/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #31702083

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:46:16 No.31702083 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>31702146 >>31702724 >>31702750

>claim that gen 4's split was bad for widening the gap between strong and weak pokemon
>people get mad and ignore every argument you make
>claim that move tutors are a bad idea for removing niches and, once again, transfering power to pokemon that are already strong
>people once again get mad and ignore every argument you make

Now I understand how Galileo felt.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:47:52 No.31702096 Report

Quoted By: >>31702112

Dumb frogposter

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:49:10 No.31702112 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702096
I know.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:49:11 No.31702114 Report

Quoted By: >>31702187

Explain why the gen 4 split was bad. Let's see the arguments.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:51:39 No.31702142 Report

Quoted By:

>tfw too intelligent for my own board

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:52:17 No.31702146 Report

Quoted By: >>31702253 >>31702263

>>31702083
the split was good and important - what made turned it shit was the introduction of IVs and Natures

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 01:55:51 No.31702187 Report

Quoted By: >>31702356 >>31702407 >>31702625

>>31702114
1 - the power gained by pokemon with already high stats was much higher than the power gained by pokemon with weak stats

2 - not having to divide your offenses makes dual STAB preferable to a single one, which means that pure typed pokemon have to compensate somewhere else (which often doesn't happens)

3 - with offensive prowess up, defensive pokemon with poor attacking stats are no longer able to function properly without recovery and a good defensive dual typing (excluding Chansey of course)

4 - the threshold between 3HKO and 2HKO was gone - most neutral STABs will 2HKO or 1HKO. Which means that too many pokemon are now unable to execute their strategy as they need one turn to setup

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:04:27 No.31702253 Report

Quoted By: >>31702286 >>31702318

>>31702146
IVs and natures aren't very relevant. A bigger change was EV being limited to 510, which, once again, tipped the scales in favor of offensive pokemon and striking first became more important than ever.

As for the split, an easy, in your face example: which is better, Alola Marowak or regular Marowak, and why?

It would be a fair discussion in gen 3. But thanks to it having its dual typing being used for BOTH offense and defense, Alola Marowak is simply better. And it represents everything wrong with the split. Single-typed pokemon that are fairly strong simply can't compete.

Since most here uses Smogon, guess which gen made previously OU and BL things fall all the way down to NU? Since I used the Marowak example, just check her.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:05:34 No.31702263 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702146
Stop posting any time
IVs have always been around you muppet

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:07:54 No.31702286 Report

Quoted By: >>31702467 >>31702708

>>31702253
>once a pokemon is OU, it should be OU forever
>her

kys

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:11:13 No.31702318 Report

Quoted By: >>31702556

>>31702253
What's stronger, Alolan Dugtrio or standard?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:15:22 No.31702356 Report

Quoted By: >>31702467

>>31702187
>3 - with offensive prowess up, defensive pokemon with poor attacking stats are no longer able to function properly without recovery and a good defensive dual typing (excluding Chansey of course)
>4 - the threshold between 3HKO and 2HKO was gone - most neutral STABs will 2HKO or 1HKO. Which means that too many pokemon are now unable to execute their strategy as they need one turn to setup
You say this like Gen IV wasn't the most defensive meta aside from Gen II. It's literally the only meta that Alakazam isn't OU, because sweepers aren't viable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:20:21 No.31702407 Report

Quoted By: >>31702467

>>31702187
I found the stall player

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:25:19 No.31702467 Report

Quoted By: >>31702494 >>31702524 >>31702708

>>31702286
Without direct nerfs (ie how the crit change killed Persian), what justifies a free fall from BL to NU? How do you explain this phenomenom?

Once again, arguments are dismissed in favor of shitposting.

>>31702356
Gen 1, 2 and 3 were much more defensive than 4.

Alakazam wasn't OU since gen 2.

I'm glad you mentioned Zam. It showcases all the problems I've mentioned in the OP.

Alakazam isn't viable in gen 4 because no dual STAB to properly use its special, offensive prowess got too high for it to Calm Mind and Recover properly, and most importantly, it lost Trick, killing its niche as a Trick - Calm Minder that could beat every single special wall in the game.

Thanks to the split, dark moves being physical meant that any Choice Scarfer could trap and remove Zam with Pursuit - were Pursuit still special, Zam would Calm Mind in their faces.

>>31702407
Stall became only a thing after GF realized that walls can't function without recovery - so now there's a power struggle. Either you kill something in 2 hits or you simply don't. Where before, in gen 3, repeated attrition would eventually take down the likes of Skarmory, Forretress, Steelix, Regice, etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:27:19 No.31702494 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702467
Correction - it lost exclusivity to Trick thanks to Platinum.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:29:48 No.31702524 Report

Quoted By: >>31702652

>>31702467
>Alakazam wasn't OU since gen 2.
And before you mention Alakazam being BL, remember that BL not only isn't a tier, but it's also only applied retroactively to Gen III, since BL has only been a thing since Gen IV anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:31:35 No.31702556 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702318
Regular, but it has much more to do with the speed loss and ability than with the typing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:36:51 No.31702625 Report

Quoted By: >>31702635 >>31702652

>>31702187
>with offensive prowess up, defensive pokemon with poor attacking stats are no longer able to function properly without recovery and a good defensive dual typing (excluding Chansey of course)
Does Rest not count as recovery or something?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:37:30 No.31702635 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702625
No.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:38:57 No.31702652 Report

Quoted By: >>31702665

>>31702524
Doesn't really changes the fact that people didn't use it.

>>31702625
Rest in the face of a Salamence, I dare you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:40:01 No.31702665 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702652
>Doesn't really changes the fact that people didn't use it.
In the same way that Persian is now classed as UU in RBY meta.

You know people still play old metas, right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:41:00 No.31702678 Report

Quoted By: >>31702703

You undeniably have a point. I still think there are more pros in favor of the split though. It made a lot of mons better, and the ones that got worse still remained decent for the most part. There are some gen iii casualties, sadly, but not so much. Actually gen i and ii pkmn didn't fall so hard, I wonder why.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:43:25 No.31702703 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702678
RIP Weezing.

Gen III-Gen III.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:44:14 No.31702708 Report

Quoted By: >>31703105

>>31702467
>>>31702286
>Without direct nerfs (ie how the crit change killed Persian), what justifies a free fall from BL to NU? How do you explain this phenomenom?
>Once again, arguments are dismissed in favor of shitposting.

Maybe there being like twice as many pokemon now, and the higher tiers being similar in size?

If you took all the currently existing pokemon and moves and stuff and reverted the split, I doubt you'd get anything much resembling the gen 3 metagame.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:45:28 No.31702724 Report

Quoted By: >>31702763 >>31702784

>>31702083
>trying to say anything bad about gen 4 on a board composed mostly of sinnohfoeti
Don't bother, anon. They can't even acknowledge that gen 4 is objectively the worst from a gameplay standpoint, don't expect them to be able to see anything as nuanced as that through their rose tinted nostalgia goggles.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:47:52 No.31702750 Report

Quoted By: >>31702791 >>31703141

>>31702083
You know, maybe it's because I never cared about competitive, but I like the physical/special split because it made moves more logical. Why would biting something or punching something with a burning fist not be physical and why would shooting a beam be physical? It also fixed Shadow Ball which was retarded before because it lowered Sp.Def but was physical which made no sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:49:04 No.31702763 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702724
how can gen 4 be objectively the worst when gen 1 exists?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:51:49 No.31702784 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702724
Dont turn this into a gen war you faggot. Under what grounds can you claim that this board is mostly comprised of Sinnohfags? I'd say it's pretty even across all gens. If I had to pick, I'd say Johto and Hoennfags are the majority

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:52:27 No.31702791 Report

Quoted By: >>31703141

>>31702750
I kind of fall here too. Almost all dark moves seemed like they should be physical and a lot of ghost moves should have been special, and now they are. not to mention that pre-split some pokemon were almost completely useless because their STAB(s) were based on the attack stat that they were much weaker with, and their non-STAB movepool was terrible.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 02:59:26 No.31702865 Report

Quoted By:

You say most of this only focusing on the Pokémon that went from good to great when instead you should be think of the real reason the split was put in place. It was to help Pokémon go from fuck awful to half decent, the split limited the variety between Pokémon being special or physical. If you were a grass type you better be specially invested or you're FUCKED. Pokémon like Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, Kingler, Hitmonchan and the like were all GARBAGE before the split, some listed suffered greater than others, as their typing/movepool actively worked against their stat distribution. Sure these Pokémon weren't turned into competitive gods for the most part after the split, but having Sharpedo be able to use its attack stat for STAB moves is infinitely better than hitting opponents with sub 100 STAB in RSE.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 03:00:12 No.31702877 Report

Quoted By: >>31703141

the physical / special split is what caused dragons to spiral out of control, which in turn caused fairies

fuck it

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 03:24:56 No.31703105 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702708
I'm comparing the jump between gen 3 to gen 4.

Of course, 4 gens later it wouldn't look the same.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 08 Feb 2017 03:29:04 No.31703141 Report

Quoted By:

>>31702750
>>31702791
The biggest problem wasn't the split itself, but the moves it added, and not nerfing previous moves that woul be too good with the split.

For example, Flare Blitz over Fire Punch, Outrage (now 120 BP) over Dragon Claw, etc.

Garchomp's STABs were 100 BP and 120 BP... it's insane.

>>31702877
Yep. Way back when fairies were revealed I was already talking about nerfing dragon moves because they were the problem, but oh well, here we are dealing with Tapus and Xerneas bullshit.

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