/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #22892812

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Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:35:34 No.22892812 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>22892824 >>22892831 >>22892855 >>22892859 >>22892866 >>22894245 >>22894848 >>22895052 >>22895155 >>22895365

Which game is the most difficult to master, chess or competitive Pokémon?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:38:11 No.22892824 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892812
Chess
Pokemon isn't hard when you have lando-t on your team :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:38:54 No.22892827 Report

Quoted By:

>pokemon
>difficult to master

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:39:21 No.22892831 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892812
They both have a great variety of different strategies and the only way to win is to follow some play patterns and try to counter the opponent's strategy, I just can't give a clear answer to that.

Guess Pokémon is more varied than chess though

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:44:53 No.22892855 Report

Quoted By: >>22892873

>>22892812
Chess does not involve luck at high levels.
No matter how high you go in Pokemon competitive, luck will be present.
While you can minimize luck, you cannot remove it entirely.

As such, Pokemon is more difficult to master. Possiby to the point of impossible.

Now the question is why'd you DO that, but hey.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:46:04 No.22892859 Report

Quoted By: >>22892890 >>22893136

>>22892812
So taking Gen 6 pokemon into account, what's the best chess set we can make using pokemon as figurines?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:47:05 No.22892866 Report

Quoted By: >>22892886 >>22894322

>>22892812
>Pokemon
>go to Smogon
>find a team a skilled player uses
>inject
>???
>win

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:47:52 No.22892873 Report

Quoted By: >>22892909 >>22892914

>>22892855
Pokèmon IS impossibile to master, there is no such a thing as a flawless team or strategy, especially when it comes to critical hits and Paralysis/Sleep/Freeze/Confusion etc. RNG

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:48:28 No.22892886 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892866
That's probably what every competitivefag does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:48:53 No.22892890 Report

Quoted By: >>22893333

>>22892859
It should go by typing. A fire set would have charizard as king and chandelure as queen for example.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:50:10 No.22892900 Report

Quoted By: >>22894290

>tfw rated 1846 in chess and 1183 on Showdown

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:51:15 No.22892909 Report

Quoted By: >>22893050

>>22892873
There is no such thing as a flawless strategy in chess either. The thing is that pokemon has many more factors: matchup, teambuilding and mostly luck, which probably makes mons more difficult to master. Chess is the way better game though because competition in it makes more sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:51:46 No.22892914 Report

Quoted By: >>22892922

>>22892873
However, in chess there is no RNG, except of human error due to the higher amounts of possible moves

Overall I can say Chess takes more Real-time strategy skills while Pokémon is more about planning(Held items, abilities, EVs spreads etc.)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:53:12 No.22892922 Report

Quoted By: >>22892945

>>22892914
Chess is much more about planning than Pokémon, both while playing and while preparing for the game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:55:15 No.22892931 Report

Quoted By:

There are a limited number of possibilities in chess, the positions of the pieces and how they move is set in stone. pokemon has a lot of mechanics based purely on luck. You could say pokemon is impossible to master because of this randomness

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 16:58:07 No.22892945 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892922
What I was trying to point out is that you can't really dynamically change your play in Pokémon during a battle the same way you can do in chess

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:02:06 No.22892972 Report

Quoted By:

Chess is more simplistic, yet more complex due to centuries of strategy development.

Pokémon has more variety, but a more simplistic strategy structure because only a minority percentage of the total number of monsters are viable.

In my opinion, chess is more difficult to master because a veteran who knows what they're doing can wipe the floor with you almost guaranteed because they can predict almost the entire game. Pokémon is easier to pick up on and as others have said, luck can swing in your favor at any turn.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:13:26 No.22893050 Report

Quoted By: >>22893076 >>22893168

>>22892909
>Chess is the way better game though
Nah, Chess is overrated, you have no identity as a player and it all depends on memorizing patterns.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO petrosian_tal_karpov_75.jpg, 60KiB, 960x611

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:16:59 No.22893076 Report

Quoted By: >>22893086

>>22893050
>you have no identity as a player
I enjoy both games, but Pokémon is not in the same league as chess.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:18:51 No.22893086 Report

Quoted By: >>22893098

>>22893076
But it's true, every chess player ever will only use the white pieces or the black pieces.

In pokemon, your team can say something about you, like the guy winning with Pachirisu for example, you dont have that in chess. It's way more fun.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:21:45 No.22893098 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893086
>you don't have that in chess
Tell that to Baadur Jobava.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:31:11 No.22893136 Report

Quoted By: >>22893333

>>22892859
Pawnard and Bisharp, Nidoking/Queen, Jellicent M/F

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:34:43 No.22893151 Report

Quoted By: >>22893222

You can never master pokemon because it's impossible to make a team to handle every mon, and you can't forget about hax.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:38:01 No.22893168 Report

Quoted By: >>22893181

>>22893050
This only really applies at high-levels though.

I enjoy playing chess and have had some modest success in regional tournaments and whatnot, and I don't really do much pattern memorization.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:40:56 No.22893181 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893168
What is your rating?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:46:46 No.22893222 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893151
You can "hax" in chess too, at least on a virtual board.

Taking hax in account on a competitive debate seems kinda a dick move if you ask, but I agree with the rest

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:49:23 No.22893241 Report

Quoted By: >>22893267

pokemon is a game a few complex....the chess instead are so difficult that you can not predict the moves, and the few times that you expect your opponent always try to send them to shit forecasts

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:52:14 No.22893267 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893241
>the chess instead are so difficult that you can not predict the moves

You can predict a whole chess game, you can't do the same with Pokémon though. Not only because of the RNG

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 17:56:37 No.22893294 Report

Quoted By:

no I do not think so.....pokemon is shit compared CHESS.....I Said a chess player

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 18:00:56 No.22893314 Report

Quoted By:

sucks my dick!?!??!?!?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 18:03:20 No.22893324 Report

Quoted By:

what the fuck?!?!

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1346814167291.png, 107KiB, 252x380

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 18:05:08 No.22893333 Report

Quoted By: >>22893341 >>22893343 >>22894134

>>22892890
>>22893136

>King
>Poor fighting capability, but the lynchpin of the team
>"Charizard and Nidoking!"

The king is obviously the Pokemon Trainer, anons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 18:06:48 No.22893341 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893333
Quads confirm.
However, the king is an important piece to use in the endgame, stronger than a knight or bishop and almost as strong as a rook.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 18:07:33 No.22893343 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893333
So, the game would be about trapping the opposing trainer with my Pokémon army?
Kinda how I imagine a "true" war in the Pokéverse

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 19:06:54 No.22893738 Report

Quoted By:

OUT OF SHIT

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:05:33 No.22894134 Report

Quoted By:

>>22893333
The trainer is the guy who moves the chess pieces
the Chesser :^D

Team Flare Boss Lysandre !2DrkZFLarE

Team Flare Boss Lysandre !2DrkZFLarE Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:12:31 No.22894209 Report

Quoted By:

They're both hard. But to me, all of the things are hard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:16:23 No.22894245 Report

Quoted By: >>22894304

>>22892812
How can you play chess with 6 pieces?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:21:35 No.22894290 Report

Quoted By: >>22894345

>>22892900
jesus Christ sub 1200 is shit

I fucking laddered to 1700 with the copy paste baton pass team with stored power espeon

literally saw it coming from a mile away every match
how could your ranking be so shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:22:56 No.22894304 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894245
Very carefully

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:23:40 No.22894313 Report

Quoted By:

Chess has a massive skill cap. It takes years of dedication to get to Grandmaster level, unless you're just a prodigy.

In pokemon, a very large portion of being able to win is using a good team. Almost everyone who's stuck in ELO hell are there just because they're using shitty sets or shitty pokemon, anyone can get to at least the mid-ladder if they're given a great team (if they can't they're probably just underage or literally retarded).

After that, it's just really basic things like "X can check Y, what a revelation!"

The difference between a good pokemon player and a great one is really just being able to make risky plays. i.e. double switching. Also, being able to think ahead i.e. "I need to preserve A or else the opponent's B sweeps my team."

And great players can lose from hax and/or getting counterteamed by a moderately good player.

In Pokemon you're only ever going to have 9 moves available (in doubles I guess you can say it's 8^2 but most options are nonsensical anyway). The options go down as your pokemon faint. In chess there's going to be an average of 30 moves per board configuration.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:25:18 No.22894322 Report

Quoted By: >>22894401

>>22892866
>chess
>download a chess game
>set difficulty level to max
>play whatever move my opponent does
>use the AI's moves against my opponent
>?????
>win

I don't understand how anyone can take chess seriously when even the worst player can just do whatever the AI tells him to do and win.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:27:44 No.22894345 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894290
My team is Sandslash, Ninetales, Exeggutor, Cloyster, Alakazam and Jolteon, and I don't play very often.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:34:21 No.22894401 Report

Quoted By: >>22894445

>>22894322
Using someone's team isn't the same as blatant cheating.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:39:09 No.22894445 Report

Quoted By: >>22894507

>>22894401
How is it cheating? Do you know how the top chess players play? They don't think of their own moves on the spot. They memorize tables of optimal moves for every board position which are calculated by an AI.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:48:23 No.22894507 Report

Quoted By: >>22894523

>>22894445
Using a computer program to substitute your own moves is like using an aimbot. All the good online chess programs have methods to detect if someone is using an AI.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:50:51 No.22894523 Report

Quoted By: >>22894565

>>22894507
>what is using another computer

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:57:21 No.22894565 Report

Quoted By: >>22894571

>>22894523
They compare your moves to their own chess programs, if your moves are consistently the same you can get caught.

And no it's not "you're playing too well, you're banned now," seeing as any decent chess program plays better than most Grandmasters. The anti-cheat simply catches people who are impossibly good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 20:58:32 No.22894571 Report

Quoted By: >>22894600 >>22894611

>>22894565
See, this is why no one can take chess seriously.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:02:54 No.22894600 Report

Quoted By: >>22894607

>>22894571
It's not like you can use a computer at actual, physical tournaments. You can totally use someone else's pokemon team at a VGC match though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:04:00 No.22894607 Report

Quoted By: >>22894642 >>22894674

>>22894600
You can memorize the move tables that the computer spits out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:04:48 No.22894611 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894571
If you're in world class or beyond it's a good reason to be suspecious. Especially if you have no real life scores to reference to.

Besides, the best arenas for pro chess players are real life tournies after all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:07:31 No.22894642 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894607
>you can just memorize countless move tables
>this is the same as literally using a chess program to win
Okay mate

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:11:10 No.22894674 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894607
Yes, that true. But that's a lot of work and really what chess is about; memorizing the best strategies, like any strategy game. It's not like every scenario is the same, so you're going to actually know the computer's intentions when the opponent does an unexpected move. The top players know how to catch the opponent off guard and that's where the true strength of the game is. You can become really good by just learning strategies, but never great.
That's basically what top tier chess is about, the first one to fuck up is at an disadvantage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:11:59 No.22894682 Report

Quoted By: >>22894694 >>22894755

>Pokemon
>competitive
>when RNG exists

It wouldn't be as difficult as chess even without RNG anyway because you've only got 6 Pokemon and 4 moves on each to go for, as opposed to 16 figures and shitton of positions you can move to. The factor of opponent's sets you don't know and need for predicting/scouting for them fills some of that enormous gap, but only a little. I guess a computing algorithm could easily solve a single game with assumed opponent's sets, or hell, even predict those sets on the fly based on team composition.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:13:20 No.22894694 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894682
Pokémon is much closer to poker than chess, really.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:15:53 No.22894708 Report

Quoted By: >>22894727 >>22894755

>implying a computer wouldn't beat everyone in pokemon when given an actual AI

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:18:54 No.22894727 Report

Quoted By: >>22894804

>>22894708
Someone who plays flawlessly could probably still lose to hax or just team match-up

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:19:27 No.22894730 Report

Quoted By:

Pokemon's skill ceiling is incredibly low. You get to a certain point and it is just about predictions- which at the highest level is just rolling loaded die. Chess requires the brightest minds in the world. Pokemon requires Shofu.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:23:20 No.22894755 Report

Quoted By: >>22894787 >>22894958

>>22894682
>>22894708
Someone on Smogon actually made a program in Gen 4 that could compete with the best in the world. Since there was no team preview, it even tried to guess team compositions. It couldn't make its own teams, but someone else was working on it. And if their was more interest in it, someone would have made one by now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:27:57 No.22894787 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894755
I'm pretty sure any novice programmer could make a bot for a Baton Pass team

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:30:15 No.22894804 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894727
Yeah, it would be the same as poker bots. Sure they might lose, but in the long run they will always have the best score. It's just how a competent AI with a game of probability works.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:34:32 No.22894848 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892812
>.......\...../
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Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:43:24 No.22894958 Report

Quoted By:

>>22894755
>Smogon in charge of programming
You know it's shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:53:18 No.22895033 Report

Quoted By:

I loled at anyone ITT counting the amount of theoretical move options when they mean jack shit. In fact, I don't think there's a definite answer to OP's question as long as no one puts any real effort into analyzing Pokémon as a game. And since there's really no money to gain from analyzing Pokémon, no one might ever seriously do that.

I think the overall picture goes kinda like this: Pokémon is theoretically much more complicated, but it allows for very good heuristics that suffice for top tier play, i.e. very basic strategies have roughly the same fitness as very advanced ones. So it comes down to what you understand as "to master a game". But if you want to beat the world's best players, it should be no question that Pokémon is ridiculously easy compared to chess.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 21:55:35 No.22895052 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892812
chess. This a stupid fucking question.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:04:55 No.22895119 Report

Quoted By:

One thing I think is worth mentioning is that an AI designed for pokémon would be extremely little luck-based. Since the RNG isn't truly random it wouldn't be impossible for the AI to exploit it to its favor.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Smogon Chess.png, 34KiB, 600x600

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:11:14 No.22895155 Report

Quoted By: >>22895165 >>22895248 >>22895258

>>22892812
Pic very related

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:13:13 No.22895165 Report

Quoted By:

>>22895155
ebin

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:23:57 No.22895248 Report

Quoted By:

>>22895155
Kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:25:21 No.22895258 Report

Quoted By: >>22895265 >>22895333

>>22895155
Help me, I don't get it. I guess they banned the horses for being too versatile, and the queen being downright OP. But why only two pheasants, especially since Smogon is generally in favor for larger teams.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:27:14 No.22895265 Report

Quoted By:

>>22895258
Underage pls go

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:36:53 No.22895333 Report

Quoted By:

>>22895258

>pheasants

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 24 Feb 2015 22:40:35 No.22895365 Report

Quoted By:

>>22892812
>"Which game is most difficult to master, a game that requires pure thinking and the results are based on sole skill like chess, or pure fucking luck like Pokemon"
Gee, OP, you tell me.

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