/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #22407312

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:01:10 No.22407312 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>22407333 >>22407341 >>22407349 >>22407353 >>22407422 >>22407720 >>22407743 >>22408332 >>22409293 >>22411265 >>22411327 >>22411696 >>22411837

>http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-12/oususpecttest-1825.txt
>40% usage
>Politoed at its peak in Gen 5 was around 20% usage
>4 out of every 5 battles on average will have a Landorus-T
>1/6 will have both players using Lando-T
Have you bowed down to your new God yet, /vp/?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:03:30 No.22407333 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312

It's grrrrrreat!

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:04:59 No.22407341 Report

Quoted By: >>22407671 >>22411325

>>22407312
B-but greninja over centralizes, we must ban the frog not the genies!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:05:46 No.22407349 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
>praise the lion :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:06:03 No.22407353 Report

Quoted By: >>22407482

>>22407312
>4 out of every 5 battles on average will have a Landorus-T
Are you sure your math is right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:13:48 No.22407422 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
What does the 1825 mean?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:15:29 No.22407434 Report

Quoted By:

dem smogons sure luv their earthquakes

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:15:56 No.22407438 Report

Quoted By:

Lando is up next to be kicked out of OU

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:17:55 No.22407460 Report

Quoted By: >>22407520

Anyone else like to run focus sash exploding landorus-T?

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-38712870

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:20:52 No.22407482 Report

Quoted By: >>22407518 >>22411461 >>22414202

>>22407353

if you assume your team and your opponent's team have a 40% chance to have a moustache cat then it works out

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:25:06 No.22407518 Report

Quoted By: >>22407550

>>22407482
No, it does not work out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:25:14 No.22407520 Report

Quoted By: >>22407532 >>22407536

>>22407460
how is someone running forretress and espeon in ou in the 1600s? i genuinely thought it was a sub 1200 replay seeing that guys team until i skipped to the end

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:26:49 No.22407532 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407520
ah nevermind, didn't realize it was gen5 til i watched it

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:27:12 No.22407536 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407520
its a replay that i saved from before XY

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:28:29 No.22407550 Report

Quoted By: >>22407695 >>22407709 >>22411672

>>22407518
Chances of you having a lando: 40%
Chances of the opponent having a lando: 40%
Chances of you and/or your opponent having a lando: 40%+40%=80%=4/5

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:30:48 No.22407576 Report

Quoted By: >>22407596 >>22407687 >>22411203 >>22411477 >>22412351

OU will be shit until genies are banned

Tornanus can stay

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:32:47 No.22407596 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407576
thank doc

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:33:07 No.22407600 Report

Quoted By: >>22408641

Oh look a lando-T in team preview. Good thing I have a physical wall/and or something with ice.

I don't see how it's a problem.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:38:17 No.22407671 Report

Quoted By: >>22411318 >>22411523

>>22407341
There's nothing wrong with this statement. A match between equally skilled opponents being skewed by team matchup is rather common.
The problem with Greninja is that it's so good it requires a dedicated offensive check in form of something that's even faster than it. Unless your team is full stall, everything else is going to get torn down unless you guess its moveset correctly and just happen to have a switch-in intact. Same reason Garchomp got banned in Gen 4.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:39:34 No.22407687 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407576
>that filename
kek'd

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:40:23 No.22407695 Report

Quoted By: >>22407828

>>22407550
it doesn't work like this. It doesn't AT ALL.

Probability of both NOT having a Landorus is (6/10)^2 = 36/100.
So the opposite (there's one Landorus or more) is 1-36/100 = 64%
Not 80%.

It's still fucking high as fuck

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:42:00 No.22407709 Report

Quoted By: >>22407828

>>22407550
That's not how math works.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:42:47 No.22407720 Report

Quoted By: >>22409327

>>22407312
Genies are fucking cancer and there is always a excuse for keeping them around.

>"No Thundurus is not cancer! Ban Swagger"
>Still runs around insta paralyzing or outright killing everything
>"Landorus is vital to teambuilding it's not cancer!"
>In virtually every team in the whole tier in either of it's forms

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:45:04 No.22407737 Report

Quoted By:

to everyone in this thread:

git gud, if ur below 1800 your're opinion doesn't matter

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:45:19 No.22407743 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
I-I-I-It's a good kind of centralizing!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:52:11 No.22407816 Report

Quoted By: >>22408431 >>22408845

more people on /vp/ need to read this article, especially anyone saying lando-t should or will be banned
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:53:51 No.22407828 Report

Quoted By: >>22407858

>>22407695
>>22407709
Okay, hold on. Let's check out each instance.
Chances of player A having a lando whilst player B does not: 0.4x0.6=0.24
Chances of player A not having a lando whilst player B does: 0.6x0.4=0.24
Chances of both players having a lando: 0.4x0.4=0.16
Chances of neither players having landos (I am now just realising the other calcs are pointless): 0.36

Right, yes.
64% chance of there being a lando in any given battle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 22:56:45 No.22407858 Report

Quoted By: >>22407933

>>22407828
So thats 3/5, not 4/5

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:03:07 No.22407933 Report

Quoted By: >>22408008

>>22407858
Yep.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:08:59 No.22408008 Report

Quoted By: >>22408471

>>22407933
Ok, then the OP is a retard

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:27:29 No.22408216 Report

Quoted By: >>22410191

| 1 | Rayquaza | 66.07503% | 164674 | 30.332% | 94721 | 27.517% |
| 2 | Arceus | 55.01085% | 54255 | 9.993% | 29494 | 8.568% |
| 3 | Klefki | 50.97634% | 121944 | 22.461% | 45116 | 13.107% |

Cancer: The Tier

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:36:46 No.22408332 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
>suspect test ladder

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:44:01 No.22408431 Report

Quoted By: >>22408853 >>22411234

>>22407816

so, why Landorus isnt "cheap" and greninja is "cheap" and must be banned?

why greninja or swagger over-centralizing the metagame is good and Landorus/Thundurus in every team is a good thing?

P.S idk if thundurus is banned

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:47:43 No.22408471 Report

Quoted By: >>22408781

>>22408008
Are you dumb? You faggots are talkig about either player having a Landorus. OP only talks about a single player; the general usage. You even used the 40% OP states for your math.
Back to elementary school, faggot.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:52:48 No.22408542 Report

Quoted By: >>22411465

Wouldn't Greninja be a lot less relevant without genies around?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jan 2015 23:59:20 No.22408641 Report

Quoted By: >>22408853

>>22407600

How does an Ice pokemon, even an Ice Sharder, do shit against Lando?

>Lando-T comes out
>Oh that's weak to Ice, better switch to my Weavile
>SE UTurn to the face
>Rinse and repeat

You never actually hit it with an Ice move, you just run them to scare them off. And Lord knows they'll always have a Keldeo or some other pokemon you see on every team to wall the fuck out of your Ice user.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:02:40 No.22408682 Report

Quoted By:

Cool to see Raikou so high up there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:08:20 No.22408781 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408471
>4 out of every 5 battles on average will have a Landorus-T
Stop being retarded on purpose.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:10:49 No.22408825 Report

Quoted By: >>22408941

Lando-T is only used so much because it can switch in at least once or twice against most of the insane physical threats and scare them out. It's not because itself is a overwhelming physical sweeper, it's because there's so many *other* overwhelming physical sweepers.

It's only centralizing in that it's really common and you should have a check to it (of which there are a lot.) Greninja is centralizing in that it's really common AND it requires very specialized checks. Do you have a bulky grass, water or rock-neutral flying type? Okay, there's your LanT check. Do you have very specific bulky waters or Chansey? No? Is most of your team above 377 speed? No? Well have fun with Greninja.

Also, being a defensive-type, LanT can be lured with stuff like Wisp X-zard and Ice Beam Tyranitar. Thundurus is too frail and also rock weak, it sacs itself to get that T-wave off and has a lot of checks as well. If you legitimately think Genies are more ban-worthy than Greninja, you need to git gud.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:12:47 No.22408845 Report

Quoted By: >>22408860 >>22408897 >>22408905 >>22408986 >>22411811

>>22407816

I don't know if you thoroughly read your own link, but:

> And if the two groups meet, of course the experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

Sound familiar?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:13:32 No.22408853 Report

Quoted By: >>22409000 >>22409028

>>22408431
landorus-t has counters, greninja doesn't. i agree swagger shouldn't have been banned, but it was it was deemed too luck based like evasion (aka people just found it annoying to play against).
>>22408641
>switching in a frail as fuck mon like weavile in on anything
>not using rotom-w or ferrothorn to wall the shit out of landorus
>not making predictions for obvious u turns
>not gitting gud

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:14:34 No.22408860 Report

Quoted By: >>22409078

>>22408845
Yeah, if that other group that plays 6v6 singles all the time were to challenge the average smogon tourney player, the smogon tourney player would get curbstomped :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:17:57 No.22408897 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408845
Pokemon's skill ceiling is way, waaaay too low for this to really apply.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:18:43 No.22408905 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408845
interpret it how you want, but playing smogon ou on a simulator isn't the same thing as playing ranked on cart at all and no one has tried to say otherwise. a vgc player will probably beat a smogon ou player in a vgc match, go figure, they're completely different metas.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:22:25 No.22408941 Report

Quoted By: >>22409420

>>22408825
To be fair, I wouldn't mind it at all if Thundurus got kicked up to Ubers because Prankster T-Wave backed up by his raw fuckoff power is beyond irritating. But you're right about Greninja being infinitely more cancerous than either of the genies in OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:26:12 No.22408986 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408845
The only two formats that anyone plays are Smogon OU and VCG. Nobody gives a shit about cart singles.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:27:04 No.22409000 Report

Quoted By: >>22409026 >>22409064

>>22408853
The whole has counters is a terrible argument I think. Just because a pokemon can be countered every time doesn't mean it can't be overcentralizing the meta. So what half teams running Lando is a good thing because as long as everyone runs a counter for it that's okay. But everyone having to run counters for it centralizes the meta even more. It's not a good thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:29:32 No.22409026 Report

Quoted By: >>22409066

>>22409000
The thing with Lando-T is the counters to it just sort of happen when teambuilding without even trying. It's used because it itself checks a lot of the meta, but on the other side a lot of the meta can check it. You don't have to bring up something obscure like Porygon2 to handle it, there's a lot of options to handle it that don't make your team worse.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:29:37 No.22409028 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408853

>Anon claims running an Ice type is the end-all of Lando-T
>I explain how this claim is wrong as getting sniped by repeated U-Turns wears you down fast, and even if you double switch on it AND have 4x SE priority, it can just switch out to a resist
>I need to git gud

This is a common trend I keep seeing on this board; it's not that you're proving to be bad at the game it's that you're not reading posts properly. I think you are the exact same anon from this morning who said something similar, your posting style is the same. Git gud at reading ffs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:32:39 No.22409064 Report

Quoted By: >>22409090 >>22409123

>>22409000
so you suggest banning lando-t so something else can be #1 in usage? the definition of uber, in smogons own words is:
>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
just because it's used doesn't make it broken. plenty in ou deals with it, it has solid counters that are relevant in the tier, and it can't single handedly sweep teams with little effort.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:32:41 No.22409066 Report

Quoted By: >>22409103

>>22409026
>implying you need porygon2 to take down greninja
You need to be able to predict its set. It requires a bit of skill, but he's easy enough to beat if you aren't retarded. If you can't predict it yeah throw porygon on every team. But the problem then is you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:33:47 No.22409078 Report

Quoted By: >>22409124 >>22409190 >>22409233

>>22408860

The obvious implication being that Smogon is the homemade arbitrary variant with unwritten rules while something like VGC would be the real game, you dense asshole.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:34:53 No.22409087 Report

Quoted By:

Why is Swagger banned? You can counter it with Own Tempo.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:35:07 No.22409090 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409064
>A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
But that's not true. Greninja just can't sweep through most teams without knowing how to use it. It's incredible frail even with its high speed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:36:12 No.22409103 Report

Quoted By: >>22409147

>>22409066
Predicting the set doesn't help when you do not have something that can actually check the set. Only a few specific pokemon can check all of its commonly-used sets, if you don't have them then your team is weak to at least one variant of Greninja. Things like Tentacruel, Slowbro, etc. they only check sets, not the whole pokemon. This is why people use things like P2, because it checks ALL of the sets.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:36:53 No.22409113 Report

Quoted By:

I'd rather just not play the game at all

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:38:10 No.22409123 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409064

I actually wouldn't mind if something else became #1 over Lando-T, because any physical sweeper bar Bisharp and maybe M-Gyarados can't do a goddamn fucking thing when Lando is still on the field. It's fast and spams U-Turn. Priority gets you nowhere. And if you've played the suspect ladder you'll be seeing a lot of defensive Lefties Lando now. Fuck that shit, it's not fun for the metagame to have Lando anymore. Exactly like Greninja. Ban Greninja and Lando, maybe Thundurus too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:38:15 No.22409124 Report

Quoted By: >>22409171

>>22409078
but the reason smogon exists in the first place is because people wanted a ranked 6v6 singles format, which doesn't exist on the game. it's a different format/metagame entirely and can't really be compared to vgc in that way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:40:09 No.22409147 Report

Quoted By: >>22409252

>>22409103
>if you don't have them then your team is weak to at least one variant of Greninja.
And? you can't have a team that checks every single pokemon every time. There will always be pokemon your team can't check properly. You don't have to have a perfect team which can counter everything. You really don't have to check every pokemon do you? No seriously why would a team need to be able to check every single pokemon? If it doesn't then why do you need to be able to check all of greninja's sets at once when it can only run one at a time?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:43:05 No.22409171 Report

Quoted By: >>22409258

>>22409124

But the comparison could be made to, say, a 6v6 Smogon format that DOESN'T have an ever-growing list of bans and arbitrary rules? Maybe the better comparison would be that the current Smogon metagame is the arbitrary, imaginary metagame while something like a 6v6 Singles format with very few bans, maybe one or two absolutely borked pokemon, would be the real game?

Like that one secret character he brings up in that article that's basically the only character banned from play because it's just that broken, to a point where it will beat any other character 9-10 times out of 10. And that simply isn't the case with things like Greninja, and possibly some other suspects that have already been banned that I won't name but were somewhat controversial.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:45:28 No.22409190 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409078
>VGC would be the real game
>Still has clauses and ban
Lol
Bringing Sirlin's philosophy in pokemon doesn't work because the game isn't balanced for competitive play. The equivalent of the "real game" for pokemon would have no clauses and most likely no ban (maybe Mega Ray)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:49:22 No.22409233 Report

Quoted By: >>22409283 >>22409792

>>22409078
Smogon was founded in 2004. VGC came around in 2006. Just a quick fyi.

Smogon provides 6v6 singles (and also Doubles. And Triples. And lower tiers for underpowered pokemon. And Hackmons and what fucking ever.) Gamefreak does not do this. Because Gamefreak has stopped caring long ago about how powerful pokemon should be and rely on doubles mechanics to do the work for them, 6v6 require different rules for them to be bearable.

Since it's admittedly a non-official format, how far these rules go is determined by the community who plays it but the outcome is a meta that's more enjoyable compared to one with fewer rules.

Comparing smog singles to VGC is like comparing the ancient Chess precursors. Yes this is a Chess analogy. They all used roughly the same pieces, but had slightly different rules. But back then, no one really bitched at people for playing one proto-Chess ruleset over another, because they were hundreds of miles away from each other and the Internet didn't exist yet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:51:40 No.22409252 Report

Quoted By: >>22409287

>>22409147
>No seriously why would a team need to be able to check every single pokemon? If it doesn't then why do you need to be able to check all of greninja's sets at once when it can only run one at a time?
Cause Greninja is super common and has better sweeping potential than many of the other pokemon that are harder to check, e.g. SD Terrakion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:52:11 No.22409258 Report

Quoted By: >>22409275 >>22409283

>>22409171
that's a bigger argument than whether or not lando-t is broken though. i agree that i'd like to see what a 6v6 "ou" would be like with minimal bans, i think something like that would satisfy people on both sides.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:53:47 No.22409275 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409258
whoops just want to clarify i meant the inclusion of something like this alongside OU as it is right now. so you'd have '6v6 cart singles' (or a more appropriate name) as an option on showdown as well

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:54:09 No.22409283 Report

Quoted By: >>22409453

>>22409233

I conceded this point. My main point is that Smogon is getting away with being the scrub party that uses imaginary, arbitrary rules with a ridiculous amount of bans just because there's no competing 6v6 Singles format to compare them to. If there was, Smogon would most definitely be the scrub party.

>>22409258

Like this nigga says.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:54:41 No.22409287 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409252
It doesn't have amazing sweeping potential against every team it goes up against. Acting like it does is just silly.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:55:26 No.22409293 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
>>4 out of every 5 battles on average will have a Landorus-T

That would mean an 80% usage

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 00:58:13 No.22409327 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407720
You can't have a team without ie it's vital

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 01:07:52 No.22409420 Report

Quoted By: >>22409875

>>22408941
THIS

Thunderus is literally a "get out of jail free" card should you find some way to set up. He can just come in and thunderwave in the middle of your sweep. Unless you're packing a lum berry or happen to be ground or electric typed, you're fucked.

He can even set up right after with nasty plot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 01:12:32 No.22409453 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409283
>just because there's no competing 6v6 Singles format to compare them to. If there was, Smogon would most definitely be the scrub party.
Well in fairness, there's Pokemon Online, who has pretty much the same bans, because, as it turns out, playing against OP shit isn't fun. Amongst people who know what they're talking about, i.e. the people who agree that things like Mega Salamence or Mega Mom are way too much, the only contest is where the line between broken and just really good is. I guess it could also be differences in philosophy, e.g. Mega Gengar could be deemed okay because it's not outrageously broken on its own, it just makes defensive archetypes and a lot of pokemon (I do mean a lot) not viable, so it's a contest of how much it's okay to warp the meta like that or if we should care about that at all.

Mega Salamence and stuff, there's no contest. They're too good, they allow inexperienced players beat much more skillful players simply because they're so ridiculously powerful. Things like Aegislash and Greninja, and even Mega Gengar, it's more the second point, i.e. how much should a single pokemon, out of hundreds, be allowed to determine what's good and what's not in the meta. If there were ever a "rival" to smogon that didn't care about, they would still have a lot of the same bans because it's simply not fun to play against insane sweepers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 01:46:54 No.22409754 Report

Quoted By:

love how so many deluded faggots try to defend smogon, they only ever ban things like greninja or garchomp when people get so fed up with it and their meta that people start leaving the site lando's the same he'll get a few months then suddenly out of the blue lando suspect test and ban.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 01:51:06 No.22409792 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409233
>Because Gamefreak has stopped caring long ago about how powerful pokemon should be
you forgot they buffed a lot of pokemon in gen 5 not that it helped barrelt the tried

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 01:57:14 No.22409875 Report

Quoted By:

>>22409420
Thundurus is the "You get rewarded for being at a disadvantage" Pokemon. Even if the other Pokemon outspeeds and kills Thundurus, he can just get fullpara once or twice and it got outplayed. All while having a cool speed tier and offenses. And that's coming from someone that used the thing, first as a panic button for Genesect, and now because fuck these 160 speed Megas.

It's as straight up cancerous you can get, yet you get 18 years old Smogon mods being like "lol ban Mawile its le cancer XD". Then naturally people dickride, even if it's some retard kid saying it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 02:03:17 No.22409939 Report

Quoted By: >>22410196 >>22412047

What I like about Smogon is that their tier system tries to make it so all the "bro" mons are useful in the right tier (for instance, Garbodor is ass in VGC/online, but is great in PU and useable in NU). This makes Garbodor fans (they are few, but they do exist) very happy.

What I don't like is when something falls through the cracks and sucks in it's own tier but is too strong for the one below it and ends up in a borderline or ubers when it's too weak for ubers. Deoxys Neutral and Volcarona are great examples of this. Volcarona is stuck in BL, so you can't use it in UU, but then if you tried to use it in OU, it's pretty crappy. Dies to Stealth Rocks, Brave Birds, walled by Heatran, the list goes on. Deoxys Neutral, while okay in Ubers is outclassed by Deoxys Attack, so there is no reason to ever use it.

I guess what I'm saying is I wish there were more tiers. I think everyone would be happy if there were more tiers so that every pokemon would be usable or even good in some context of some tier. That way no one is left behind. Smogon has a good system that works toward this, but it's far from perfect and it could be years when they, hell if they ever achieve this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 02:26:39 No.22410191 Report

Quoted By: >>22411152 >>22411814

>>22408216
| 36 | Numel | 2.53969% | 493 | 1.779% | 220 | 1.436% |
| 37 | Giratina | 2.52305% | 508 | 1.833% | 312 | 2.036% |
kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 02:26:57 No.22410196 Report

Quoted By: >>22412047

>>22409939
With each tier giving you access to all the pokemon in tiers beneath it. Well more tiers in theory would give each mon a place to shine without breaking the balance. However then you are splitting up the community even more. Who is going to play all these new tiers?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 11:08:02 No.22410229 Report

Quoted By: >>22411190

Aegislash is almost on every team
>le overcentralizing meme, banhammer.webm
Landorus-T is fucking 40% usage
>It's healthy for the meta, I swear !

How can a bunch of faggots doing it for free be that hyprocrite ?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:15:11 No.22411152 Report

Quoted By: >>22411156

>>22410191
Based Numel hard countering swagshit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:16:13 No.22411156 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411152
>Klefki used Hidden Power Water!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:25:29 No.22411190 Report

Quoted By: >>22411224 >>22411263

>>22410229
name aegslash counter(s)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:29:01 No.22411203 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407576
>

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:36:25 No.22411224 Report

Quoted By: >>22411233 >>22411284

>>22411190
chansey
mandibuzz
literally every special wall

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:38:00 No.22411233 Report

Quoted By: >>22411278 >>22411328

>>22411224
Chansey gets walled by aegi since it does nothing to it
Mandibuzz loses to subtoxic and headsmash
Most special walls lose to subtoxic sd and headsmash

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:38:38 No.22411234 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408431

People are claiming that because Lando is used often, it makes him cheap. He is good, but you have to prove beyond some metric that he is cheap.

I think Thundurus is cheaper because he has better ways to handle his checks than Lando does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:40:34 No.22411263 Report

Quoted By: >>22411284

>>22411190

Not the same guy, but just off the top of my head:

Mandibuzz
Hippowdon
Conkeldurr
Most tanky things with access to Foul Play

Checks: Bisharp, Tyranitar, Heatran, Excadrill, things that can Sub or otherwise bait out King's Shield, things with non-contact moves, etc.

Basically anything that doesn't mind a weak as shit Shadow Sneak can revenge it or come in on one of it's other limited moves. It's a good poke but it hardly deserved to get banned.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:41:04 No.22411265 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
Golurk

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:44:00 No.22411278 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411233
Just sayin, standard mandi was taunt, which still beat subtoxic aegis
Head Smash is also terrible, Flash Cannon pressures Mandi almost as much and does better vs literally everything else except Zapdos

Subtoxic and Head Smash actually do really poorly compared to most aegis sets vs a lot of Special Walls, again with the exception of Zapdos.

Good job having no idea what you're talking about m8.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:45:10 No.22411284 Report

Quoted By: >>22411309 >>22411328

>>22411263
>>22411224
do people forget that aegislash mainly runs mix with sacred sword or toxic stall set?

at least someone acknowledge that bisharps a check not a counter

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:51:48 No.22411309 Report

Quoted By: >>22411338

>>22411284

I am well aware of what Aegi runs.

Mandibuzz is a hard stop to every set as Taunt and Foul Play ruin it.
Hippowdon has the raw bulk to take any hit, although it may have trouble dealing with SubToxic if it comes in on the wrong move.
Conk needs to play around King's Shield but Knock Off murders it.

I didn't even mention Sableye as a counter or Lopunny as a check because they didn't cross my mind but there's two more options for dealing with it. Hell, Chesnaught could probably check it too if you wanted to run like Earthquake or something gay.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:52:53 No.22411318 Report

Quoted By: >>22411541

>>22407671
I don't really think you believe te bullshit you type

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:54:10 No.22411325 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407341
context? he sounds like he's joking

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:54:31 No.22411327 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
Now at his impact

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:54:32 No.22411328 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411233
>SD
WoW bait
>Subtoxic
ok, it wins against mandibuzz but loses against literally everything else
>head smash
le trashman faec

Everyone fucking knows the only set you should use is Special/Mixed or defensive if you want to surprise your opponent, but then you become total taunt bait.

>>22411284
Sacred Sword does jack shit to Chansey since it's not even STAB.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:56:01 No.22411338 Report

Quoted By: >>22411344 >>22411355

>>22411309
does smogon ever unban in the same gen

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:56:55 No.22411344 Report

Quoted By: >>22411353

>>22411338
yes, several times

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:59:10 No.22411351 Report

Quoted By: >>22411364 >>22411434

Why was Aegislash banned in the first place ? I'm reading the conversation in this thread and it looks to me it shouldn't have been kicked. It is strong, but not that strong it's non-manageable.
BRING BACK SMOGON SWORD
BACK
SMOGON
SWORD

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 16:59:59 No.22411353 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411344
how do the unbanning process go? do they retest?

because most people were banning aegislash just to get rid of it not giving proper reasons

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:00:58 No.22411355 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411338

They've done it in the past and I sincerely hope they retest Aegislash as a result of ORAS additions. He was never unbeatable, just required a bit of prediction and well made plays. I really want to see him brought back into the meta cause he's such a fucking cool mon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:04:04 No.22411364 Report

Quoted By: >>22411385 >>22411417

>>22411351
It had about a 35% vote to get banned, but in the final days of the suspect test (when mods started leaking the results) there was a "sudden swing" where people took back their vote and changed it to ban, causing in the end for Aegis to get banned by 2 votes. It's pretty accepted that somewhere players behind the scene did something to force these vote changes, and rigged the vote. Since then rule changes have come to suspect tests to prevent this, including no longer allowing players to change their vote.

Before this it was just mindless shitposters on /vp/ argue smogon tests are rigged, but in the case of Aegis the test was actually rigged to ban it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:11:06 No.22411385 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411364
>It's pretty accepted that somewhere players behind the scene did something to force these vote changes, and rigged the vote
I was under the impression that it wasn't rigged, but the Smogon tournament circlejerk pressured people to change their vote, including indirectly pushing this notion that "if you don't agree with this ban you're a clueless scrub" that scares newer/less known players from going against them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:19:50 No.22411417 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411364
So first Aegislash then Shadow Tag.
I have nothing against Smogon Rules since I play by them, but holy shit the higher heads are some cheeky motherfuckers

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:24:04 No.22411434 Report

Quoted By: >>22411445 >>22411468

>>22411351
Same reason Mawile was banned, uninformed ignorance, vote rigging and peer pressure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:25:31 No.22411445 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411434
That's sad

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:29:20 No.22411461 Report

Quoted By: >>22411464

>>22407482
You're absolutely right.

That also means if each team has a 60% chance to have a particular Pokémon there is a 120% chance for either team to have one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:32:11 No.22411464 Report

Quoted By: >>22411469

>>22411461Anyone having trouble uploading pictures?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:32:16 No.22411465 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408542
No.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:34:19 No.22411468 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411434
b-but mawile is always at +2, behind a sub, and has 3 layers of spikes set up on anything that comes in on it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:34:22 No.22411469 Report

Quoted By: >>22411476

>>22411464
moot being a faggot as usual

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:35:28 No.22411476 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411469
Ah thanks. Looks like fucking around with 4chan x was pointless

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:35:36 No.22411477 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407576
doc thank

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:38:11 No.22411485 Report

Quoted By: >>22411499 >>22411509 >>22411511 >>22411512 >>22411514

The funniest thing is that there is a hard counter to Greninja. It's called Conkeldurr.
>b-but muh extrasensory! muh shadow sneak!
Greninja never runs these moves.
>b-but muh gunk shot! muh mach punch resistance!
Conkeldurr used Earthquake.

It's easy as fuck to counter Greninja, just use your brain.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:41:48 No.22411499 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411485
>Greninja never runs Extrasensory
epic argument m8

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:46:00 No.22411509 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411485
>Greninja never run these moves
>Conkeldurr used earthquake!
Kek nice one m8t

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:46:11 No.22411511 Report

Quoted By: >>22411516 >>22411517

>>22411485
>X Pokemon can counter Greninja as long as you have PERFECT prediction

Oh my god, /vp/ is this shit at competitive.
And they thought once that they could make a meta better than smogon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:46:28 No.22411512 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411485
And if Greninja DOES run those? What can Conkeldurr do? Its priority becomes useless to the now psychic or ghost typing of Greninja. Everything else comes after due to Conkeldurr's incredibly low speed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:46:42 No.22411514 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411485
So every team will be Greninja, Conkeldurr, Conkeldurr-Counter, Conkeldurr-Counter-Counter, Greninja-back up, Greninja-check

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:47:40 No.22411516 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411511
if VP did make a meta
HA typhlosions Gatr mega Lucario gengar and genesect be legal

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:47:47 No.22411517 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411511
>Greninja counters need prediction but Greninja doesn't

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:51:20 No.22411523 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407671
>The problem with Greninja is that it's so good it requires a dedicated offensive check in form of something that's even faster than it.
Unless you run Porygon2.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:52:13 No.22411525 Report

Quoted By: >>22411535 >>22411542

Greninjas ban is M lucarios all over again
>Frail
>just use sashed stuff
>it wont do good in Ubers

greninja is unpredictable as fuck its can run anything viable it wants to and you've gotta risk to try and revenge it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:55:10 No.22411535 Report

Quoted By: >>22411538 >>22411550

>>22411525
>It wont do good in Ubers
Like we fucking care
That's not how bans work

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:56:10 No.22411538 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411535
yep it sounds stupid and that is some peoples arguments

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:57:03 No.22411541 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411318

Theres literally nothing wrong with what he posted. Greninjas ridiculously versatile and you cant figure out what coverage he has till you sacked a few Pokemon first.

Its JUST like Gen4 Garchomp in that respect

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:57:07 No.22411542 Report

Quoted By: >>22411556 >>22411569

>>22411525
Greninja doesn't have Nasty Plot, Swords Dance combined with STAB priority to beat faster checks

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 17:59:23 No.22411550 Report

Quoted By: >>22411562 >>22411572 >>22411573

>>22411535
>We want each pokemon to have a tier were it is viable
>Banning a pokemon gives it no viable tier
>Like we care
Fuck smogon

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:00:24 No.22411556 Report

Quoted By: >>22411560 >>22411618

>>22411542
Greninja doesn't need to boost, Protean gives it a functional Choice Specs on every attack without being locked into a move, and that's before factoring in Life Orb.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:01:39 No.22411560 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411556
First off its not a functional choice specs because pokemon get stab on top of choice specs. And yeah it does get life orb boost, but it's got crappy attack stats. Even after life orb boosting they aren't impressive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:01:50 No.22411562 Report

Quoted By: >>22412269

>>22411550
In such situations, it's either let it stay and shit up OU for all of the Pokémon in there or send it away to be ignored.
This, however, is not one of those situations, as Greninja is plenty good in Ubers as a Spikes lead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:03:31 No.22411569 Report

Quoted By: >>22411588 >>22411618

>>22411542
Greninja doesn't need that. With Protean, Greninja's special attacks are already as powerful as Deoxys-A's special attacks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:03:50 No.22411572 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411550
there is a difference between being viable and ban-worthy

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:03:53 No.22411573 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411550
ubers only recently became a teir list
it was a ban list before it was an unofficial teir all these years until a month ago

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:06:50 No.22411588 Report

Quoted By: >>22411629

>>22411569
i thought you were just being over dramatic
but i did calcs there exactly the same damage wise

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:13:18 No.22411618 Report

Quoted By: >>22411625 >>22411651

>>22411556
>>22411569
the point is Mega Lucario is a bad comparison because being able to set up and use strong priority moves was mainly what made it broken

>as powerful as Deoxys-A's special attacks
what a dumb way to exaggerate how strong a Pokemon is, Greninja sure has that 180 base special attack Psycho Boost

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:15:27 No.22411625 Report

Quoted By: >>22411644

>>22411618
I think he is referring to SPATK stat

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:16:03 No.22411629 Report

Quoted By: >>22411635

>>22411588

A starter turned out to be a bulkier Deoxys A

Power Creep is real

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:17:09 No.22411635 Report

Quoted By: >>22411721

>>22411629
Blame a stupid ability, retard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:19:15 No.22411644 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411625
The stat is still lower, and regardless Doexy also gets stab on certain moves. Acting like its just as strong because it gets stab on all moves is ignoring the fact that other pokemon do have stab attacks. And in the case of Deoxy its ignoring its attacks which are just more powerful than Greninja's.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:21:35 No.22411651 Report

Quoted By: >>22411687

>>22411618
>what a dumb way to exaggerate how strong a Pokemon is
agreed. its special attack was never a problem in XY and isn't now, it's the versatility and ability to shit on any counters it had in xy with move tutor attacks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:24:59 No.22411672 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407550
So what happens when the % goes over 50? Fucking simpleton.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:27:56 No.22411687 Report

Quoted By: >>22411693

>>22411651
It doesn't shit on just about any counter. You need to run mixed attacker, or physical to counter the counters it had in XY. Which makes it even easier to deal with.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:28:42 No.22411693 Report

Quoted By: >>22411697

>>22411687
>You need to run mixed attacker
which is the best set anyway

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:29:49 No.22411696 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407312
>starmie is OU again by usage

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:30:03 No.22411697 Report

Quoted By: >>22411709 >>22411711

>>22411693
Not really.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:31:23 No.22411709 Report

Quoted By: >>22411717

>>22411697
yes it is

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:32:13 No.22411711 Report

Quoted By: >>22411717

>>22411697
lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:33:22 No.22411714 Report

Quoted By: >>22411719 >>22411726 >>22411746

So why do the Pro-Ban side in the Greninja Suspect Test makes valid points and the Anti-ban side don't?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:34:15 No.22411717 Report

Quoted By: >>22411723 >>22411730 >>22411754

>>22411709
>>22411711
Too slow if you invest in both attack stats. Too weak of physical attack otherwise.

>0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 265-312 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at that getting walled by Blissey. Gunk shot doesn't do any better either.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:34:39 No.22411719 Report

Quoted By: >>22411746 >>22411754

>>22411714
Because the only argument they have is that Greninja is their bro and they don't want it banned. They literally have no other argument.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:35:23 No.22411721 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411635

Its easier to blame Gamefreak

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:35:40 No.22411723 Report

Quoted By: >>22411763

>>22411717
>-Atk nature on a mixed attacker
>0 evs in attack suggests a retarded 252/252/4 spread
>doesn't consider calcs with pebbles

simply epic

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:36:00 No.22411726 Report

Quoted By: >>22411736 >>22411765

>>22411714
Both sides have arguments, but it seems its really a difference of opinion with what it comes down to. Both sides have arguments, your side just ignores all arguments from the other side, and you are obviously bias.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:36:35 No.22411730 Report

Quoted By: >>22411763

>>22411717
>>>>>>>>>0- atk

Mixed Greninja runs 40 Atk Naive

It beats Sylveon, Azumarill and Clefable who could all counter it in XY, with Gunk Shot, which is fucking huge for it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:38:02 No.22411736 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411726
But the Pro-Ban side actually makes a point. With it gone, more Pokemon can see usage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:39:20 No.22411746 Report

Quoted By: >>22411757

>>22411714
>>22411719
Get over yourselves, Greninja's decision comes down to philosophical things like how important defensive counters actually are anymore, there's no right or wrong

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:40:46 No.22411754 Report

Quoted By: >>22411776 >>22411796

>>22411717
>Too slow if you invest in both attack stats. Too weak of physical attack otherwise.
You invest fully into SPE and put 40 into ATK and the rest into SPA.
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 195-229 (55.5 - 65.2%) Guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 406-478 (102 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 432-510 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Every other set is 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 328-385 (83.2 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Of course, you're probably b8ing.

>>22411719
Don't forget
>Muh Frail
>Muh 4MSS
>Git gud

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:41:36 No.22411757 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411746
Exactly what I've said. I've asked these people why you need a counter that can take all of its sets. They don't really give a good answer in response. Because there isn't one. Some people think you need to be able to counter every you can come across. I don't.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:41:51 No.22411763 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411723
>>22411730
>40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 307-361 (47 - 55.3%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 307-361 (47 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
There, much better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:42:31 No.22411765 Report

Quoted By: >>22411776

>>22411726
So what logical arguments do the Anti-Ban side have then?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:44:34 No.22411776 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411765
see >>22411754

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:48:11 No.22411796 Report

Quoted By: >>22411836

>>22411754
Yeah and you can run different sets which can counter those sets. Considering your locked into two moves to stop its XY sets. Greninja doesn't have 10 moves. Its XY sets can be counter, but so cant he new mixed sets. You just can't use the same exact counters for all of its sets. Yeah nothing does counter every single set it uses, but each set has checks and counters of its own. Which I think is good enough. You have to be able to predict with some degree what set they are running. Which can be difficult, but once you do that its typically not that hard to beat.

And while you people won't even really consider this. Gunk Shot misses 1/5 shots on average. Its far from perfect.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:52:25 No.22411811 Report

Quoted By:

>>22408845
Most players who advocate for Greninja's ban used it extensively before the suspect test, I don't think you understand what "scrub" means in this context

Smogon's rules are far from unwritten, they're not "soft bans" that bad players arbitrarily create and expect others to follow, they are hard bans that all players respect.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:53:07 No.22411814 Report

Quoted By: >>22411817 >>22411827 >>22411830

>>22410191
>Numel

Why is he so high?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:53:10 No.22411815 Report

Quoted By: >>22411823 >>22411824 >>22411845 >>22411859 >>22414381

Except for the fact that the Greninja ban is quite literally a case of "can't git gud against Greninja".

You need to understand that Greninja is one of the most skill-intensive pokemon to ever exist. To explain, Greninja requires skill from both his player and the opponent. The player must git gud at prediction, and the opponent must git gud at understanding what sort of moveset the Greninja is going to run and thus run the appropriate check/counter.

If the Greninja player has a team weak to psychic type pokemon? Greninja is going to pack Dark Pulse. If the Greninja player has a team weak to fighting type pokemon and/or Mega Venusaur? Greninja is going to pack Extrasensory. If the Greninja player has a team weak to wall blobs like Clefable and Sylveon? Greninja is going to run Gunk Shot.

That's why Greninja is competitively one of the most awesome pokemon to ever exist. Unlike literally every pokemon that exists, Greninja requires, without a single exception, 100% skill from both the player and the opponent. That's exactly the only reason why Smogon is banning Greninja, because they can't git gud against Greninja.

And now you understand why Smogon are just a bunch of scrubs who bans what they can't beat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:53:29 No.22411817 Report

Quoted By: >>22411847

>>22411814
counters ebin keys

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:54:55 No.22411823 Report

Quoted By: >>22411848

>>22411815
>most awesome Pokemon to ever exist
Kill yourself, Grenigger. No one gives a shit for your bro and I'm happy OU is going to be purged of it's cancer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:54:56 No.22411824 Report

Quoted By: >>22411833 >>22411845

>>22411815
Nice pasta.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:55:03 No.22411827 Report

Quoted By: >>22411847 >>22411881

>>22411814
Counters SwagPlay outside of HP Water keys

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:55:38 No.22411830 Report

Quoted By: >>22411847

>>22411814
Klefki counter. Immune to twave and confusion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:56:06 No.22411833 Report

Quoted By: >>22411845

>>22411824
Nice retort

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:56:26 No.22411836 Report

Quoted By: >>22411846

>>22411796
>Yeah and you can run different sets which can counter those sets
Give us examples pls.
>Considering your locked into two moves to stop its XY sets.
What does this mean?
>Greninja doesn't have 10 moves.
We never said it did.
>Its XY sets can be counter, but so cant he new mixed sets.
Do you know what Counter means? Cause I don't think you do
>You just can't use the same exact counters for all of its sets.
Because Greninja don't have a consistent counter for all of its sets unlike most Pokemon.
>Yeah nothing does counter every single set it uses, but each set has checks and counters of its own
Because Greninja's moveset reflects on his team. What they can't get, He will and vice versa.
>You have to be able to predict with some degree what set they are running. Which can be difficult, but once you do that its typically not that hard to beat.
And after you're done predicting his moveset, half your team is close to KO and ripe for sweeping.

>And while you people won't even really consider this. Gunk Shot misses 1/5 shots on average. Its far from perfect.
Which means it hits 4/5 of the time.
That's a 110 BP move coming off of STAB and LO on a Fairy Pokemon. Shit hurts

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:56:28 No.22411837 Report

Quoted By: >>22411850 >>22411852 >>22411858

>>22407312
I'm a scrub when it comes to competitive pokemon. Can someone explain me the difference between a check and a counter?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:58:38 No.22411845 Report

Quoted By: >>22414381

>>22411815
>>22411824
>>22411833
It's a pasta, and I saw it at least once before, but it does speak the truth. I guess it just seems easy to copypaste for these threads.

Scouting and using your brain sound like terms that Smogon has already forgotten, but then again, most top Smogon players are mediocre at best, as seen as how someone like Chimpact can have success, when you could watch a video of him from like 6 months ago and he'd be making ShadyPenguin-tier plays, while some others don't even play the game, like Alexwolf or Haunter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:58:41 No.22411846 Report

Quoted By: >>22411870

>>22411836
Oh of course the old it doesn't have any actual counter argument. Because smogon uses some arbitrary term to refer to counters. That isn't fitting with actual definition of the word. Look there may not be any 100% guaranteed to win counters. But it has plenty of checks. And checks are usually ran over counters anyways. As its incredible hard to have counters for everything. Not so hard to have checks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:58:49 No.22411847 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411817
>>22411827
>>22411830
Well shit. Sounds like it'd be fun to try out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:58:49 No.22411848 Report

Quoted By: >>22411856

>>22411823
Anti-greninjafags are worse than greninjafags, just letting you know.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:59:01 No.22411850 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411837
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
Here you go.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 18:59:14 No.22411852 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411837
A check can beat pokemon X if they switch in whether it's a double switch, voltturn, sac

A counter can switch into pokemon X's most powerful move with hazards up and OHKO it/force it out

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:00:36 No.22411856 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411848
And Greninjafags are cancer, just letting you know.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:00:53 No.22411858 Report

Quoted By: >>22414072

>>22411837
Terminology that should be irrelevant in 2015, you either beat a Pokemon or you don't

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:01:05 No.22411859 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411815
>That's why Greninja is competitively one of the most awesome pokemon to ever exist
stop taking your post seriously there

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:02:32 No.22411870 Report

Quoted By: >>22411876

>>22411846
Everyone knows what Counter means in the context of Pokemon. So it isn't hard to get lost in it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:03:50 No.22411876 Report

Quoted By: >>22411887

>>22411870
It's not what the term means in general, and its not intuitive if you haven't seen people using it with regards to pokemon before. And it's irrelevant as no one really runs counters they run checks. You don't even really need counters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:04:14 No.22411881 Report

Quoted By: >>22411886 >>22411888 >>22411889 >>22411898 >>22411914

>>22411827
>HP Water Keys
How the fuck is Numel that much of a threat to warrant HP Water of all things Jesus fucking Christ

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:05:21 No.22411886 Report

Quoted By: >>22411913

>>22411881
Again, immune to t-wave and wager.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:05:36 No.22411887 Report

Quoted By: >>22411910

>>22411876
>And it's irrelevant as no one really runs counters they run checks. You don't even really need counters.
I don't think you play Pokemon if you believe this. I will stop taking you seriously.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:05:46 No.22411888 Report

Quoted By: >>22411913

>>22411881
if you run a team of 6 ebin keys you have to have a numel counter

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:05:49 No.22411889 Report

Quoted By: >>22411913

>>22411881
You can afford to run at least one HP Water on six keys teams.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:06:47 No.22411898 Report

Quoted By: >>22411913

>>22411881
If you have 6 Keys, you can find the moveslot

Aswell as Flash cannon, foul play, play rough etc

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:07:38 No.22411910 Report

Quoted By: >>22411923

>>22411887
OU is a game of checks. How many pokemon do you run in OU just because they are hard counters? Not many. You certainly can't have counters to every pokemon you come up against on one team can you? You run checks. You get good at predictions. You don't try and have counters for everything because you can't.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:08:07 No.22411913 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411886
I know
>>22411888
>>22411889
>>22411898
I forgot AG hasn't even got species clause

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:08:14 No.22411914 Report

Quoted By: >>22411938 >>22412003

>>22411881
It doesn't show up on as one of the most common moves for AG Klefki at any Rating, though.
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-12/moveset/
It's probably only used on Klefki-only teams.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:09:45 No.22411923 Report

Quoted By: >>22411937

>>22411910
You can have a team that can check and counter certain amount of Pokemon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:12:03 No.22411937 Report

Quoted By: >>22411954

>>22411923
And all Greninja sets have checks. You can't counter every pokemon. So why is it a problem when you don't have a counter to one pokemon? If you instantly lose because you don't have a counter you really do need to git gud. You can check greninja in all forms. And he is very frail. You don't need a counter to be able to beat it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:12:04 No.22411938 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411914
you have to consider that most AG players are absolute shitters, so it's not surprising they would be paranoid enough of 6keys to add numel

and at 1% usage it would be wise to add hp water on at least one key, you don't want any guaranteed losses

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:15:21 No.22411954 Report

Quoted By: >>22411977 >>22412008

>>22411937
>And all Greninja sets have checks.
True. But most of them are shitmons to begin with
>So why is it a problem when you don't have a counter to one pokemon?
Because this one Pokemon shits on certain kinds of team archetypes and overcentralized the metagame in its favor.
> And he is very frail. You don't need a counter to be able to beat it.
Frail can never be used as an argument cause this implies that Deoxys ANS are legal and safe in OU

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:20:22 No.22411977 Report

Quoted By: >>22412054 >>22412063

>>22411954
>Frail can never be used as an argument cause this implies that Deoxys ANS are legal and safe in OU
It implies no such thing. Frail implies what the word implies. If you get a good hit on it, it can't really take it. Doesn't mean it isn't powerful. It means that when you do have something that can hit it, it can hit it hard and likely kill it. Which is the case here. Which is why Greninja is weak to choice scarf. But people don't like to run choice scarf. Even if it can stop greninja from wreaking havoc on their team.

I mean greninja pretty much always runs life orb. Never Choice Scarf. You run that and you take away its speed. Then you have a weak pokemon that hits hard. This is why it matters that its frail. Because if it wasn't then choice scarf wouldn't work so well against it necessarily.

>True. But most of them are shitmons to begin with
Not all of them are.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:23:25 No.22412003 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:23:25 No.22412004 Report

Quoted By: >>22412073 >>22412092

Besides Starmie, are there any other Pokemon going to benefit from the ban?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:23:30 No.22412008 Report

Quoted By: >>22412027 >>22412075 >>22412115

>>22411954
>Deoxys comparison again
stop

being frail is certainly an argument as long as you don't have base 180 in both attacks and 150 speed

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:25:18 No.22412027 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412008
AND Extremespeed on top of that

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:27:35 No.22412047 Report

Quoted By: >>22412060

>>22409939
>>22410196
>OU-capable mons shut down by the tier's threats and too strong for UU
>Muh bro Staraptor
>Has weaker-but-not-that-weak-Garchomp in there
I would play the fuck out of BL if it became a real tier, just get some walls in there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:28:26 No.22412054 Report

Quoted By: >>22412094

>>22411977
Because who will leave their Greninja on a Scarfer when they can switch out? The only way for your Scarfer to come in cleanly is after you sac a Pokemon and by that time, Greninja already done its job for the opponent.

Greninja don't care for its frailness because it's so damn fast It can leave a mark on the Pokemon before it gets hit. And people can smell a Scarfer miles away anyway.

So Greninja is weak to Scarf, do you want every team to carry a scarfer JUST for Greninja? No right? cause that's overcentralization and we don't want that.

And yes, they are maybe 1 or 2 Pokemon that checks Greninja that isn't shitmons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:29:29 No.22412060 Report

Quoted By: >>22412083

>>22412047
BL shouldnt be a thing and just let them be in the teir above them its the only teir you can use them in anyway

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:29:40 No.22412063 Report

Quoted By: >>22412094

>>22411977
>deoxys is just a weak pokemon that hits hard since it always runs LO or sash
>just use a scarfer
>people just don't like to do that

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:31:28 No.22412073 Report

Quoted By: >>22412092 >>22412096

>>22412004
is there a reason why people want starmie out of UU

if its in UU you can use it in 3 teirs but if it goes to OU
its good in UU and OU why not just keep it there

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:31:39 No.22412075 Report

Quoted By: >>22412113

>>22412008
With Protean and LO, Greninja hits harder than Deo-A in certain cases and just as hard as it as well.

And in OU, Greninja is among the fastest Pokemon barring Scarfers and Megas.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:32:26 No.22412083 Report

Quoted By: >>22412119

>>22412060
that goes against the entire point of BL - it's a banlist for UU, meaning those pokemon would normally be in UU but are too good

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:33:27 No.22412092 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412004
lando-t (^:

>>22412073
muh all 6 gens

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:33:52 No.22412094 Report

Quoted By: >>22412139

>>22412054
Scarfer help with more than just greninja. You aren't running it just for him. And no I doubt mind if every team runs one. And you can just switch out when the greninja switches in. Or if it can't get a one hit kill on you. You can hit it back hard. And you can also have a dragon dance sweeper setup. With that speed boost greninja isn't going to outspeed them. Does require setup, but a lot of sweepers require setup.

>>22412063
Greninja is no where near as good as Deoxy no matter what you claim.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:34:23 No.22412096 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412073
OU and UU are based on usage. The minute Greninja gets banned, Starmie is going to see a spike in usage, so it'll be drafted into OU. The reason it was UU before was because it was a poor man's Greninja.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:36:55 No.22412113 Report

Quoted By: >>22412158

>>22412075
Weavile has a stronger Ice Punch and Knock Off than Deoxys-A, it doesn't mean shit

Greninja doesn't have 180 base Psycho Boosts, Extremespeeds and a speed tier that can beat Scarfers like Landorus and Heatran

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:37:12 No.22412115 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412008
or stab on everything rather than some pitiful psychic stab

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:38:08 No.22412119 Report

Quoted By: >>22412128

>>22412083
Just because its a banlist originally doesn't mean it can't have other uses. Ubers was a banlist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:39:37 No.22412128 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412119
yes, but why would you "merge" BL into OU? there is no purpose in doing that. you can use BL mons in OU, and BL serves a specific purpose.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:41:02 No.22412139 Report

Quoted By: >>22412175 >>22412265

>>22412094
Here's the thing. Without Greninja, You don't need a Scarfer.
With Greninja, Odds are you will need one just to stop it assuming your Greninja check is dead.

And you're assuming that the Greninja Player will just leaves him in against a Pokemon he can't beat 1v1 not to mention you thinking a Scarfer can get in damage-free barring one of your Pokemon getting sacced for it.

In other words, you're assuming the Greninja player is shit.

Also, Greninja makes Balance teams a no go so it's for the best if it leaves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:43:01 No.22412158 Report

Quoted By: >>22412208

>>22412113
But Greninja does have STAB on all of it moves and a Trollish speed tier that makes you run Scarfers and certain Megas for it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:46:07 No.22412175 Report

Quoted By: >>22412221

>>22412139
I never said the scarfer can get in damage free. you're putting words in my mouth like you have from the start. Why the fuck do you do that? It makes me not want to listen to your arguments at all.

Anyways you said odds are you'll need one assuming your check is dead. Well if your check isn't dead you can use that. If it is dead you have your scarfer. They switch you get a free hit on the new pokemon. Plus any entry hazards. Let them switch. It doesn't give them the win. And if you predict they will switch you can double switch. Entry hazards all over again sure. But you'd expect them to switch in something that could handle your scarfer. They don't know what you'll want to switch to. This gives you an edge.

And then there are also megas which are much faster as well.

It's got plenty of ways to be beat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:49:11 No.22412208 Report

Quoted By: >>22412225 >>22412245

>>22412158
It's not "trollish" it's just fast. There are plenty of pokemon that are faster. There always have been since Gen 1. It's just fast. Deoxy can outspeed pokemon that are scarfed. It still has higher attack stats. even if we boost greninjas by 50 percent. Then it gets the stab bonus on psychic moves (since we gave greninja a stat boost we don't consider stab). As well as far more powerful attacks, and things like extreme speed.

>252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-533 (158 - 186.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Faster too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:51:06 No.22412221 Report

Quoted By: >>22412270

>>22412175
And what if your check can't check Greninja?
You switch in a Tentacruel expecting a Ice beam on your Garchomp and get Extrasensory
Now Cruel can get 2HKO and is gone. Greninja did its job.

You're also implying that the scarfer will come in scotfree, unless it's come in after a sac which won't work for you.

A Greninja won't stay in on any Scarfer in the 1st place so a Scarfer can never get a hit on it in the 1st place. And there's always a chance of you getting outplayed by the person.

Greninja isn't an invincible pokemon, but the ways to deal with it pretty much means you have to make your team just to deal with it and leave it open to another Pokemon on Greninja's team.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:51:42 No.22412225 Report

Quoted By: >>22412243 >>22412292

>>22412208
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 253-298 (93.3 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Next.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:53:39 No.22412243 Report

Quoted By: >>22412251 >>22412273

>>22412225
Jolteon is faster is the point. And Gunk Shot isn't priority, and has a good chance to miss. Thunderbolt has 100% accuracy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:53:55 No.22412245 Report

Quoted By: >>22412366

>>22412208
>Jolteon relevant in OU
>Greninja staying in on a Jolteon in the 1st place/
By trollish, I mean it's in the same spot like Chomp was in Gen 4 with it outspeed the majority of Pokemon in OU barring Shitmons and Scarfers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:54:33 No.22412251 Report

Quoted By: >>22412295

>>22412243
So basically, your only hope of beating Greninja is by revenge killing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:56:04 No.22412265 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412139
>Here's the thing. Without Greninja, You don't need a Scarfer.
Yeah, it's not like the remakes brought in a fuckton of a speed creep megas that make you want to have scarfed Landorus or Latios to begin with. The Scarf usefulness will always be there, regardless of whether you want to exaggerate Greninja's importance or not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:56:31 No.22412269 Report

Quoted By: >>22415544

>>22411562
What does Greninja as a spikes lead do that Deoxys Speed or Attack can't? Greninja is terrible in Ubers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:56:49 No.22412270 Report

Quoted By: >>22412305

>>22412221
You should analyze their team, and be able to predict its set better than that. And if they use extrasensory on Garchomp expecting you'll switch. Well that's a good move on their part. It requires prediction, and its risky if you don't switch. I don't consider that a problem.

And again I never said that the scarfer will come in scottfree. Never said that once. And I mentioned Greninja switching. But I guess you ignored that point.

And no you don't have to make your team to deal with it. Have a scarfer. Git gud at making predictions. Or alternatively use a dragon dance lead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:57:49 No.22412273 Report

Quoted By: >>22412281

>>22412243
>80% percent chance to hit
>56.3% chance of Greninja OHKO Jolteon with it.
>And this is without entry hazards

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:58:50 No.22412281 Report

Quoted By: >>22412289

>>22412273
>0% chance to OHKO
Jolteon won't let it get in an attack. Thunderbolt has perfect accuracy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 19:59:52 No.22412289 Report

Quoted By: >>22412297

>>22412281
And Jolteon can't survive a switch-in. Even if it gets lucky, it KOs itself with LO recoil when Greninja switches out to something else. Your point?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:00:39 No.22412292 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412225
>4 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 320-378 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:00:55 No.22412295 Report

Quoted By: >>22412300 >>22412311 >>22412328

>>22412251
Which is what a check does. It doesn't have to be trash like Jolteon, it can be either an already mega evolved Mega, a good scarfer, fucking priority. Even if it's weaker priority, Greninja will hardly ever be at full health, so there's always that, and let alone with with hazards. Of course you can always do what Smogon does and assume the Greninja player has 6 layers of spikes, while the other dude has nothing, but let's not.

I'm saying this mostly because there was some retard saying it only had one or two checks, which is downright retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:01:23 No.22412297 Report

Quoted By: >>22412313

>>22412289
The point is just to joke around really. I never meant much by the whole jolteon thing other than to capitalize on the fact that it is no Deoxy. Like it keeps getting compared to. Deoxy can outspeed scarfed pokemon. Greninja can get outspeed by unscarfed, unboosted pokemon. The two aren't as comparable as people are trying to make them seem.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:01:47 No.22412300 Report

Quoted By: >>22412412

>>22412295
It still means that you're down by one pokemon, which puts you at a disadvantage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:02:31 No.22412305 Report

Quoted By: >>22412326

>>22412270
So basically, pray that you made the right move on the Greninja or get fucked.

And you're not making any good points at all beside muh predictions and git gud. Because that's the only thing with Greninja right?

It's not like he ruins Balance teams and is cancer to teambuilding in general.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:02:59 No.22412311 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412295
Exactly. If it's using life orb, with entry hazards, and it's already frail. Well pretty much any priority move will wreck its shit. And those are run all the fucking time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:03:27 No.22412313 Report

Quoted By: >>22412361

>>22412297
The Deoxys-A comparison was never about speed, it was about pointing out that Greninja's offensive stats aren't as shit as you people keep on insisting. It's effective 180 Sp.A on every special attack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:04:54 No.22412326 Report

Quoted By: >>22412353

>>22412305
You are doing the same thing with prediction. Why would a greninja player ever use extrasensory on Garchomp? Because they predict a switch. If you can take that into consideration than so can I. If you predict they'll use extrasensory you don't switch to Tentracruel.

And you don't have to make all the right moves against it. It's weak, uses life orb, and can be effect by all entry hazards. Just have something outspeed it and you're good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:05:36 No.22412328 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412295
Too bad none of Greninja's checks can come in and not get 2HKO by any move under its movepool.

And the Pokemon Greninja can't do anything against, it's teammates will

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Battle Stance.jpg, 127KiB, 700x965

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:07:46 No.22412351 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407576
Thanks a lot, doc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:08:05 No.22412353 Report

Quoted By: >>22412383

>>22412326
>Why would a greninja player ever use extrasensory on Garchomp? Because they predict a switch. If you can take that into consideration than so can I. If you predict they'll use extrasensory you don't switch to Tentracruel.
And then they ended up using Ice Beam and Chomp is down.
And even if your Cruel switch to a Ice Beam, Greninja can just switch out and bide its time.

>It's weak, uses life orb, and can be effect by all entry hazards. Just have something outspeed it and you're good.
You're saying this as if Greninja's main job is to sweep the 6 opposing Pokemon. It's not, It's mainly to poke holes into the opposing team and make it easier for your Pokemon to sweep.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:08:19 No.22412356 Report

Quoted By:

When will extinguish genies be a real move?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:08:46 No.22412361 Report

Quoted By: >>22412382 >>22412390

>>22412313
So it's base 180 now? Last I checked Stab is only a 50 percent boost. And it's attack stat isn't that high. It also doesn't have as powerful as attacks as Deoxy. And Deoxy still gets STAB. I've never said it wasn't strong. So don't start with that you people. I said its no where near as powerful as Deoxy when others said it was though. Which is true it isn't.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Heavy Medic.jpg, 12KiB, 237x251

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:09:40 No.22412366 Report

Quoted By: >>22412378

>>22412245
>Gen 4
>When Infernape, Azelf and Aerodactyl were fucking Sanic
Good Times

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1363495717687.gif, 196KiB, 264x269

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:16:46 No.22412378 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412366
>tfw Powercreep

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:17:44 No.22412382 Report

Quoted By: >>22412393 >>22412417

>>22412361
I believe he's talking about life orb (1.3) and STAB(1.5) giving a multiplier of 1.8 to its 103 special attack. I don't know why that didn't register to you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:17:54 No.22412383 Report

Quoted By: >>22412397 >>22412430

>>22412353
This isn't a case of you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is a case of they are going to make one choice. So they are damned if you make the right prediction. And you are damned if you don't. Its about predictions, and who can do it best. Greninja takes skill from both sides. No one has ever denied that. And yeah if you make the wrong choice you'll get boned. The same way most predictions go.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:19:04 No.22412390 Report

Quoted By: >>22412417 >>22412462

>>22412361
>252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 144-172 (42.2 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

>252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Mew's type set to normal so that the SE damage doesn't screw with the results.

Greninja's special attacks hits as hard as Deoxys-A's special attacks except for Psychic type moves, with only the tiniest changes in numbers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:20:44 No.22412393 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412382
It's actually more. Factoring both Life Orb and STAB on everything it's a 1.95 Boost in all of its offensive attacks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:20:48 No.22412397 Report

Quoted By: >>22412431

>>22412383
>Greninja takes skill from both sides.
Greninja is just "pick whatever move is supereffective" since it fucking outspeeds whatever switch-in comes into play. There's no skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:23:08 No.22412412 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412300
Which happens all the fucking time in this game. Trying to switch in your physical answer to a Gallade, in Landorus-T, and it turns out it either predicted you with Ice Punch, to 2HKO, or Swords Danced, to OHKO next turn, while you were hoping it wasn't running it to begin with.

Next turn you can just scare it out with the flying chicken, but you are already down by one Pokemon. Might as well just ban.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:23:55 No.22412417 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412382
Maybe because if we are talking about that then Deoxy can be said to have 210 and special attack essentially. And no one bringing it up has done so in that regard. They say it has 160 attack. Then people say Greninja has 180.

>>22412390
Which is why I said it also pointed out that Deoxy has access to more powerful attacks. Which it does. Also it has priority moves. With Greninja doesn't. And its attack stat is just as strong.

Greninja doesn't have anything that can equate to psycho boost or extreme speed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:25:20 No.22412430 Report

Quoted By: >>22412453

>>22412383
In the situation with Greninja vs Garchomp, Greninja will win either way with Ice beam.
Garchomp stays in?
Dead
Tentacruel comes in?
Greninja can switch out and come back later.
Meanwhile, Cruel took damage coming in and possibly entry hazards

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:25:20 No.22412431 Report

Quoted By: >>22412597

>>22412397
It doesn't always outspeed them (scarf, priority, mega evos, the few pokemon which are naturally faster). You also need to know when to switch it because of how frail it is. It really can't take any hits even with protean. It does take skill from both sides.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:27:49 No.22412453 Report

Quoted By: >>22412467

>>22412430
Then how did the greninja get in without taking damaging? It can't really switch into anything. Why do we only consider the damage the other pokemon take? If it switches and you have entry hazards then the other pokemon takes damage from that, as well as whatever Tentracruel has for it. If you know they are going to switch. Since you make it seem like they'll switch Greninja every time. You can double switch. Having an idea of what type of pokemon they're going to switch in considering that you had tentracruel out. It's not all cut and dry it takes skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:29:18 No.22412462 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412390
>a pokemon with STAB hits harder than a pokemon without STAB
simply epic

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:29:54 No.22412467 Report

Quoted By: >>22412502

>>22412453
Volt-Switch and U-turn anon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:34:19 No.22412502 Report

Quoted By: >>22412519 >>22412612

>>22412467
And it's incredible predictable. Switch in something with some good defense and don't worry about the hit. Greninja requires predictions. It requires skill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:35:43 No.22412519 Report

Quoted By: >>22412564

>>22412502
And Greninja switchs out and your Tank takes damage that will build up as the match goes on.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:39:13 No.22412564 Report

Quoted By: >>22412635

>>22412519
And the Greninja takes damage from U-turn, and entry hazards making it even more frail than it already way. Got any priority at all and he is dead. So it deals damage to one poke and then its in range for you to kill it with any and all priority.

And remember you could also use dragon dancers, and scarfers and be faster than it without priority. Stopping it from being a threat before it ever got off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:43:12 No.22412597 Report

Quoted By: >>22412627 >>22413216

>>22412431
>Scarf
The scarf users are obvious, so you switch. Whoo.
>Priority
Talonflame is the only huge threat (and maybe Bisharp? Not sure). Just switch or set up stealth rocks. Whoo.
>The few pokemon which are naturally faster
>The FEW
>You also need to know when to switch it because of how frail it is.
There's not really a situation where it can't OHKO or 2HKO something that isn't a special wall (Conk, off the top of my head?). With protean, there are some resisted hits it can take, though I will admit it can only take about one or two resisted hits before it just dies.
There's seriously not that much skill involved with greninja. Do you have a supereffective move against the pokemon in front of you? Use it. Are you going to be unable to kill? Swap and weaken/kill the pokemon, then come back out. Even if said pokemon swaps to another, it's weakened, and you start the process over again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:45:39 No.22412612 Report

Quoted By: >>22412634

>>22412502
>And it's incredible predictable. Switch in something with some good defense and don't worry about the hit.
U-turn/Volt Switch comes out after the switch, so they can just choose to go to a special attacker, for example.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:47:39 No.22412627 Report

Quoted By: >>22412675

>>22412597
>The scarf users are obvious, so you switch. Whoo.
Double switch. I've said it before. If they're going to switch every time and you know it then double switch.

>Talonflame is the only huge threat (and maybe Bisharp? Not sure). Just switch or set up stealth rocks. Whoo.
Once its taken life orb and entry hazard damage any priority hit is a threat to it.

>Even if said pokemon swaps to another, it's weakened, and you start the process over again.
except if they pack any priority you aren't expecting. Because greninja really can't handle a single priority move if you want to use him over and over again with Life Orb.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:48:40 No.22412634 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412612
And when you switch you're open to taking a hit from whatever they switched in. Then you're poking holes in their team as well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:48:42 No.22412635 Report

Quoted By: >>22412653 >>22413216 >>22416041

>>22412564
I don't think you understand here, If you have a slow Volt-turner, then Greninja will come in free and Attack whatever Pokemon is out there. It will either KO something or hurt the tank and leaves.

And It's not like you can't have a Rapid Spinner or a Defogger if you're worry about entry hazards. And you're assuming that the Greninja will stay in on any priority user barring Mach Punch if it's a type that isn't weak to Fighting.

And Dragonite and Altaria can't survive a turn setting up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:51:25 No.22412653 Report

Quoted By: >>22412695

>>22412635
>nd It's not like you can't have a Rapid Spinner or a Defogger if you're worry about entry hazards. And you're assuming that the Greninja will stay in on any priority user barring Mach Punch if it's a type that isn't weak to Fighting.
So you're switching every turn then? They can poke holes in your team if you need to that. Switch whenever they have choice scarf. Switch whenever they have priority. Switch whenever they have a mega that's faster. Well each of those times they get free hits on whatever pokemon you are switching in. They don't just get free switches.

>And Dragonite and Altaria can't survive a turn setting up.
You don't have to setup against Greninja. You just have to have it setup in general. With Dragon Dance they can outspeed it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:54:35 No.22412675 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412627
>Double switch. I've said it before. If they're going to switch every time and you know it then double switch.
>If
>and you know it

>Once its taken life orb and entry hazard damage
What has it taken life orb damage from without a result a detriment to the opponent's team? Hitting the air?

>except if they pack any priority you aren't expecting
What, like quick attack? It's well known what pokemon get what priority.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:56:22 No.22412695 Report

Quoted By: >>22412721

>>22412653
>. Well each of those times they get free hits on whatever pokemon you are switching in. They don't just get free switches.
If you swap to something that counters the pokemon that they have out, they're forced to swap as well (especially harmful for choiced users). You get a free turn as well.

>>22412653
>You just have to have it setup in general. With Dragon Dance they can outspeed it.
When that anon said that they can't survive a turn setting up, he means they can't survive against ANYONE, not just Greninja.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 20:59:40 No.22412721 Report

Quoted By: >>22412731 >>22412804 >>22412814

>>22412695
>Multiscale Dragonite can't survive setting up against anyone
>Those two are the only dragon dancers

>If you swap to something that counters the pokemon that they have out, they're forced to swap as well (especially harmful for choiced users). You get a free turn as well.

True but people have been acting like Greninja just punches holes in teams, but all the switches it requires causes holes to be put in your team as well. Making it easier for the opponent to sweep as well. It's not like you just get tons of bonuses and no downsides for using him.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:00:29 No.22412731 Report

Quoted By: >>22412743 >>22412804

>>22412721
>>22412721
>>Multiscale Dragonite can't survive setting up against anyone

>WHAT
>ARE
>STEALTH
>ROCKS

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:01:35 No.22412743 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412731
>What is defog
>What is lead pokemon (not that its the best lead but still)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:06:34 No.22412794 Report

Quoted By: >>22412826

>Lopunny mega evolves
>Lopunny used Fake Out
>Lopunny used High Jump kick
wow its fucking nothing. Greninja is trash.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:07:21 No.22412804 Report

Quoted By: >>22416280

>>22412721
>>22412731
Reminder to all that Greninja can OHKO Multiscale Dragonite with Ice Beam

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:08:06 No.22412814 Report

Quoted By: >>22412969

>>22412721
>>True but people have been acting like Greninja just punches holes in teams, but all the switches it requires causes holes to be put in your team as well.

The switches are mostly in your favor. Greninja gets kills, the opponent just gets hits.

>Making it easier for the opponent to sweep as well.
There's no sweep happening while Greninja's still in play.

>It's not like you just get tons of bonuses and no downsides for using him.
But you do. That's why he's at such a high rank in OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:09:08 No.22412826 Report

Quoted By: >>22412843

>>22412794
this is worse than "weavile used ice shard!" shitposting from m-salad mence

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:10:16 No.22412843 Report

Quoted By: >>22412851

>>22412826
Lopunny is actually good though and it wrecks greninjas shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:10:50 No.22412851 Report

Quoted By: >>22412923

>>22412843
okay but why the fuck would greninja stay in

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:14:30 No.22412923 Report

Quoted By: >>22413001

>>22412851
It doesn't. So you get in a free attack. Win win. If you expect it's just going to switch first turn you can power up punch instead. Not the best boosting move, but if you know they're gonna switch its a free hit then a boost. Make Lopunny even better. If they try and setup you can encore them. It stops sweepers, deals damage, and scares away Greninja.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:18:04 No.22412969 Report

Quoted By: >>22413090

>>22412814
>But you do. That's why he's at such a high rank in OU.
Most people suck at predicting it. If you can't predict greninja it can wreck teams. If you can it's just a good pokemon. It requires skill from both players. Particularly knowing when it is going to switch. And if you're faster than it, it can't get a free hit off the switch. So you really are the only one punching any holes in that case.

>There's no sweep happening while Greninja's still in play.
Unless you setup dragon dance. Or your sweeper knows priority moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:20:32 No.22413001 Report

Quoted By: >>22413037

>>22412923
okay and what happens when they eventually go to Talonflame or any fairy type at all
also
>>>>>encore PuP lopunny
please stop

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:22:40 No.22413037 Report

Quoted By: >>22413112

>>22413001
>It's not on smogon so its not viable
If they have one of those pokemon. But if they switch one in you can always swap. Then next time you have a chance to switch it in you can. And once it's in it's faster than Greninja.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:27:30 No.22413090 Report

Quoted By: >>22413121 >>22413123

>>22412969
>Most people suck at predicting it.
Right, and you're obviously the god of prediction, having seen every battle high up in the OU ladder, which gives you complete authority to make said statement, correct?

>If you can't predict greninja it can wreck teams.
It's not about prediction, its about its raw power and speed making prediction not that important.

>It requires skill from both players.
went over this

> Particularly knowing when it is going to switch.
went over this

> And if you're faster than it, it can't get a free hit off the switch.
>if
went over this

>Unless you setup dragon dance.
WE WENT OVER THIS HOLY SHIT

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:29:12 No.22413112 Report

Quoted By: >>22413133

>>22413037
>It's not on smogon so its not viable
no, it's just fucking retarded
>o-okay i'll fake out and then use power up punch with my other fighting STAB move to OH GOD HE WENT TO A PSYCHIC TYPE FUCK

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:29:54 No.22413121 Report

Quoted By: >>22413216 >>22413300

>>22413090
I've stop arguing with him. He's a broken record at this point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:30:09 No.22413123 Report

Quoted By: >>22413216

>>22413090
Just because you say we went over it doesn't invalidate the points. It's fast and powerful. Yeah we get it. However scarfers exists, faster pokemon exist, mega evolutions exists, dragon dance exists.

It's not just use what moves are super effective. It's knowing every set which can kill it and being able to switch each time. But if you switch into something that can counter the pokemon they have out. That is predictable in it of itself. They expect a switch, and they can double switch.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:31:10 No.22413133 Report

Quoted By: >>22413144

>>22413112
>He went with a psychic type
>Return after Power Up Punch

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:32:01 No.22413144 Report

Quoted By: >>22413167

>>22413133
>fake out
>encore
>power up punch
>high jump kick
>return
ayy lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:34:05 No.22413167 Report

Quoted By:

>>22413144
That's how people talk about Greninja. We can honestly drop Encore though. With Powerup Punch boost used on the greninja then you can two hit most things with High Jump Kick, or Return. So you don't really need to stop boosters with Encore that way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:38:22 No.22413216 Report

Quoted By: >>22413254

>>22413123
>Just because you say we went over it doesn't invalidate the points.
Yes they do because we fucking debunked all of them holy shit do you even read
>scarfers exists
>>22412597
>The scarf users are obvious, so you switch. Whoo.
>>22412597
>>The few pokemon which are naturally faster
>>The FEW

>mega evolutions exists,
what
>>22412635
>And Dragonite and Altaria can't survive a turn setting up.
(protip those are the only two that are faster than gren after a DD, as well as megazard x)

I'm seriously going to listen to >>22413121
because it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:42:04 No.22413254 Report

Quoted By:

>>22413216
>Yes they do because we fucking debunked all of them holy shit do you even read
We didn't go over them. You can just say they don't exist or they are predictable. But so are greninja's switches. And Greninja does have checks. If they are using it right away and showing off its moveset you can check it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 21:46:14 No.22413300 Report

Quoted By:

>>22413121
At least I'm not the one acting like this guy is an impossible to take down monster. When there are plenty of ways to deal with him. Choice scarf being an easy one.

>but... but choice scarf sucks
>But choice scarfers are predictable
Greninja is predictable. And Choice Scarf doesn't suck because it can easily stop shit like Greninja. And he isn't like gen IV Garchomp. Who could outspeed most things without a scarf while also being bulky. This guy can't take a hit from anything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 23:05:20 No.22414072 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411858

>M..m..muh HO!

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1408765436412.jpg, 17KiB, 189x267

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 23:16:56 No.22414202 Report

Quoted By:

>>22407482
4/10 chance for a single team to have lando.
Conversely, 6/10 chance for a single team to NOT have lando. Assume both you and your opponenents probability are independent. Multiply 6/10 (Yours) * 6/10 (Opponents) = 36/100 (Odds of neither you or opponent having tiger).
Flip it around, and you have a 64/100 chance to see a cat in every battle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 03 Jan 2015 23:33:09 No.22414381 Report

Quoted By:

>>22411815
>>22411845
Epic pasta.

I have no fucking clue why you would think set predictions and switch predictions are exclusive to Greninja. Like fuck, switch predictions, that's what singles is, THAT'S THE ENTIRE GAME. Once you get to a semi-decent level, games are usually decided (outside of some team match-up stuff like Mega Garde vs. stall) by who can pull off the better switches. Doubles has protect, singles has switching.

>skill intensive
>greninja use must git gud at prediction
>122 speed

By the way, Greninja adds to the whole team match-up thing, because basically any team that's not full on fat defensive stall or fast offense is weak to at lease one common Greninja set. Greninja 6-0's a bulky offense team: wow, 100% skill!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 01:11:38 No.22415544 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412269

Protean Taunt.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 01:35:44 No.22415763 Report

Quoted By:

>ITT

An ancient lion with clouds thread where dumbfucks discuss how a frog they've loathed and despised since day 1 shouldn't be banned because the Fuck Smogon mentality reigns as the supreme bandwagon and circlejerk the same "arguments" over and over without any actual experience to back it up

So uh, anyone else enjoy CB Landorus-T?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 02:06:52 No.22416041 Report

Quoted By:

>>22412635

What if your slow VoltTurner is something like Specs Analytic Zone, they switch in their Chansey, it takes minimal damage from the special attack, than you're gonna switch your Greninja into a Chansey with roughly 70-80% damage. You're not gonna be able to KO Chansey at that amount of HP and you're just asking to be TWaved, rendering Ninja borderline useless the rest of the match. Just saying the slow VoltTurner paired with Greninja doesn't always work if you're not facing offense. But then again one of the main points has always been that Stall has the better matchup against Greninja.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 02:26:11 No.22416280 Report

Quoted By: >>22416299

>>22412804

Not even true, I've seen this posted before. Must be one of those rumors that no one even bothers to verify.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 02:28:10 No.22416299 Report

Quoted By: >>22416917

>>22416280
Do you just want a reply or something.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 328-385 (101.5 - 119.1%)

You only avoid OHKO with a lot of bulk investment.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 03:25:21 No.22416917 Report

Quoted By: >>22416952

>>22416299

If you shave off the 40 points from SpA that's more common seeing as Greninja is run mixed lately, it already has an 81% chance to KO without a goddamn single bit of EVs invested into bulk. In other words, not guaranteed even with a 252 Att, 4 Def, 252 Spd spread. The only way it's a guarantee is if Gren is running max SpA (uncommon), and Nite isn't running any bulk at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 03:27:50 No.22416952 Report

Quoted By:

>>22416917
Well the original claim is Greninja *can* OHKO Multiscale Dragonite, not that it can do it for all spreads.

Besides, who gives a shit, it's not switching in and banded ESpeed probably OHKOs.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1417995744766.jpg, 59KiB, 492x492

Anonymous Sun 04 Jan 2015 03:36:16 No.22417048 Report

Quoted By:

>people who think Lando-T should be banned in Singles
>people who think Lando-T should be allowed in Doubles

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