/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #21011742

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Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 02:52:49 No.21011742 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>21011757 >>21012125 >>21015209

Was special really that broken in Gen 5 that they had to nerf it so badly? Most of the discussions about potential threats nowadays are mostly physical shit.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 02:54:44 No.21011757 Report

Quoted By: >>21011867 >>21012089

>>21011742
>Implying it hasn't been a Physically dominated meta since the Physical/Special Split.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:00:59 No.21011867 Report

Quoted By: >>21011916 >>21012008 >>21015209

>>21011757

I'm not a massively experienced battler, but by and large this seems to be true. In significant part because there's just nothing equivalent to Blissey/Eviolite Chansey on the physically defensive side. There's no physical wall Pokémon that's so bulky it can shrug off multiple super effective physical attacks the way Blissey can shrug off Focus Blasts.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:02:52 No.21011890 Report

Quoted By:

Interesting thing to observe. Before the physical special split all special attacking types (with the exception of dragon) resisted themselves while on the physical side only poison and steel resisted themselves.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:04:58 No.21011916 Report

Quoted By: >>21012070 >>21013098

>>21011867
Hi.
But mostly because
>physical electric moves
>physical grass moves

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:07:48 No.21011950 Report

Quoted By:

The only good Special in Gen 5 were the one that benefitted from Weather.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:11:56 No.21012008 Report

Quoted By: >>21012037 >>21014916 >>21016316

>>21011867
>There's no physical wall Pokémon that's so bulky it can shrug off multiple super effective physical attacks the way Blissey can shrug off Focus Blasts.

Ehem.
>inb4norecovery
It will get a recovery move soon. Then you'll see it be labeled as the Chansey that can eat physical attacks for breakfast.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:14:00 No.21012037 Report

Quoted By: >>21012062 >>21012181 >>21012208 >>21012222

>>21012008
It's not on the same level. M-aggron can still be broekn through physically.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:15:49 No.21012062 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012037
Explain

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:16:31 No.21012070 Report

Quoted By:

>>21011916

It's pretty bulky, but still not Blissey-caliber. Granted, it can help its tanking ability by Scalding opponents, so I guess that's something.

Also, there are plenty of physical Grass moves and viable users of them, even if Electric is still a rather shitty physical attacking type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:18:12 No.21012089 Report

Quoted By:

>>21011757
>Never playing gen 5

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:20:50 No.21012125 Report

Quoted By:

>>21011742
The only reason I see the nerf:
You shouldn't be able to nuke everything unless you have STAB on it
For example, Dragons can't auto nuke Steels just cause they have a fire coverage move. It'll still hurt though

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:21:35 No.21012136 Report

Quoted By: >>21012195 >>21012326

Why there isn't an physical AV?

I'm genuinely curious

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:26:15 No.21012181 Report

Quoted By: >>21012221

>>21012037
Explain. UnSTABed EQs/CCs just tickle M-Aggron.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:28:20 No.21012195 Report

Quoted By: >>21012326

>>21012136
Because burn and intimidate exist

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:29:37 No.21012208 Report

Quoted By: >>21012957

>>21012037
>M-aggron can still be broekn through physically.
>252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 172-205 (50 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 201-240 (58.4 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Granted, those are mostly 2HKOs - but to stand up to item/ability/STAB-boosted Super Effectives that much is no small feat. Also, as usual:
>MASTER I SHIT ALL OVER THAT GARCHOMP

As far as non-STABs go, just forget about it. Nothing without a boosted, SE STAB can bust through that, assuming it got something like Recover or Slack Off. It could stall as long as it wanted. Even something like Drain Punch would be a massive boon, given for instance a Curse set.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:30:40 No.21012221 Report

Quoted By: >>21012957 >>21013012

>>21012181
Not him, but most of Blissey's strength come from its massive HP. No physical walls have the combination of HP and Defense like Blissey does with Special Defense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:30:44 No.21012222 Report

Quoted By: >>21012873 >>21012947

>>21012037
M-Aggron's Def stat is a full 95 points higher than Blissey's SpDef. His health is less, but, goddamn, without investment, he'll tank physical hits like nobodies business.

With investment, AND recovery? Good luck getting past him, without praying to RNGesus for crits.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:42:19 No.21012326 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012136
>>21012195
Physical Assault Vest would be nice on Granbull. With Intimidate, it would take a shit on about almost every physical Dragon,Dark, and Fighting type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 03:45:54 No.21012369 Report

Quoted By: >>21012830 >>21012852 >>21012995

The issue wasn't that special was broken
The issue was that physical was shit when compared to special

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:31:35 No.21012830 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012369
This

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:34:23 No.21012852 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012369
Not true.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:36:53 No.21012873 Report

Quoted By: >>21012910 >>21012991 >>21012993 >>21012997

>>21012222
Does the presence of crits, which ignore boosts, and lack of good distribution of recovery moves automatically deem defensive pokemon less viable than offensive pokmeon, which is one of the reasons the meta is so HO?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:42:11 No.21012910 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012873
Crits are meaningless in Gen6 besides a slight bit of more damage than expected. Except on Calm Mind users and Cosmicfable.

Defensive pokemon are less viable and the meta is so HO because Klefki and Baton Pass got nerfed to high hell and when things have 170 Attack and arent even considered GOOD, defense can only save you so much.

Better recovery moves would just lengthen matches needlessly, though Shuckle definitely needs something.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:45:58 No.21012947 Report

Quoted By: >>21012993

>>21012222
Can you imagine if mega stones weren't a held item at some point and you could have an assault vest mega aggron

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:46:58 No.21012957 Report

Quoted By: >>21013012

>>21012208
>+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 176-208 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I actually expected this to be about 80% but I guess Filter isnt taking off an extreme amount with only a single weakness

>>21012221
If only Wailord had a triple digit defense stat.

Though there is one thing that has triple digit defenses AND extremely high HP. But no recovery.
Again, this is not biased calculations, I dont know the results until I see them.
>252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Giratina: 145-172 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
>252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 310-366 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-268 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

To clear this post from insane clutter, special side calcs in next post

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:51:02 No.21012991 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012873
not using crits to bust Unaware Quagsire's pussy open

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:51:22 No.21012993 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012873
I mentioned crits as in you'd need 5+crits in a row to finally get past the Slack-off/recover/whatever shenanigans that M-Aggron would be pulling, if he had a recovery move besides rest.

>>21012947
I'd prefer some other item, since AssVest locks you out of recovery. Rocky Helmet would make for a nice damage return, to compliment his defenses, while you can never go wrong with Leftovers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:51:42 No.21012995 Report

Quoted By: >>21013044 >>21013063

>>21012369
>The issue was that physical was shit when compared to special

Reminder that Fairy was made in order to combat everything that Close Combated

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:52:04 No.21012997 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012873
>not using crits to bust Unaware Quagsire's pussy open

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:53:27 No.21013012 Report

Quoted By: >>21014736 >>21015234

>>21012957
>>21012221
>252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 129-153 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 130-154 (19.9 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Physically, specially defensive Giratina-A outbulks them, but specially she falls behind by a significant margin.

I'm finding it hard to find a decent comparison that hits exactly as hard physically and specially, neutral to Normal, and Ghost/Dragon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:57:07 No.21013044 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012995
Physical is hurt by

Rocky Helmet
Static
Flame Body
Poison Point
Effect Spore
Rough Skin
Intimidate

Special has

Assault Vest

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 04:58:53 No.21013063 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012995
I think you meant Draco Meteor

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 05:02:12 No.21013098 Report

Quoted By:

>>21011916
80/45 defenses aren't nothing to brag about, you can overcome alomomola with both attack stats

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 06:01:00 No.21013528 Report

Quoted By: >>21020062

Mega Snorlax with Fur Coat and +50 Defense.

That's 160 / 115 / 110 defenses.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Snorlax: 231-273 (44 - 52%)

Just give it Slack Off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:11:13 No.21014736 Report

Quoted By: >>21014780 >>21014836

>>21013012
Psystrike and dream eater have the same bp and strike hits physical. They can also run off the same pokemon for calculating

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:18:18 No.21014780 Report

Quoted By:

>>21014736
Wait dream eater isn't showing up on the damage calc wtf

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:24:29 No.21014836 Report

Quoted By:

>>21014736
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 132-156 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 144-169 (28.5 - 33.5%) -- 96% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:37:37 No.21014916 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012008
>It will get a recovery move soon.
Oh yeah, I'm sure it will anon :^)

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:52:00 No.21014996 Report

Quoted By:

How can we nerf special further? AV is a good start and all, but its only one of maybe two things keeping them down, the other being sandstorms for rock types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:58:11 No.21015026 Report

Quoted By:

All high base power special moves are shit except for boomburst.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 10:58:46 No.21015030 Report

Quoted By: >>21015056

What exactly was nerfed?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 11:04:58 No.21015056 Report

Quoted By: >>21015063

>>21015030
Moves like Flamethrower and Ice Beam which were 95 base power are now 80 and things like Thunder/Blizzard/Fire Blast now hit 110 instead of 120

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 11:05:59 No.21015063 Report

Quoted By:

>>21015056
90*
not 80, mistype

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 11:37:45 No.21015209 Report

Quoted By: >>21016306

>>21011742
It's always seemed to me that physical attack is inherently worse (due to intimidate and burn, as well as many physical attackers getting worse coverage and lower base power moves without drawbacks), so they try to balance it by making physically-based Pokémon themselves better than most special Pokémon.

>>21011867
Surely Skarmory is the physical equivalent of Blissey? Especially since Blissey's weakness, fighting, is usually physical, while Skarmory's weaknesses, fire and electric, are usually special.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 11:43:35 No.21015234 Report

Quoted By:

>>21013012
>she

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 15:09:36 No.21016306 Report

Quoted By:

>>21015209
Skarmory is more of a physical equivalent of Mantine but with recovery. Skarm's HP is to low to even be considered a physical Blissey. Avalugg is the physical Blissey. Unfortunately, it was cursed thanks to it's awful defensive typing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 15:11:02 No.21016316 Report

Quoted By:

>>21012008
aaayy that wishful thinking

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 21:36:09 No.21020062 Report

Quoted By: >>21020149

>>21013528
>Snorlax
>Fur

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Sep 2014 21:41:42 No.21020149 Report

Quoted By:

>>21020062
yeah it was to show how powerful he is

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