283809 >>18283863

Pardon my ignorance, but what's DeoSharp? Doexys and Bisharp?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 02:58:46 No.18283759 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283738
yes, deoxys-d for guaranteed hazards, bisharp for fucking over defoggers

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:01:03 No.18283792 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282453
But anon, if it was a broken piece of shit, they'd have no reason not to keep it in OU for easy wins and ladder rankings. :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:01:48 No.18283809 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283738

It's SkarmBliss: Electric Boogaloo.

Lucas 1263-7189-6826 (Kecleon, Lillipup,Ditto)

Lucas 1263-7189-6826 (Kecleon, Lillipup,Ditto) Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:03:04 No.18283825 Report

Quoted By: >>18283850 >>18283900 >>18284148 >>18284488 >>18284539

>>18282453
M-Luke was literally banned for "being too unpredictable." i.e, "we can't predict it with our cookie cutter aegislashes and talonflames[/spoiler:lit]

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:04:35 No.18283850 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283825
More like "it's too unpredictable and also it fucking 2HKO's Chansey with a special attack"

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:05:03 No.18283863 Report

Quoted By: >>18283873

>>18283738
Same shit as Skarmbliss.

Fucked over by MixApe

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:05:37 No.18283873 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283863
Mixape can't stop Deo-D from hazard-stacking. :^)

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:07:14 No.18283900 Report

Quoted By: >>18284194

>>18283825
>ditto safari
>being wasted on this faggot

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:11:05 No.18283967 Report

Quoted By: >>18284237

>>18282371
Swagplay is just a gimmick, just like aron study with endeavor and bullet punch

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:11:05 No.18283968 Report

Quoted By: >>18284160 >>18284273 >>18284304

Because smogon severely limits peoples mindsets into thinking there's only a handful of ways to have a successful team. This leads to people just copy pasting builds and using the same team made from a pool of lets say ~30 pokemon. While that pool of 30 pokemon may be strong in some sense, there is no real cohesion within the team. Smogon builds usually make a pokemon individually strong, and try to cover as many types as possible instead of building a team that has synergy and a real strategy in mind. I'm not saying you're wrong for running your smogon pokemon, I'm just saying it's boring to play against.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:20:54 No.18284148 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283825

By "unpredictable" you mean "only 1 Pokemon could counter all of its sets".

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:21:35 No.18284160 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283968
the analyses put team options in the fucking analyses you dick nibbler

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:23:34 No.18284194 Report

Quoted By: >>18284217

>>18283900
Good thing Ditto safaris are worthless now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:24:52 No.18284217 Report

Quoted By:

>>18284194
Pokegen is truly God's gift.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:26:05 No.18284237 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283967
which people have made suspect reqs with

i am not joking btw. you ever face dogingmaker and swaggerificc on PS? they're the same guy, and he's doing it to prove a point

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:26:23 No.18284240 Report

Quoted By: >>18284255

hy exactly do you people complain about Smogon?

>Everyone uses the same shit
That's how competitive battling is, people are going to use Pokemon that gives them the best chance to win, and if that means using the Smogon Sixx like everyone else, I don't think they really care.

>They force you to use certain mons
No they don't. It's your decision. They just explain what Pokemon give you the best chance to win, and why. If you want to use Raichu over Mega-Manectric, then go right ahead. Nobody will stop you

>Muh low tier bro
Then go play lower tiers. OU isn't the only tier there is. It's actually the reason why we have tiers. To let Pokemon that can't really hang in OU find a place for itself so it can be successful. Do that with your bros. I love Leafeon, and she wrecked fucking shit in Gen 5 UU with Sunny Day Support.

>They Ban everything
Everything that's too OP for the regular metagame gets sent to Ubers.
>Blaziken
>Mega-Kanga
>Mega-Gengar
I'd really love to see arguments for why those 3 shouldn't have been banned.

>Muh Evasion
You do know everything that deals with Double Team and Minimize spam is either:
A. Poorly distributed
B. Only terrible Pokemon get them
C. They don't work in the bigger picture (Aerial Ace/Swift/Aura Sphere)
Aura sphere is the only reliable of those moves, and well, what the hell gets Aura Sphere other than Lucario, Blastoise, and Clawitzer?

Come now guys, be mature about this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:27:51 No.18284255 Report

Quoted By:

>>18284240
>Aura sphere is the only reliable of those moves, and well, what the hell gets Aura Sphere other than Lucario, Blastoise, and Clawitzer?

Togekiss and Mienshao lol get #wrekt fag

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:29:14 No.18284273 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283968

Smogon's analysis feature multiple sets, with multiple options per set, with multiple references to choosing "what your team needs", and then at the bottom they have a section completely devoted to building a synergized team that includes the Pokemon in question.

You, like most anti-Smogon dipshits, are woefully ill-informed and ignorant. It takes a special kind of stupid to actively bandwagon against something you don't actually have the first clue about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:30:34 No.18284294 Report

Quoted By: >>18284308

Because /vp/ is so shit at competitive to even know how smogon works.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:31:15 No.18284304 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283968
>Because smogon severely limits peoples mindsets into thinking there's only a handful of ways to have a successful team.

Whats your rating on Showdown? I mean since you're such a savant who is not "limited" by Smogon's restrictive mindset, surely you must have come up with some absolutely amazing strategies of your own! Please share.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:31:27 No.18284308 Report

Quoted By:

>>18284294
must be why most of the replay threads here feature trench-rank shitters that think they're at 2000

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:37:32 No.18284396 Report

Quoted By: >>18284434

>>18282801
>anyone can use a cookie cutter team and win

Right, which is why EVERYONE on Showdown has an 1800+ rating, right? Because using cookie-cutter teams are such an instant-win that it eliminates player skill. Right. Right?

You're dumb.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:39:14 No.18284422 Report

Quoted By:

>>18282801
But Playing for the purpose of winning is what Competitive is all about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:40:17 No.18284434 Report

Quoted By:

>>18284396
Deosharp kinda is. But then again Deo-D is a fucking broken piece of shit so all smogon needs to do is ban Deo-D and probably S too, then maybe people will put together HO teams with some semblance of skill and forethought.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Mega Lucario is Bullshit.png, 79KiB, 1318x402

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:44:03 No.18284488 Report

Quoted By: >>18284513

>>18283825
Please enlighten us as to why M-Luke didn't need to be banned

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:45:35 No.18284513 Report

Quoted By:

>>18284488
This, except the number of sets is more like six. Counting SD sets with different kinds of priority (Bullet Punch or Extremespeed), and if it carries the second one and you're trying to revenge it with Smogonbird or Pinsir, you're fucked.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 03:48:09 No.18284539 Report

Quoted By:

>>18283825
M-Luke was banned because almost nohing could resist it after an SD/Nasty Plot.Unpredictability was just icing on the cake.

Keep trying faggot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Feb 2014 04:11:57 No.18284931 Report

Quoted By:

I guess it's just a difference in priorities in some people; for me, I have more fun losing to an uncommon/gimmick team than I do beating the same OU teams over and over. I just like battling and trying out new things rather than trying to win no matter what, so seeing these "cookie cutter" teams gets tiresome and isn't enjoyable.

But some people DO enjoy winning at all costs, which I can actually understand when it's in a competitive environment (like smogon/showdown), but DAMN does that sound like it gets boring fast. I'd rather lose every time than have to make myself use Rotom-W, Talonflame, Aegislash, Greninja, etc., just to win.

Again, it's just differing priorities and opinions.

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