/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #23259476

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Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:46:25 No.23259476 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>23259481 >>23259543 >>23259586 >>23259748 >>23263295 >>23263493 >>23263497 >>23263634 >>23265487

So, /vp/, how would you go about fixing sneaky pebbles?
>entry hazards fade after some time
>more types variants of SR that don't stack, so teams have to choose and fire/flying/ice aren't singled out
>more rapid spin type moves with wider distribution
>pokemon that resist SR (like steel, ground) remove them, like poison with toxic spikes
>your own ideas?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:47:13 No.23259479 Report

Quoted By:

Single use.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:47:31 No.23259481 Report

Quoted By: >>23259495

>>23259476
>sneaky pebbles
You mean Stealth Rock?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:49:38 No.23259495 Report

Quoted By: >>23265493

>>23259481
No, he means Stone Edge.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:50:00 No.23259498 Report

Quoted By:

Remove them from the game. They're flawed on an entirely conceptual level because they make some types inherently worse as a defensive type even if said type is an important defensive type otherwise. Fire and flying have important combinations of resistances they're unable to utilize effectively because of rock, making the types they resist stronger offensively indirectly.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:51:50 No.23259510 Report

Quoted By: >>23259588 >>23262008

Flat 12.5% damage, no more or less.

Bam, fixed

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 03:58:54 No.23259543 Report

Quoted By: >>23259843

>>23259476
>Sending out a rock type absorbs the rocks just the same as Toxic spikes.

Its that fucking simple

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 04:06:46 No.23259586 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259476
All of them, op. You nailed it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 04:07:46 No.23259588 Report

Quoted By: >>23262008

>>23259510
this

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 04:48:31 No.23259748 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259476
Just make it deal typeless damage in layers. 1 layer = 1/8, 2 layers = 1/4.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 05:04:54 No.23259820 Report

Quoted By: >>23259892

Too many Pokemon had it in the first place. Rock type sucks, suddenly it gets a good move and... everyone else can use it.

In the next game make it so whatever the new regions mark is (like the Kalos mark) won't appear on Pokemon that are bred from other region parents. Then don't have it as a TM, move tutor move or egg move. Naturally, competitions will only allow Pokemon with the mark.

That way only Pokemon that learn via level up (Gigalith, Steelix, Golem, Crustle, Carbink and Tyrantrum) can ever learn it. Problem solved.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 05:09:34 No.23259843 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259543
>More Tyranitars
I'm tired of TTar

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 05:14:59 No.23259892 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259820
But in 3v3 singles and double, the formats used by GF, SR isn't a problem. Only in Smogon 6v6 is it a problem and they ignore the p entagon

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 06:39:12 No.23260290 Report

Quoted By:

Stealth Rock breaks after dealing X amount of damage.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO HNI_0064.jpg, 54KiB, 320x240

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 06:47:35 No.23260320 Report

Quoted By:

Play Pokemon Rumble.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 15:54:26 No.23262007 Report

Quoted By:

No 4x resist and 4x SE.

It mean only deal 12.5% when normal
25% on SE (2x and 4x)
and 6.25% on NVE (0.5x and 0.25x)

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 15:55:33 No.23262008 Report

Quoted By: >>23262033

>>23259510
>>23259588
You are missing the entire point of Stealth Rock.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1409902408791.png, 247KiB, 539x500

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:02:25 No.23262024 Report

Quoted By:

>disappear after 5 turns of the opposing pokemon being hitten
>only counts as supereffective on flying types
>Defog TM
>distribute Rapid Spin/Defog to more Pokemon or make those who already learn them more viable

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:06:50 No.23262033 Report

Quoted By: >>23265136

>>23262008
To be an entry hazard that can hit Flying-types and Levitators?
It doesn't need to completely fuck over a large minority of all Pokémon to accomplish that

This just changes it into a viable sidegrade for Spikes instead of a clearly superior option

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:10:28 No.23262040 Report

Quoted By:

Only deals damage up to 8 times before needing to be set again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:11:58 No.23262044 Report

Quoted By:

Pebbles deal 10% to anything grounded and 30% to anything not-grounded (Flying-types, levitators and Air Balloon users). This way, they are a direct counterpart to Spikes.
But I'm not sure if I'd really want them nerfed. Talonflame would instantly become the top threat in OU and you'd need to dedicate at least two mons to avoid getting swept by it. Unless Rock typing is improved defensively and becomes more viable in higher tiers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:13:04 No.23262046 Report

Quoted By: >>23262051 >>23263451 >>23263584

Rapid Spin has 80 BP

Gains 20 BP for each layer of Spikes and Toxic Spikes it removes. Gains 40 BP if it removes Pebbles.

New moves identical to Rapid Spin except in type. Say a Special Rock move and a physical Electric one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:15:13 No.23262051 Report

Quoted By: >>23262052

>>23262046
well congratulations you just made hazards shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:16:00 No.23262052 Report

Quoted By:

>>23262051
Fucking finally too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:17:41 No.23262057 Report

Quoted By:

If they keep the same damage scale they should give it an accuracy. Rock moves are known for great power but shitty accuracy so it doesnt make sense for SR to do damage like clockwork.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:18:38 No.23262059 Report

Quoted By: >>23262082

What is your problem with stealth rock?

Some borderline broke and actual broke mons are kept in check by it. Limits switching and infinite voltturns. Some things are pushed out of viability.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 16:28:21 No.23262082 Report

Quoted By:

>>23262059
It's anathema to karengaggotry since it punishes teams weak to Rock.
And you know, they refuse to get good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 21:13:45 No.23263295 Report

Quoted By: >>23263390

>>23259476
gets removed by are moves
>surf
>earthquke
>heat wave
stuff like that
mixed up movesets and a wide range of useful moves to remove it

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 21:24:24 No.23263338 Report

Quoted By:

>6.25% base damage
>Pokemon who 4x resist rock or are rock type take zero damage
>max damage is 25%

Seriously it's not that hard. It takes away the two major problems and balances them out so SR isn't 100% over-encompassing the other two entry hazards.

The big problems suddenly addressed now are
>hits every single Pokemon bar magic guarders, breaking sashes, sturdy, everything
>for one layer, can do up to 50% damage, whereas spikes takes 3 layers to even do 25% and doesn't hit a good 20% of Pokemon thanks to magic guard, levitate, and all of flying type

Any objections?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 21:37:56 No.23263390 Report

Quoted By:

>>23263295
>Mon used Foresight!
>Stealth Rock was identified!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 21:52:11 No.23263451 Report

Quoted By:

>>23262046
this but it stays at 20 BP

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 21:59:15 No.23263493 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259476
Looking at the types Rock hits SE I think the best way to handle it is to make a Grass Type equivalent. Make so that putting down one removes the other so you can't have both.

Hell make it remove from both sides and only add to the opponents so it is a new viable removal

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 2015-03-17 01.00.30.png, 80KiB, 206x256

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 21:59:59 No.23263497 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259476
>Poison pokemon that switch in then out take out entry hazards.

>entry hazards last for 3-5 switch ins

>moves like gyro ball, earthquake, get rid of them

>elemental rock. Stealth rock, stealth sicle, stealth vine, stealth pool etc. Can't be stacked

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 22:16:16 No.23263578 Report

Quoted By: >>23263825

Stealth rock exists because the other hazards do not affect Flying types or Levitators.
GF decided it would therefore get the same base damage as Spikes, made sure it wouldn't outclass Spikes by making it 1 layer at most, and made its damage calculation depend on type effectiveness, patted themselves on the back and went home.

Problems arose. First off, Rock is a good offensive type hitting more weaknesses than resists.
Second, the game became much more fast-paced after the two first gens that were rank stallfests competitively, and usually you would only get one layer of hazards up per game, so why not use the hazard that hits everything?
Third, many more pokemon learn Stealth rock than pokemon learn Spikes.
Fourth, its base damage is too high. A pokemon neutral to Rock takes the same damage from Stealth rock as from one layer of Spikes. Even if the Pokemon 4x resists Rock it still took damage, its Sturdy or Sash was broken and that's vitally important for offensive teams because now that Lucario dies to your +2 Mach punch. Flying-types keep their sash against Spikes, but with Stealth rock there is no escape.

In conclusion, Stealth rock are too good for their suuposed niche: a hazard that hits Flying types.
It punishes types like Bug that had "done nothing wrong" (Genesect is the ONLY good Bug-type user of U-turn, and it's part Steel and a legendary).

Spikes stack up to three layers as usual, but one of the layers can now be Stealth rock. If you place Spikes twice and SR once, you can lay no further spikes. If a Flying-type or levitating pokemon switches in, it takes twice the usual damage Spikes would inflict on a non-Flying type like this:
0 spikes, SR: 12,5 to Flying, 0 other things
1 spikes, SR: 33,3 to Flying, 12,5 other things
2 spikes, SR: 50 to Flying, 16,6 other things.
3 spikes, no SR: 0 to Flying, 25 other things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 22:17:16 No.23263584 Report

Quoted By:

>>23262046
That makes too much sense, gf will never do it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 22:23:26 No.23263624 Report

Quoted By:

1/3 damage to 4x weak (Volcarona, Talonflame)
1/6 damage to 2x weak (Staraptor, Beedrill)
1/12 damage neutral
1/24 2x weak
1/48 4x resist

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO bad bird.png, 134KiB, 674x500

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 22:25:22 No.23263634 Report

Quoted By: >>23263648

>>23259476
Make it stack up to thrice like Spikes. No damage increase.
Each time a Pokemon takes damage from it, one layer removes if incoming Pokemon is neutral to Rock, two layers remove if 2x resistant to Rock, and all layers remove if 4x resistant to Rock.

Problem solved.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 22:28:48 No.23263648 Report

Quoted By:

>>23263634
And when I say no damage increase, I mean with each layer. The 12.5, 25, 50, etc distribution remains.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Apr 2015 23:04:29 No.23263825 Report

Quoted By:

>>23263578
Alright.
I don't think sashmons are the central problem with hazards setters, but they don't work besides lead sets because of rocks. Sashmons are more suited to offense as a emergency check, FEAR being a lame example. The Lucario doesn't stand out as a good example, it could be securing a kill with LO but doesn't have too much firepower, in OU anyway.
I will agree that a powerful aspect of stealth rock is the guaranteed racked up damage, what makes suicide leads the metagame, and turns so many mons able to survive a hits guaranteed KOs or 2HKOs. That hazard setting is more difficult can be blamed on SR, because it enables offense to much more easily pressure defense.
Gimmick sets like the sturdy+endeavor/toxic get broken in half from hazard damage. On the other hand, it made things like prankster+roar able to rip apart a team.
Given the massive damage inflicted onto some unfortunately typed mons, I think GF decided to make some dangerously powerful pokemon with stealth rock weaknesses to try and compensate for that (Multiscale ability, Talonflame, Charizard's megas, maybe Volcarona).

There some pokemon I like that are massively hurt by stealth rock but at the same time, but they appreciate the enemy weakened by hazards. I don't want to say I love SR, but at the same time I've gotten used to it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Apr 2015 03:14:15 No.23265136 Report

Quoted By:

>>23262033
No, to fuck over Rock Types so you just need one rock move in your team and don't even need a Rock type pokemon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Apr 2015 04:21:28 No.23265487 Report

Quoted By: >>23265501

>>23259476
12.5% for land-based Pokemon
25% for Flying/Levitating Pokemon

There doesn't need to be a huge change, just to modify it to better suit its original purpose without hitting things like Bug/Ice that have no reason to be punished. Still, people who bitch endlessly about it don't seem to realize that having more than one Pokemon weak to one of the best offensive types in the game is retarded, and SR is basically doing them a favor pointing out the flaws in their team.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Apr 2015 04:22:46 No.23265493 Report

Quoted By:

>>23259495

I thought he meant Rock Slide.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Apr 2015 04:24:50 No.23265501 Report

Quoted By:

>>23265487
>best offensive types in the game
But stealth rock actually makes rock type attacks less influential and powerful simply by existing by making rock weak pokemon less valuable and rock resistant pokemon more valuable.

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