/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #22326306

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Evasion buffs

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 11:18:12 No.22326306 View View Reply Original Report

So are Minimize and Double Team flat-out banned from competitive play? Aren't they balanced by accuracy-boosting moves, and moves like Foresight?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 11:22:34 No.22326324 Report

Quoted By:

they aren't balanced. either everything would have to run accuracy boosting moves or games would take ten days and end with struggling.

probably a combination of both. accuracy would become the main factor in winning. i.e. overcentralization.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 11:25:10 No.22326332 Report

Quoted By: >>22326350 >>22326474 >>22326563 >>22326725

Try playing on cart. Bitches forfeit the second my Drifblim Baton Passes two Minimizes onto Mega Ray. There's no commitment to battles anymore.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 11:28:25 No.22326350 Report

Quoted By: >>22326474

>>22326332
nice i bet your mom is proud, you rape those kids xDD

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 11:50:51 No.22326474 Report

Quoted By:

>>22326332
Found one of the kids you owned
-> >>22326350

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 12:13:38 No.22326563 Report

Quoted By:

>>22326332
>my Drifblim Baton Passes two Minimizes onto Mega Ray

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 12:53:38 No.22326714 Report

Quoted By: >>22329205

>>22326306
Competetivefags can't deal with actual strategy, so everything has to be banned.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 12:56:15 No.22326725 Report

Quoted By: >>22329845

>>22326332
>Aggron used Heavy Slam!

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:05:54 No.22329205 Report

Quoted By: >>22329211 >>22329216 >>22329224 >>22329979

>>22326714

>moves that turn the game into pure luck
>strategy

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:07:12 No.22329211 Report

Quoted By: >>22329239 >>22329866

>>22329205
>moves that counter it exist
Yeah bro.

To be fair, it would be a more toxic game w/ double team. I mean, we allow SR which basically breaks 50% or more of pokemon, competitively, so I'd rather not have more moves which require you to have your team pack shit like foresight. Look at how mandatory defog/rapid spin are, though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:08:43 No.22329216 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329205
Well, there's no denying that forcing the game into luck-of-the-draw is some kind of strategy... whether it's a good one is up for debate.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:10:45 No.22329224 Report

Quoted By: >>22329229 >>22329505

>>22329205
Its still a strategy just not as epic as stalling

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:12:29 No.22329229 Report

Quoted By: >>22329244

>>22329224
It's far more epic than stalling. :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:14:07 No.22329239 Report

Quoted By: >>22329252

>>22329211
>I mean, we allow SR which basically breaks 50% or more of pokemon, competitively,
Do you even know what you're talking about?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:15:23 No.22329244 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329229
You're more epic than stalling

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:17:00 No.22329252 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329239
Does /vp/ ever?
>why is le mewtwo banned just use sucker punch xD

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:42:59 No.22329451 Report

Quoted By: >>22329479

>Aren't they balanced by accuracy-boosting moves, and moves like Foresight?

No.

All of the perfect accuracy attacks are weak as shit. You'll never kill anything with them, and in the meantime your opponent can boost his defenses even further and just stall you out.

Foresight is a waste of a moveslot that few pokemon can spare. You'll waste a turn resetting the opponent's evasion stat. But in that turn that Drifblim can just continue to Stockpile, or resume using Minimize, or even just attack. Plus, if the opponent isn't using evasion it's even more than useless.

There are only two moves which reliably raise accuracy: coil and hone claws. Coil is basically a snake based version of bulk up, so it's actually not that bad. But its distribution is restricted to snake type pokemon. Of those, Milotic is the only one who might be any good in OU. And it has better things it can use than coil.

Hone claws is a tm with decent distribution. But a +1 buff to attack is just too small to warrant the moveslot in most cases.

Really, the only reliable way of handling evasion is a phazing move or a fast taunt lead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:47:08 No.22329479 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329451
>Really, the only reliable way of handling evasion is a phazing move or a fast taunt lead.
Of course, if your opponent isn't an idiot, he's not going to just start spamming minimize at the start of the match. He's going to wait and get rid of your phazers and taunters before he does anything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:50:26 No.22329505 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329224
>implying evasion doesn't go hand in hand with stalling

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 19:55:34 No.22329542 Report

Quoted By: >>22329625

So because it takes skill to counter evasion, Smogon bans evasion.

Figures that only Smogon would ban something that actually requires the opponent to be skilled enough to counterplay.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:04:18 No.22329625 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329542
If you completely ignore the fact that it creates shitty stallfests and forces the metagame to be centered around evasion/counter evasion shenanigans, then yeah, Smogon hates skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:12:46 No.22329722 Report

Quoted By: >>22329744 >>22329760 >>22329765 >>22329775 >>22329783

There are moves which never miss and double their power when used on minimize user, are those any good at all?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:14:57 No.22329744 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329722
Only Aura Sphere, but that has such shitty distribution.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:16:29 No.22329760 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329722
But what if the opponent uses Double Team instead of Minimize?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:17:13 No.22329765 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329722
Body slam is meh.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:18:16 No.22329775 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329722
Body slam is okay. It's seen mostly because of the paralysis chance.

Dragon rush would be ok if not for the 75% accuracy.

Stomp and Steamroller are too weak ordinarily to be of much use, I think.

Flying press is Hawlucha and Pikachu only.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:19:41 No.22329783 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329722
Everybody would just use Double Team instead. DT is one of the most widely distributed moves in the game anyways.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:21:15 No.22329800 Report

Quoted By: >>22329846

Evasion turns the game into luck, therefore skill-less. Moves that never miss are usually pretty weak aside from aura sphere, which has shit distribution. Why the fuck are we still arguing this shit?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:27:02 No.22329845 Report

Quoted By:

>>22326725
You mean Body Slam? Heavy Slam isn't affected by Minimize.

Even so, max atk adamant mega Aggron using Body Slam on Mega Ray with no defensive investment would do around 60% at best.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:27:04 No.22329846 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329800
I'm pretty its just used as a talking point to whine about smogon being totalitarian

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:30:03 No.22329866 Report

Quoted By:

>>22329211
>I mean, we allow SR which basically breaks 50% or more of pokemon
Are you speaking about rocks breaking mons that would be great with sash or sturdy? Because that's 100% a good thing. If sturdy/sash went unchecked the game would be nothign but chaisn of revenge killing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 20:41:28 No.22329979 Report

Quoted By: >>22330238

>>22329205

>Implying the game dont depends on luck

>Let's ban all the moves that don't have 100% of acurracy.

>Let´s ban all the moves that has added effects with a ratio lower than 100%

>Let's ban all the moves that don't have fixed damage

>No luck in this game

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 21:11:12 No.22330238 Report

Quoted By: >>22330260

>>22329979
>stalling
Blatant RNG as a mechanic is not the same as risk management.

Using Stone Edge over Rock Slide is risk management.
Using Scald over Surf is Risk management.
Using Fissure or Horn Drill is trusting in RNG to win the game for you.

There is a difference. One is a skill you can train that has to do with your ability to assess the situation and weighing the ups and downs of risking a move that might for example miss against each other and then making the right choice. The other has nothing to do with the mentioned things and is called blind luck when it actually works.

The Swagger ban was a borderline case because it was on the extreme edge of risk management. Smogon decided to play it safe when they banned it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Dec 2014 21:12:38 No.22330260 Report

Quoted By:

>>22330238
Ignore the accidental greentext.

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