/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #22058262

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Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:06:20 No.22058262 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>22058289 >>22058298 >>22058302 >>22058330 >>22058353 >>22058887 >>22059349 >>22059465 >>22059545

Why are neutral natures considered useless?

Is there any way to make them competitively viable?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:10:49 No.22058289 Report

Quoted By: >>22058680 >>22059509

>>22058262
Because a lot of people who play are uber offense. Going for those boosted sweepers and wrecking teams. Or really fast unboosted mons. You need enough damage to do that, and defenses don't matter so much.. Really for some mons just having good IVs in one attack stat and speed, then a helpful nature is all they need.

Of course you don't have to go uber offensive, and singles isn't the only format.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:12:08 No.22058298 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058262
Because by and large this is a game of specialists.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:13:00 No.22058302 Report

Quoted By: >>22058570

>>22058262
there's always a stat you don't care as much about as much as another stat

the closest thing was hidden power ice landorus-therian which lax nature was the most viable for

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:13:56 No.22058312 Report

Quoted By: >>22058871

Because there's never a set where you don't want an extra 10% stat boost for an important stat in exchange for 10% decrease for a less important stat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:16:34 No.22058330 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058262
i've yet to find a reason to use a neutral nature in any format

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:16:39 No.22058332 Report

Quoted By:

Because a lot of Pokemon have a useless stat? If a Pokemon is primarily physically offensive, why not get that extra 10% boost in Attack by lowering Special Attack? Same goes for defensive Pokemon. If they will only benefit from physical moves, then you have the advantage of raising a defensive stat by lowering an offensive stat you won't need.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:19:24 No.22058353 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058262
Someone at smogon calculated that stat-wise you always lose by picking up a neutral nature. I can't find the relevant post atm, but im sure it's there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:22:22 No.22058384 Report

Quoted By:

It's a shame, but even for mixed sweepers, it's better to just lower a defensive stat than miss out on the edge you get from increasing speed or an attack stat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:49:02 No.22058570 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058302
First time I've read someone uses that nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:57:04 No.22058621 Report

Quoted By:

Defensive/tank Pokemon will always run the stat they don't need (therefore something like Bold or Careful or a speed- stat), and offensive Pokemon like maximizing their offensive potential and would sacrifice either a defensive stat--or if it's already slow as balls like Aegislash--speed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 09:58:11 No.22058626 Report

Quoted By: >>22058662 >>22058696 >>22059459

Are there any Pokemon that actually need every single one of their stats?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:05:32 No.22058662 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058626
Mixed attackers with decent defensive and speed stats I guess

Arcanine, perhaps

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:09:51 No.22058680 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058289
Why the fuck did you bring up sweepers. Neutral natures are garbage for every single role you can think of because any spread using a neutral nature, defensive or offensive, can be outperformed by a spread with a boosting nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:12:46 No.22058696 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058626
Fast, mixed attackers that for some reason can't function with a Naive nature like every single fast mixed attacker that uses that nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:13:56 No.22058704 Report

Quoted By:

mathematically, since natures give such a large % boost, you can modify almost any spread to give better stats than one with a neutral nature

example:

Salamence w/ Naive + 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 88 SpD / 144 Spe

has the same stats as one with Serious + 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, except the Naive one has 20 leftover EVs to spare

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:17:24 No.22058727 Report

Quoted By: >>22058739

Mixed Mega Absol can semi-effectively run neutral nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:18:47 No.22058739 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058727
Literally why not Naive, you want to be using that nice speed tier and your SpD is garbage anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:31:41 No.22058834 Report

Quoted By:

The only thing neutral natures are really good for are in-game teams where you experiment with a mon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:37:55 No.22058871 Report

Quoted By: >>22058874

>>22058312
Bulky mixed attacker that doesn't want to lose an important speed tier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:39:00 No.22058874 Report

Quoted By: >>22059417

>>22058871
>that doesn't want to lose an important speed tier
So you mean one that's going to be running a +spe nature?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 10:40:46 No.22058887 Report

Quoted By: >>22058967 >>22059046

>>22058262
Name 1 Pokemon that can't afford to lose 10% any stat in order to boost another.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 11:01:46 No.22058967 Report

Quoted By: >>22059085

>>22058887
There's literally none at the highest competitive levels. As base stats increase, so do the boosts from natures. Pokemon with very low natural stats that ALSO happen to be all equal (like non-mega Glalie) are as close as I can come to wanting a neutral nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 11:15:09 No.22059046 Report

Quoted By: >>22059054 >>22059085

>>22058887
The mons in the lower tiers with equal/low stats overall. Meganium for example

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 11:17:01 No.22059054 Report

Quoted By: >>22059085 >>22059106

>>22059046
Any pokemon can afford to sacrifice attack for sp. attack or vice versa. You never need both, it's redundant and retarded

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 11:22:44 No.22059085 Report

Quoted By: >>22059169

>>22058967
>>22059046
So for Glalie or Meganium, would either Pokemon not benefit from a stat-boosting nature? Or would they just not be as hindered without being able to boost a stat? I can't see either Pokemon as having all stats equally viable even though they're all the same.
>>22059054
Some Pokemon can utilize both Attack and Special Attack simultaneously. In that case you just simply forfeit a defense stat. I can't think of any mixed attacker that can't afford to lose defense for attack if necessary.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 11:26:33 No.22059106 Report

Quoted By:

>>22059054
There are a handful of mixed sweepers. But in general they can afford to cut one of their lower defenses or even speed, so that they can hit harder.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 11:40:01 No.22059169 Report

Quoted By:

>>22059085
You'd rarely pick more than one attack move on Meganium, as it mainly functions as support. Maybe you'd have a special Grass move and Dragon Tail for phazing, but you don't use the latter for its damage output.

Non-mega Glalie is shit, and might completely cease to exist competitively thanks to the mega. But you'd probably pick either physical or special moves or go with one of the two classic natures for mixed sweepers: Hasty or Naive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:17:00 No.22059349 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058262
>if defensive set
Drop the lowest attacking stat to boost whatever you need
>if Atk or SpA set
Drop the lowest attacking stat to boost the other or boost Speed
>if mixed
Drop the lowest defensive stat to boost Atk, SpA, or Spe

And then there's pokemon like Aegislash that want -Spe natures. Point is, every Pokemon has a stat it can dump to gain an advantage somewhere more needed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:37:05 No.22059417 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058874
No, I mean one that is not going to lower either defenses or offenses

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 646Kyurem_Black_BW_Anime.png, 138KiB, 514x455

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:46:27 No.22059459 Report

Quoted By: >>22059491 >>22059513

>>22058626
>needs attack for Fusion Bolt/Outrage
>needs defense for surviving Bullt Punch/Mach Punch
>needs sp. attack for Ice Beam/Earth Power
>needs sp. defense so its Substitutes aren't broken by random Scalds/Volt Switches. Also useful to abuse its resistances since they're mostly special attacks
>needs speed to outspeed stuff like Landorus-T, Rotom-W and Gliscor

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:47:44 No.22059465 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058262
Because gaining 10% of a large stat at the cost of 10% of a small stat gives a higher stat total.

Also because there are few things that need to go mixed and also need to be bulky and also need to be fast. Sure, things like Garchomp like to be bulky, but they very rarely rely on it as much as they like outspeeding and OHKOing their target.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:50:30 No.22059491 Report

Quoted By:

>>22059459
Yeah mixed Kyu-B is the closest thing to "a mon that needs all of its stats". But still, mixed sets run a defense lowering nature (Def or Sp.Def, depending on what your team covers better) because it gains so much from an offense-boosting nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:56:13 No.22059509 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058289
What the fuck are you talking about?

Defensive mons will pick a nature that hinders the less useful attack stat and boosts defense.

Neutral natures are garbage because of the physical/special split. 90% of the time a mon needs only single attacking stat so it will always be better to use a nature that lower an attack and boosts something else. The rest of the cases are trick room mons that will lower their speed and the last 1% is about mixed attackers that they're either fine with lower a defensive stat or lowering the less used attack stat (ex. VGC TTar is fine going timid/modest because rock slide will kill what it needs to kill either way)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 12:57:50 No.22059513 Report

Quoted By: >>22059537 >>22059542

>>22059459
And that's why, despite being a cover legendary with BST of 700, it's in OU.

While Zekrom is in Ubers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 13:02:28 No.22059537 Report

Quoted By:

>>22059513
Lack of Ice Punch is bullshit, and overall the fact that pretty much all physical ice moves are rubbish despite it being such an offensive type (on paper at least).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 13:03:22 No.22059542 Report

Quoted By:

>>22059513
The exact reason for Kyu-B being OU isn't clear, all we know is that just a little push would send it straight to ubers like many custom metagames on Smogon have proven.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Dec 2014 13:04:15 No.22059545 Report

Quoted By:

>>22058262
How about this:

Neutral natures all give 1.1 while there's lots of none neutral natures that gives 1.2 in one stat but gives 0.9 in 2 other stats.

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