/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #30962198

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Did gen 2 balance Psychic types?

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 17:52:38 No.30962198 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>30962294 >>30962759 >>30962828 >>30963466 >>30969894

Be honest /vp/, the Dark type on its own was never going to be enough, but did any of the other changes do it? If Psychics weren't balanced in Gen 2, then when were they balanced?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 17:58:31 No.30962294 Report

Quoted By: >>30962359

>>30962198
Psychic still isn't balanced. It needs another resist, not only to assuage coverage but to also remove incentive for slapping Steel types on every team. Bug as a resist for both Psychic and Ghost would help balance all 3 parties.

Steel resisting Psychic doesn't even make that much sense considering Alakazam bends spoons all the time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:03:38 No.30962359 Report

Quoted By: >>30962415

>>30962294
>psychic still isn't balanced

Pyschic is pretty shit now m8

Espically without/before the Terrain

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:05:01 No.30962374 Report

Quoted By: >>30962422 >>30962427 >>30962443

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

When I was younger, I did all of gen 2 and 3 with just my starter and an EXP Shared Abra. Why was I always so confident in the Abra line? Is it just a good line of Pokemon, or is it the typing? At least for the gen 1 remakes I can see the argument of "Psychics had no good Pokemon to counter them in Kanto" but otherwise I'm at a loss.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:07:58 No.30962415 Report

Quoted By: >>30962612

>>30962359
That's not balanced. That's volatile. You can pair up a Mega Zam with something like a Magnezone and go to work on teams. Focus Blast is a thing when it should've never been. And again, part of what keeps Psychic at bay for the meantime is that Steel is outright broken. Few successful teams ever forgo a Steel type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:08:22 No.30962422 Report

Quoted By: >>30962553

>>30962374
Very High Speed + Very High Sp Attack = sweeper

Alakazam can OHKO a lot of things if it's 20+ levels higher with a SE move...

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:08:35 No.30962427 Report

Quoted By: >>30962553

>>30962374
Gen 1 pyschic types were broken and game crushing and you kept your bias with you

That's what I did for a long time

Early game in everyone one of those games too which is nice

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:09:37 No.30962443 Report

Quoted By: >>30962553

>>30962374

They're fast as hell and have crazy special attack and decent special defense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:13:55 No.30962526 Report

Quoted By:

I like how people are differing to a few good mons to prove psychic is broken.

Gen 1 they were broken because they had literally zero checks in typing and moves. gen 2 psychics were still really good, but that's mostly because there was like 2 decent dark types and one ghost type move that didn't rely on a gimmick.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:15:49 No.30962553 Report

Quoted By: >>30962576 >>30966309

>>30962422
>>30962427
>>30962443
Hmm, so in Gens 2 and 3, is it just the case that Alakazam was really fucking good, or was it that Psychic was a really good type and Alakazam was the best and most accessible of them?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:17:03 No.30962576 Report

Quoted By:

>>30962553
Both

And steel types and dark types are nowhere in Johto except a few trainers

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:19:24 No.30962612 Report

Quoted By: >>30962725

>>30962415
That's not a result of Psychic being broken that's a result of Alakazam's polarizing stats. Fuck off.

>>30962415
>Steel is outright broken.

Steel is a good type but it's not broken.

>Few successful teams ever forgo a Steel type.

>People use things that are good.

Tell me something I don't know.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:24:39 No.30962725 Report

Quoted By: >>30962817 >>30962829

>>30962612
Are you saying if Alakazam were a Steel type instead it would be nearly as successful offensively? When you can reduce your resists/immunities to less than you can count on half a hand it's easy to account for them. That's why Water is broken offensively too, since Ice covers everything except Water itself.

Steel has too many resists which can be tacked on to any mon to instantly make it better. Something you apparently don't know is that balance comes with not making particular types too good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:25:52 No.30962759 Report

Quoted By:

>>30962198
Gen 2 took a dump on psychic type's entire life.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:29:11 No.30962817 Report

Quoted By: >>30962946

>>30962725
Alakazam is great because of speed and coverage which includes focus Blast

And magic guard+focus sash

Psyschock is good too because it targets physical defenses

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:29:44 No.30962828 Report

Quoted By: >>30963008

>>30962198

The issue wasn't the Psychic type, but the stat distribution, movepools, lack of a physical special split, lack of strong ghost and bug moves/Pokemon, and the fact that everything was fucking part Poison, which is arguably the biggest factor.

Dark type didn't fix shit because it didn't address any of the real problems.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:29:48 No.30962829 Report

Quoted By: >>30962946

>>30962725
>That's why Water is broken offensively too, since Ice covers everything except Water itself.
>tfw I'm a dumb scrub who can't remember which of Fire/Grass/Water suck and why.
Honestly, all I can remember from my own experience is that Water had a huge advantage in Gen 1 because Surf was basically the best Water move in the game on top of being a HM and hence infinitely reusable, while almost all Grass and Fire types didn't even get access to the best moves of their type (outside of a TM?).

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:36:37 No.30962946 Report

Quoted By: >>30963037 >>30963081

>>30962817
Yes it has those perks, but Psychic typing is what enables it to handle mons as well as it does. Focus Blast is important too. Look at other successful Psychic mons: Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, and Hoopa-U. All broken because Psychic is hard to switch into generically when Fighting as a backup coverage breaks most Steel and Dark types.

>>30962829
Water is still dumb today because of Scald and Ice Beam, the former which can burn anything without a water immunity and hit the only thing super effectively that can't be burned, and the latter which hits Water's resists super effectively minus Water itself, which just plays into the type more.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:41:05 No.30963008 Report

Quoted By: >>30963050 >>30964751 >>30964821 >>30969417

>>30962828
>and the fact that everything was fucking part Poison
Why am I sceptical of this? I can think of plenty of common mons in the first few gens that weren't part Poison.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:42:59 No.30963037 Report

Quoted By: >>30963057 >>30963096

>>30962946
>hoopa U
You mean the thing with fucking 680 bst

> mega medicham
You mean the thing with double it's base 100 base attack

Giving it the second highest attack stat in the game

And you know even for their high bst they're fucking outclassed

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:44:18 No.30963050 Report

Quoted By:

>>30963008
He means in the sense that every possible check psychic could have had was also poison type. Making stuff gengar food for a lot of shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:44:57 No.30963057 Report

Quoted By:

>>30963037
Kek. You can make any type seem retarded as fuck by giving them Pokemon with high/polarizing BSTs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:46:52 No.30963081 Report

Quoted By:

>>30962946
Smogon doesn't even completely recommend Psychic stab on their M-medicham sets

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/medicham/

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:47:30 No.30963096 Report

Quoted By: >>30963118 >>30963191

>>30963037
The point is they're tied to the type.

GF wouldn't have had any reason to introduce Fairies if all Dragons were Altaria-tier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:48:34 No.30963118 Report

Quoted By: >>30963211

>>30963096
But that doesn't make the type itself broken/unbalanced.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:53:29 No.30963191 Report

Quoted By: >>30963294

>>30963096
That's not the type that's broken it's the Pokémon in the type.

Fairy on the other hand literally overpowered. It could bump Pokémon up 1-2 tiers after Insain power creeps

Look at Clefable, non mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, Whimiscott, Granbull, or Togekiss

That's a broken type right there

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:54:51 No.30963211 Report

Quoted By: >>30963258 >>30963274

>>30963118
The type is what grants resistances/weaknesses and effectiveness, which is what I'm talking about.

I feel like people only ever give this thought in retrospect after GF acts on it. You can easily make the argument 'Dragon wasn't broken, high BST mons of that type are broken!'

You've got shit like Mega Heracross which is strong but is balanced type-wise thanks to resists from Flying, Fairy, and Poison.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:57:45 No.30963258 Report

Quoted By: >>30963294

>>30963211
You really are retarded aren't you?

Psychic types aren't that good

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:58:25 No.30963274 Report

Quoted By: >>30963355

>>30963211
>The type is what grants resistances/weaknesses and effectiveness, which is what I'm talking about.
And Psychic's are trash tier. Being weak to bug and dark and resisted by steel is death. M-Zam has 175 SpA and 150 Speed, endless coverage, a move that lets it go pseudo mixed and still isn't broken because its type is so shitty.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:59:35 No.30963294 Report

Quoted By: >>30963387

>>30963191
Fairies are broken too, yeah. They condensed too many of its resists into things covered by Ground, namely.

>>30963258
You really don't have an argument, do you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:03:34 No.30963355 Report

Quoted By: >>30964928

>>30963274
On the weakness side yes that's good. But on the mons that resist it, it still has Focus Blast to handle them. Frankly the main reason Psychic type fears play is Pursuit. The big mons that do well in Psychic either outspeed, bulk, or are neutral to Dark alongside threatening them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:05:02 No.30963387 Report

Quoted By: >>30963470 >>30963493 >>30963603 >>30963669

>>30963294
>3 weaknesses
>immunity from Dark types
>The best distributed Psychic move is literally Psychic or Zen head butt with 90 accuracy
>almost all fighting types have knock off access
>typically have no bulk
>weak to both Sucker Punch and shadow sneak
>another type can hit one of the Pokémon it's good against and it's counter type and is better in almost every way and not weak to Fighting type shenanigans

Pretty shit before Psychic Terrain

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:10:27 No.30963466 Report

Quoted By:

>>30962198

Psychic has never been balanced, Psychic is still unbalanced, but on the crappy side instead of the mandatory typing side.

>gen 2 gave everyone and their mother Shadow Ball
>gen 3 and 4 started introducing more viable Bug+Dark moves
>Gen 5 did give us Magic Bounce tho.
>gen 6 gave tons of fighting types Knock Off+Knock Off Buff so now Psychics con't even reliably switch into them. Also the introduction of Fairy hurt Psychic even more due to it being a better offensive and defensive typing and Fighting counter/check

Gen 7 is the only time they were given some form of a real buff, but Psychic Terrain has shit distribution so the only Psychic Type benefiting from it is Lele.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:10:45 No.30963470 Report

Quoted By:

>>30963387
Oh I wanted to clarify that last part not everyone has whored out access to its movesets of Dark types and ghost types

Unlike poison and fairies

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:12:04 No.30963493 Report

Quoted By:

>>30963387
I wanted to clarify that last part almost everyone has whored out access to its movesets of Dark types and ghost types

Unlike poison and steel types

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:18:24 No.30963603 Report

Quoted By: >>30963773

>>30963387
Psychic is good considering other types got nerfed to 90 caps too, e.g. Surf for special Water, Energy Ball for special Grass, Play Rough for physical Fairy, etc.

Zen Headbutt at 90 accuracy sucks, but other types have 80 caps too like physical Water with Waterfall.

Sucker Punch is a valid contention, although it got nerfed plus it's already a 50/50 game.

Fairy operates differently from Psychic considering Poison types exist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:22:20 No.30963669 Report

Quoted By:

>>30963387
thats not they type being unbalanced,its the move/type distribution that is

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:28:12 No.30963773 Report

Quoted By: >>30964040

>>30963603
There's nothing like Thunder/Solar Beam/Blizzard/Fire Blast/Overheat/Draco Meteor/close combat/super power ect.

>inb4 psycho boost

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:45:00 No.30964040 Report

Quoted By: >>30964813

>>30963773
Psychic, like Dark type, has its own type special moves. Future Sight is the hard-hitter. Synchronoise is another one. And then most notably, there's Stored Power.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:01:59 No.30964388 Report

Quoted By:

>all these arguments
Come on guys, surely the competitive players have solved all of these problems by now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:21:47 No.30964751 Report

Quoted By:

>>30963008

Except Dark was introduced in the second gen as a reaction to Psychic dominating the first gen.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:24:44 No.30964813 Report

Quoted By: >>30964876

>>30964040
Did you just fucking list of Synchonoise as a valuable move

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:25:08 No.30964821 Report

Quoted By: >>30965446

>>30963008

We're not talking about the first few gens. Psychic wasn't ever a problem, it was just that there was an over representation of things Psychic specifically destroyed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:27:30 No.30964857 Report

Quoted By:

The issue was that the things made to check Psychic were garbage in general and not viable for fighting at all, let alone killing Psychics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:28:19 No.30964876 Report

Quoted By: >>30965033

>>30964813
No, I listed it as a hard-hitting move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:31:15 No.30964928 Report

Quoted By: >>30964955

>>30963355
Focus Blast is not good fuck off

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:32:47 No.30964955 Report

Quoted By:

>>30964928
Focus Blast is good enough fuck off

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:36:07 No.30965033 Report

Quoted By: >>30965140

>>30964876
Against what?

Psychic types?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:41:07 No.30965130 Report

Quoted By: >>30966133

There are too few viable bulky steel-types, and they are the only decent alakazam/tapu lele switch-ins in the game.
Every serious OU team needs one of celesteela (magnezone food), magearna (no recovery), skarmory (magnezone fucktoy), ferrothorn (magnezone food) or jirachi unless it wants to get buttfucked by le black fat lady of strong pink attacks or Mega Alakazam (or Alolan Muk, I guess?)
it needs another resist

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:41:28 No.30965140 Report

Quoted By:

>>30965033
Generically. You use it as a Z-Move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 20:56:23 No.30965446 Report

Quoted By:

>>30964821
>Psychic wasn't ever a problem

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 21:37:40 No.30966133 Report

Quoted By:

>>30965130
Psychic does not need another fucking resist.

It's already shit offensive-wise and you fucking retards want to make it worse.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 21:45:17 No.30966309 Report

Quoted By: >>30966540

>>30962553
Also the way Physical/Special worked back then. Alakazam had a huge movepool and lot of coverage with elemental punches and other shit.
Ghost and Dark both were Special, so went into Alakazams superior stat and Bug was just shit with no moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 21:57:29 No.30966540 Report

Quoted By: >>30967485

>>30966309
Ghost was physical, which was why Shadow Ball Snorlax was a thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 22:46:16 No.30967485 Report

Quoted By: >>30968367 >>30971343

>>30966540
>Ghost was physical
What where they thinking?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 22 Dec 2016 23:33:52 No.30968367 Report

Quoted By: >>30969165 >>30969422

>>30967485
Ghost doesn't even affect Psychic types in gen. 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Dec 2016 00:14:41 No.30969165 Report

Quoted By:

>>30968367
Yeah, but at least that was unintended.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Dec 2016 00:26:57 No.30969417 Report

Quoted By: >>30969607

>>30963008

Gen 1 was littered with poison types, and gengar especially, which should have been an easy check to psychic types was also part poison. Of course there were plenty of pokemon that weren't part poison, but it was very common:

>Bulbasaur line
>Beedrill line
>Arbok line
>Both nido lines
>Golbat line
>Vileplume line
>Venomoth line
>Victreebell line
>Tentacruel line
>Muk line
>Gengar line
>Weezing line

33 guys with poison in their type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Dec 2016 00:27:21 No.30969422 Report

Quoted By:

>>30968367
Lick does

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Dec 2016 00:36:00 No.30969607 Report

Quoted By:

>>30969417
>Gen 1 was littered with poison types,
What about gen 2? I don't remember that being nearly as bad. Same for 3.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Dec 2016 00:53:08 No.30969894 Report

Quoted By:

>>30962198
>the Dark type on its own was never going to be enough

The Dark type was enough, especially with how they nerfed the critical hit formula, Amnesia, and etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Dec 2016 02:12:36 No.30971343 Report

Quoted By:

>>30967485
Ikr I always thought dark and ghost should have been switched around

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Did gen 2 balance Psychic types?