/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #32568392

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Baton Pass in OU

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:31:04 No.32568392 View View Reply Original Report

The OU council is considering banning Baton Pass as a whole, instead of keeping the retarded clause we have now.
What's your opinion on this?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:32:36 No.32568401 Report

Quoted By: >>32569449 >>32571433

Looks like ninjask is dead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:36:01 No.32568416 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574 >>32570694

Scolipede will drop several tiers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:36:26 No.32568419 Report

Quoted By: >>32568441 >>32568513 >>32568574

>>32568392
Scolipede didn't deserve this. Anyways. I don't care whether they test it or not they need to get rid of Grenigger or Tapu Geyle first.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:39:30 No.32568431 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574 >>32568704 >>32569340 >>32571588

I hope that guy who singlehandedly saved Dugtrio comes back and writes a master thesis on Baton Pass (Scolipede) to save it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:39:32 No.32568433 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

God smogon is retarded

>this thing is really good!
>ban it!

This is how they deal with there problems?? Sigh

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:41:39 No.32568441 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574

>>32568419
>Scolipede didn't deserve this.
He absolutely did, fuck this nigger "strategy".

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:42:47 No.32568445 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

>I got swept by a Baton Pass team, therefore it has no place in the metagame and should be banned

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:49:23 No.32568463 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574

>>32568392
Ban, nobody dry passes these days.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 08:57:03 No.32568498 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574

>playing OU

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:00:56 No.32568512 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

>2017
>still paying by smogon rules
lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:01:16 No.32568513 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574

Good. The clause was unnecessarily elaborate and even a single boost + Substitute pass was enough to break numerous things in lower tiers, like Celebi -> Hydreigon in Gen 6 UU. Boost passing is just too good in 6v6 singles.

>>32568419
Scolipede is still very good in UU both as standalone sweeper and Spikes lead. Also a niche OU pick with all those priorityless Fairies to jab the fuck out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:20:54 No.32568553 Report

Quoted By: >>32568574

>>32568392
I have no strong feelings against or for BP but I think it should be completely banned or unbanned (probably banned) to get rid of this stupidly complex ban

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:26:18 No.32568566 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
OU council is considering to kill Showdown and Smogon by being full retarder like never before, they're welcome.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:30:18 No.32568574 Report

Quoted By: >>32568579 >>32568592 >>32571116 >>32571712

>>32568392
>>32568416
>>32568419
>>32568431
>>32568441
>>32568463
>>32568498
>>32568513
>>32568553

Man all i read from these posts was

BAAA BAAA BAAA BAAAAA

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:33:13 No.32568579 Report

Quoted By: >>32568586

>>32568574
I don't have enough time or crayons to explain the problem with you

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:34:49 No.32568583 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

Smogon keeps getting more and more retarded I see

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:34:54 No.32568584 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
>it's finchinator
that literal jewkike has been a joke in a lot of suspects
he's likely to collect another defeat

at least he has tongued enough smogon circlekerj anuses to propose suspects

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:35:11 No.32568586 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

>>32568579
Fuck you fuck you FUCK YOUUUU

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:36:19 No.32568592 Report

Quoted By: >>32570370

>>32568574
That's because you can't read

>>32568392
I dont have a problem with baton pass teebeeaych. But I usually use a lot of stuff with counter

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:44:59 No.32568612 Report

Quoted By: >>32568790 >>32569312

>>32568392
>we want to preserve all the playstyle
>we want to ban baton pass and this and that
every. time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:51:00 No.32568630 Report

Quoted By: >>32571043 >>32571712

>>32568392
>This strategy works, we can't have that. Everyone must play what I like i.e. stall.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 09:58:50 No.32568656 Report

Quoted By: >>32569193 >>32569327 >>32569469

Baton Pass did nothing wrong. Literally just use a funaware Pokemon of your choice.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 10:09:37 No.32568704 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568431
The funny thing is according to the Metagrossite suspect thread Dugtrio might end up being retested anyway

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 10:37:54 No.32568790 Report

Quoted By: >>32570339

>>32568612
>we want to preserve all the playstyle
Nobody other than pseudosmogonite scrubs has ever said that. Every single ban ever made in Smogon's history was made to carter to Balance playstyle (4/2 offensive + 2/4 defensive mons) and in most cases they were carried out in situations when it was better to either go fully offensive or fully defensive.
Baton Pass playstyle has always been a skillless gimmick that should've never existed. So is full stall, except that one's so effective there is a huge pro-stall lobby on that community that do their best to delay anti-stall bans as long as possible.
Pokemon is a joke of a competitive game anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 11:22:24 No.32568925 Report

Quoted By:

I think baton pass is in a good place right now, removing the clause would be absolutely batshit insane and it would cause scolipede to jump to ubers most likely
banning baton pass entirely, I don't think it's necessary since it's perfectly fine right now

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 11:34:54 No.32568953 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

>>32568392
>it's a smogon shitters can't get gud episode
Kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:07:52 No.32569042 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
I oppose it because that would drop Decidueye to unranked. That's a fate that Decidueye doesn't deserve.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:13:46 No.32569061 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
Ban Stored Power, problem solved. Baton Pass is vital to having a diverse metagame that gives anything a chance to shine, it's just the Stored Power spammers that are broken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:17:59 No.32569066 Report

Quoted By:

>the OU Council
fuck me hahahaa never heard of a thing more pretentious. excuse the unfamiliarity

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:23:27 No.32569083 Report

Quoted By: >>32569097 >>32569111

I don't understand why banning Scolipede and Smeargle isn't an option (Ninjask a shit). The reason why the previous bans didn't work isn't because BP is inherently broken, it's because not a single one of those restrictions touched ScoliPass.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:27:29 No.32569097 Report

Quoted By: >>32569111

>>32569083

Should also point out that unlike with Shadow Tag, where Gothorita and Wynaut worked just as well as their evos, Scolipede's pre-evos can't learn Baton Pass.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:31:34 No.32569111 Report

Quoted By: >>32569127 >>32569213

>>32569083
>>32569097
Scolipede functions virtually the same as Ninjask did on Baton Pass teams nowadays.

Sub, Protect, Baton Pass, any attack or some other move @ Leftovers

So banning Scoli wouldn't do anything significant.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:33:05 No.32569118 Report

Quoted By: >>32569128

I thought this shit was already banned.

I couldn't even use a Curse Passing Pyukumuku or a Stockpile Passing Drifblim because the team builder said these Pokemon with Baton Pass were banned.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:37:09 No.32569127 Report

Quoted By: >>32569179

>>32569111

Scolipede can live a priority attack and pass more than once. Ninjask has never been able to make a splash in UU or RU, whereas Scoli had to be banned from both.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:37:16 No.32569128 Report

Quoted By: >>32569140

>>32569118
you can't have two pokemon with bp on the same team, dudebro.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:41:00 No.32569140 Report

Quoted By: >>32569146

>>32569128
Not on the same team, mind you. Two different instances.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:43:25 No.32569146 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569140
Then maybe because you were using them in UU or RU.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:58:44 No.32569178 Report

Quoted By: >>32569211 >>32569221 >>32570586 >>32570664

>>32568392
I mean, he's not even saying that Baton Pass is broken, he's just saying that it's an effective play style. What kind of a reason for a ban is that? I hate how nowadays Smogon are not banning things because they can't deal with them, they're banning things because they don't WANT to deal with them. Baton Pass isn't broken, Dugtrio isn't broken but they're most likely going to suspect it again because they just want it gone, and M-Metagross wasn't broken either. It's just the same old story of "We don't like playing against this, let's get rid of it". The only two proper reasons for a ban are if something has no viable counter play whatsoever (i.e. it's straight up broken) or if something over-centralizes the meta to the point where practically nothing but said play style and its counter teams are viable. Neither has been the case in Gen VII ban by the way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 12:58:51 No.32569179 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569127
Wasn't Scolipede banned before they passed the limit to being able to pass speed alongside any other stat?

It had that Iron Defense + Speed going for it over Ninjask which was just SD + Speed at best.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:05:25 No.32569193 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568656
>literally every single team MUST have one of two specific Pokemon
Anon, why? I bet you thought copycat was fine because you could sideboard against it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:11:06 No.32569211 Report

Quoted By: >>32569356

>>32569178
He's implying the effectiveness is due to lack of significant counter-play options. Haze is probably the best solution and it's what I use, but things like Xurkitree or Thundurus-T or Magearna can take advantage of the prominent Haze users being on the field (who are Water-type) to set up or deliver a hard hit.

I'm still on the fence about it, since I don't want Baton Pass to go because it kills a lot of creativity but at the same time new ways to exploit it will arise every time a new restriction is imposed.

And I agree Dugtrio isn't broken but Mega Metagross was totally broken, considering it even began to run HP Fire for Mega Scizor, its best counter. The reason they're going after Dugtrio is because it's how they think they should approach the issue of stall. I would rather see Chansey (and by extension, Blissey) go than Dugtrio because at least Dugtrio can be used AGAINST stall as well to remove things like Chansey or Toxapex.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:11:24 No.32569213 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569111
Ninjask is way, way worse than Scolipede.

There is a reason baton pass ban was never bought up until gen 6. In fact running a Ninjask lead in gen 4 was an instant free win flag.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:13:24 No.32569221 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569178
Preventing Scolipede from setting up and passing is surprisingly hard unless you antilead with Pinsir or Heracross. If it is successful at passing the boosts then the situation is most likely already out of control, because it's extremely difficult to fit answers for mons with passed boosts on top of everything else.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:16:05 No.32569228 Report

Quoted By: >>32569235

I bet those of you defending baton pass don't even know a realiable way of dealing with it especially on offense.
And also scolipede can survive all priority moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:17:36 No.32569235 Report

Quoted By: >>32569240 >>32569242

>>32569228

>accelerock
>aerilate quick attack

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:18:45 No.32569240 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569235

I said survive meaning scolipede can just protect on the move and then baton pass after surviving the next one

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:19:11 No.32569242 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569235
>252+ Atk Choice Band Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:20:14 No.32569245 Report

Quoted By: >>32569258 >>32569260 >>32569688

What about using Mega Alakazam.
Provided Scoli doesn't have Mega Horn which it never runs anyways.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:20:19 No.32569246 Report

Quoted By:

Smogon in the year 2077
>any stat below 120 is shit
>stat boosting is banned
>stall is mandatory
>only OOU tier remains

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:21:31 No.32569253 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
i don't understand why can't they just ban passing with any stat raised, baton pass is not just used to get dank pimpnite sweeps but also to get momentum

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:22:21 No.32569258 Report

Quoted By: >>32569263 >>32569271

>>32569245

+1 scolipede still outspeeds it so after one protect it can just spam sub or baton pass to whenever it wants

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:23:28 No.32569260 Report

Quoted By: >>32569271

>>32569245

scolipede at +1 speed still outspeeds it so after one protect it can just spam sub or just baton pass to whatever it wants

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:23:49 No.32569263 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569258
Are you taking Trace into account?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:25:43 No.32569271 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569260
>>32569258

apologies I thought my post didn't register as the thread didn't update after I posted

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:32:32 No.32569284 Report

Quoted By: >>32569287 >>32569660

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-576995529

>Z-fly dugtrio to remove mega hera

kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:33:33 No.32569287 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569284
(meant fly-Z on aerial ace that was phrased awkwardly)

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:37:27 No.32569305 Report

Quoted By:

Baton pass is a nigger tier srat but it does have its place in OU. Mainly stomping shitters with bad teams who dont have a way to deal with
baton pass. Any team worth a damn should have no issue handling baton pass especially with that handicap smogon has on it.

For anyone who doesnt remember there was cancer team with double screens and baton pass that was pretty much unbeatable. It got to the point where people had to run several pokemon to stop the chain or you'd be fucked by the 3rd turn.

Can someone post a cancer tier team so can dump on bads on smugon? have this cool picture i found.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:38:18 No.32569312 Report

Quoted By: >>32569676

>>32568612
it's meme, from greek.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:41:16 No.32569320 Report

Quoted By:

allowing the indecisive public to have a voice in tiering was a mistaken that should had been revoked ASAP instead it's ingrained and grown like the cancer it is.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:41:45 No.32569321 Report

Quoted By: >>32569376

>The OU Council
Sounds a little too cloak and dagger for a bunch of turboautists who obsess over pokeyman

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:43:07 No.32569327 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568656
Implying you can actually fit unaware on anything that's not stall. Not to mention the main baton recipient, Manaphy, beats every Unaware user

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:46:36 No.32569340 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568431
I hope there clause is undone and baton pass stays. Seriously why must we punish anyone who builds team strategy? Nasty plot baton pass Mew or Celebi is too op? Iron defense, Swords dance Baton Pass speed boost Scolipede is too much, then ban it. There is no reason that the Baton Pass team should be made any less viable than it already is because of a fucking external clause. It is a team building strategy in a strategy game. However, i'm not dismissing banning op pokemon, but this won't land Espeon in ubers, and it would hardly change the meta

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:49:52 No.32569353 Report

Quoted By:

Sounds like smogon, only muh-mentum lion is a viable pivot. I don't care if this means we're further neutering psychic types fuck em. They shouldn't have stayed in on an obvious u-turn from banded Lando-t, they should've hard switched their scarfed Mew. I don't see how this is a problem???????

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:50:21 No.32569356 Report

Quoted By: >>32569411

>>32569211
Without Dugtrio stall becomes incredibly easy to handle because the pool of viable/effective stallbreakers increases esponentially. And Shadow Tag was already deemed uncompetitive and banned, I don't see why not banning Arena Trap which is the same thing except it doesn't trap Flying types.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:56:50 No.32569376 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569321
Smogon is made up of turboautists but their core is made up of stem grads from ivy league schools.

>tfw smogon was my first online community

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:56:56 No.32569377 Report

Quoted By: >>32569563

>tfw you're too intelligent for HO
>tfw your intelligence causes you to be shunned as a "filthy staller"
You fags will never understand me. Clefable, Chansey and Sableye are unironically among my favorite Pokemon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 13:58:25 No.32569381 Report

Quoted By: >>32569400

There comes a point at which the game they're playing is no longer Pokemon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:04:44 No.32569400 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569381
Thank you, well put

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:08:07 No.32569411 Report

Quoted By: >>32570742

>>32569356
The stallbreakers benefiting from Duggy's absence are broken mons in general that will see the door sometime down the road anyway, e.g. Maw, Lele, Hoopa-U.

Things like Togekiss, Alolan Marowak, and Stored Power abusers can still crack it wide open.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:08:39 No.32569414 Report

Quoted By:

Here's a scientific fact for you. Smogon is literally Chris-Chan autism.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:11:50 No.32569419 Report

Quoted By: >>32569440

There's one thing I don't understand, if someone could explain it to me since I don't play 6v6 very often. Scolipede, the best abuser of BP, is currently B+ on the viability rankings. Espeon and Necrozma are arguably the best receivers and they aren't even ranked. What gives? If BP is such a powerful, oppressive strategy then why aren't the rankings reflecting that?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:13:50 No.32569428 Report

Quoted By: >>32569442 >>32570647

>>32568392
I'm not one of these faggots that thniks Smogon is a shit show but ever since S/M they have been extremely ban-happy. How many bans are necessary until they are 'satisfied' with a standard metagame?

If everything were unbanned (not the obviously broken shit like Speed Boost Mega Blaziken etc) would the metagame truly be THAT much worse? If you have to ban 70% of the fucking game then it's no longer a true representation of the game right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:16:21 No.32569440 Report

Quoted By: >>32569451

>>32569419
>they aren't even ranked.
But they are ranked
>If BP is such a powerful, oppressive strategy then why aren't the rankings reflecting that?
Part of what makes a mon high rank in the VR is versatility and how little team support that mon needs to function.
Obviously those two mons aren't versatile at all, because they only function in BP teams, and require lots of team support to work.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:17:08 No.32569442 Report

Quoted By: >>32569455

>>32569428
>since S/M they have been extremely ban-happy
You realize there are people, even on /vp/ (ESPECIALLY on /vp/) that keep ranting about how they aren't banning enough and need to ban Tapu Lele, Mega Sableye, Landorus-T, Greninja and so forth?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:18:09 No.32569449 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568401
Its been dead since Scolipede got Speed Boost though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:18:39 No.32569451 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569440
>But they are ranked
My mistake. I could have sworn they got kicked out of the c ranks a while ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:19:20 No.32569455 Report

Quoted By: >>32569487

>>32569442
I'd call them ban-happy too. I don't have to pick between /vp/ and smogon. Perhaps both are extremely retarded.

Let's just ban everything then. Fuck it. At this rate OU is a shitshow and perhaps UU is a more stable tier or fucking Ubers. OU just seems so destabilized at the moment that it isn't worth playing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:21:59 No.32569469 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568656
unaware doesn't stop stored power from increasing in BP.
quagsire is really clunky in anything but stall and can't even break necrozma's subs.
pyu gets cucked by magic bounce.
clef is either set up bait (deffensive) or 2HKO'd by necro with six boosts (+2 speed and 2 CM, really easy since even modest 252 spa moonblast doesn't 2HKO uninvested necro's)

The others are irrelevant

I'm not saying BP is overpowered, I'm just saying unaware is not an answer.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:25:57 No.32569484 Report

Quoted By:

Why not just ban Scolipede?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:26:30 No.32569487 Report

Quoted By: >>32569526

>>32569455
I just find it funny how in /vp/ you've got one side mocking smogon for banning everything and another ranting about how they're retarded for not banning those mons. I guess this is what is meant by
>implying /vp/ is one person

Personally I don't have an opinion on whether they ban too much or too little, but I do think some of their rules might be a little outdated. For instance, why is it that after all these gens the percentage for staying in a tier is still the same? With so many niche yet viable options now available isn't it about time to reduce the minimum percentage just a little bit?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:26:33 No.32569488 Report

Quoted By:

Just ban Scollipede + Baton Pass. Done.

The point of having tiers is to promote metagames where a diversity of gameplays can grow. Killing Baton Pass kills diversity so fuck anyone who wants to ban it.

>B-but more problems will arise later!
Then you deal with them when they show up.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:30:12 No.32569508 Report

Quoted By: >>32569517 >>32569571 >>32569605

>ban baton pass from UU and below
>nobody cares
>want to do the same in OU, the tier where baton pass cancer is most prevalent
>everyone loses their shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:32:52 No.32569517 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569508
/vp/ only cares about OU. In fact, most antismogonfags seem to think OU is the only tier that matters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:34:24 No.32569525 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

>>32568392
>people unironically give a shit about smogon
Remind me why
They're all just stallfags who are terrible at balancing anything they don't spam

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:34:27 No.32569526 Report

Quoted By: >>32569547 >>32569556 >>32569558 >>32569569 >>32570668

>>32569487
This is a very good point. We're reaching a crazy amount of semi-viable pokemon and tiers are no longer able to encapsulate a good representation of what is viable or what is 'strong'

the BL ''tiers'' are the best example. Azumarill is deemed too strong for UU but simply doesn't have the usage for OU so we have to call it "BL" which is bullshit. Just call it OU.

Another example are these Niche UU/RU/lower pokemon who are strong in their tier, mostly shit in OU but have a very specific niche IN OU or possibly Ubers. The tier system doesn't represent these niches very well and as more and more pokemon are made, these niche sets grow quickly and becomes impossible to represent accurately with the usage-tier system. Clefable is clearly in UU but is perfectly viable in OU despite the usage stats for example.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:37:04 No.32569540 Report

Quoted By:

Have they banned Phero, Koko, and Lele yet? If not, they can fuck right off with trying to ban stuff as silly as this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:38:49 No.32569547 Report

Quoted By: >>32569575

>>32569526
>Azumarill is deemed too strong for UU but simply doesn't have the usage for OU so we have to call it "BL" which is bullshit. Just call it OU.
Literally what difference does that make? In that case it's just a label that means nothing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:39:45 No.32569549 Report

Quoted By:

I mostly play AG and wanted to use scolipede for a while. Besides iron defense and Baton pass what is the set people in OU is complaining about?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:41:03 No.32569551 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
>there are clearly still effective teams making use of this strategy
>this is considered a good argument

Is this a joke? Why not just ban every OU Pokémon?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:41:24 No.32569556 Report

Quoted By: >>32569590

>>32569526
Maybe if they ban Baton pass, Blaziken can come back to OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:41:28 No.32569558 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569526
The Viability Ranking are the answer to this problem, but the way the are handled needs to be improved

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:42:15 No.32569563 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569377
Same here lad. Stall is the only play style in enjoy. Theres just something about those Pokemon that seems aesthetic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:43:01 No.32569569 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569526
Samefagging.

Another problem are pokemon that are very much used either due to metagames within their tier or just being popular (despite possibly being shit) but aren't actually overpowered in the lower tiers.

Dugtrio for example is literally only used due to arena trap. It's stats are shit, and genuinely isn't overwhelmingly strong. It makes you wonder if it could function in UU perfectly fine without being 'overpowered'. Remember, these tiers are based on popularity first and foremost. A shitmon can be SUPER popular or just be a simple gimmick that inflates what tier it should be in (power-wise) but isn't usable in a lower tier where it may very well not be 'overpowered'.

Scolopede is another example. It's only OU due to baton pass+speed boost gimmick but without baton pass, in UU it would have to compete with fucking salamence and metagross and the like, pokemon it couldn't handle back in gen 5 so why would it be able to do it now? It's not a perfect example but it goes to show that these tiers are flawed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:43:17 No.32569571 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569508
OU is the American politics of Pokemon. Sure Europe, Australia, Nigeria, and Brazil exist, but who the fuck cares when America exists.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:44:06 No.32569575 Report

Quoted By: >>32569584 >>32569633

>>32569547
So trim the fat. Why bother having these 'middle' tiers other than to bloat terminology? Borderline IS OU. It is literally OU so why bother calling it borderline?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:46:28 No.32569584 Report

Quoted By: >>32569614

>>32569575
To show that the pokemon doesn't get high usage in OU and was just banned from the tier below.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:47:38 No.32569590 Report

Quoted By: >>32569601 >>32569755

>>32569556
If they would just fucking ban speed boost on Blaziken, I bet it would be UU with Mega being banned to Ubers since there is no alternative.

Smogon is full of hypocrisy. They say they don't like complicated bans YET they are perfectly willing to say stupid shit like "only 1 Baton passer" or "no damp rock" or back in gen 5 it was "no drizzle + swift swim, just one or the other".

Start banning certain abilities from certain mons if they are too powerful. They already do complicated bans so just embrace it. But this is merely my opinion. I can understand not wanting to split hairs too much and bloat the ruleset (even though they are perfectly willing to bloat terminology like OU/BL, UU/BL2 etc)

Like I said, Hypocrisy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:49:41 No.32569601 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569590
Yeah, the minute I saw the swift swim + drizzle combo ban instead of just outright sending weather to Ubers, I lost complete faith in Smogon. It's sad to see that the spiral downward continues to grow.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:50:08 No.32569605 Report

Quoted By: >>32570637

>>32569508
That's because UU (and pretty much every other tier) is there to be a temporal distraction of the sheer madness OU has become.

Also, daily reminder that if they kill Baton Pass, both Scolipede and Xurkitree will be banished to BL hell.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:51:35 No.32569614 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569584
Then it is a problem with the usage. It may be time, like some other anon said, to re-evaluate the usage benchmarks.

There is no perfect system. I'm not trying to say I could do better or that smogon is entirely incompetent. It just seems like they are shortsighted or their methodology is dated/weak/ineffective. Maybe it always was, maybe it has simply gotten worse over these last few years but we definitely can see it here in S/M.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:54:42 No.32569631 Report

Quoted By:

They would have to remove the move from the rotations of Metronome then, because then the memes begin

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 14:55:02 No.32569633 Report

Quoted By: >>32569662

>>32569575
>'middle' tiers
BL isn't a middle tier. It's not even a tier. It's a ban list for the lower usage tiers. The title of BL (Border Line) shows why it exists. Those Pokemon were way too good for that tier, but don't have enough usage to be in the higher tier. Removing BLs and putting them in the tier above would be lying to people.
Not only that, but putting all the BL Pokemon into OU (and the other BLs into their respective tiers) would just create a BL refugee crisis where to above tier is way too crowded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:00:44 No.32569660 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569284
You are terrible at this game.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:01:05 No.32569662 Report

Quoted By: >>32569730 >>32570323 >>32570501

>>32569633
That's right but here is the issue. (I have to leave so I'll make this quick, sorry).

In UU if a pokemon is really good then it's usage goes up. If it is crazy good it's usage explodes in which case it should automatically find itself pushed out of its tier and into the next one.

If Azumarill facefucks UU, it's usage goes up, it automatically should find its way into the OU threshold thus boom, no manual ban required.

That's how the tiers were designed to work... on paper but they aren't working that way because these 'middle' tiers are becoming more and more bloated. That is a sign that the usage system isn't working and needs to be re-evaluated.

But this is a game for fucking 10 year olds and autistic NEETS so who fucking cares?

Was fun guys, gotta run.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:05:02 No.32569676 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569312
It's supposed to sound like "gene", so the pronunciation changes based on the way your language says gene. In English "meem" is correct, but in Spanish for example it would be more like "maymay".

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:07:35 No.32569688 Report

Quoted By: >>32569706 >>32569792

>>32569245
>le smogon is retarded
>This are your fucking solutions

/vp/ truly is full of shitters

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:09:28 No.32569702 Report

Quoted By: >>32571712

>>32568392
Holy shit this is such a shit show.

Can ANYONE on smogon take a loss on something that isn't stall?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:09:59 No.32569706 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569688
has there ever been any doubt? Especially after that thread where that dude kept saying Regice is better than Chansey.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:13:44 No.32569726 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392

After seeing the shitshow that was the Metagrossite ban on the smogon discord I should have expected this.

Holy shit the OU council...what have you done now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:14:24 No.32569730 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569662
>In UU if a pokemon is really good then it's usage goes up. If it is crazy good it's usage explodes
Only in UU, not OU. Unless a BL Pokemon raises in usage in OU, nothing will be done for it raising in usage. And most of those BL Pokemon won't be seeing OU usage until some drastic change in the OU meta is made. They were UU for a reason you know.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:18:41 No.32569755 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569590
>If they would just fucking ban speed boost on Blaziken, I bet it would be UU
Blaze Blaziken is an NU shitmon outclassed by both Infernape and Emboar.
>"only 1 Baton passer"
That's what they're trying to fix now.
>"no damp rock"
Never happened, not even complex either.
>"no drizzle + swift swim, just one or the other"
They fucked up and admitted it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 15:27:51 No.32569792 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569688
Please tell me how it isn't valid

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 16:49:27 No.32570189 Report

Quoted By: >>32570236 >>32570249

I'm not worried about scolipede. Scolipede does fine with swords dancing offensive stats. The one I'm worried about is pyukumuku; if BP gets banned that boy is dead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 16:55:43 No.32570236 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570189
It's a dumb gimmick dude, Pyuku was never good

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 16:57:52 No.32570249 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570189
Nobody uses Pyuku on anything except stall and even then it's a niche pick

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:05:16 No.32570296 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
Good.
The old clause was way too complicated and was the elephant in the room whenever smogon claimed to make clauses as simple as possible.
Baton Pass absolutely needs to be controlled in singles, and removing it completely is no big loss. Anybody that says this decision is only made to protect stall is a fucking idiot, baton pass is cancer regardless of what playstyle you're facing it with. It is just an ugly case of snowballing in general, and once it has started rolling they will just baton pass on whenever you switch in a counter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:11:04 No.32570323 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569662
>If Azumarill facefucks UU, it's usage goes up, it automatically should find its way into the OU threshold thus boom, no manual ban required.
That's not how it works.
Azumarill will only be OU if its usage in OU is above the threshold. It can have 100% usage in UU and it wouldn't matter unless its OU usage was above 3.41%.
That's why BL and such exist. It prevents pokémon that are too good for a lower tier to cause havoc if they're shit in a higher tier.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1492335364573.png, 41KiB, 300x273

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:13:11 No.32570339 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568790
>A game that wasnt initially designed to be super competitive is shit at being competitive
Oh my god WHO WOULD OF GUESSED!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:17:07 No.32570370 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568592
>teebeeaych
really

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:26:34 No.32570424 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
Since pretty much every dude that can post in the thread wants Baton Pass gone, the is it safe to say the move will be quickbanned instead of doing a suspect ladder?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:36:25 No.32570501 Report

Quoted By: >>32570528 >>32570609

>>32569662
They need to drop the usage percent for each tier and just divide OU into two tiers already. Right now OU is crowded as shit between average OU mons, Pokemon who are sitting right between OU and Ubers, and things that got bumped into UU because there's no space left (or because the heaviest hitters are just too hard to keep up with).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:37:44 No.32570512 Report

Quoted By:

Just ban Scolipede. BP isn't an issue without a speed booster. If Ninjask becomes an issue, ban that too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:39:14 No.32570528 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570501
What you're suggesting is to increase the usage percent above 3.41% though, not to drop it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:50:11 No.32570586 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569178

Sorry friend, I have to disagree, anyone who's played against M-Metagross paired with Koko/Lele can't say it isn't broken. Psychic-Terrain boosted Zen Headbutt carves through so much, honestly reminded me of playing against Mega Luke at times

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 17:56:27 No.32570609 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570501
It's called uber and UU

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:01:36 No.32570637 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569605
Xurkitree would be fine UU. Slow speed and checked by Amoonguss, special defensive unaware clef, Blissey, Celebi, and Nido family

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:03:09 No.32570647 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569428

>ban-happy

Suspect tests were delayed so much friend
Still waiting for Protean Greninja suspect

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:06:33 No.32570664 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569178
>>I mean, he's not even saying that Baton Pass is broken
>>The OU Council believes that Baton Pass, as a move, should be banned from the SM OU metagame.
Literally the first line of the second paragraph. Did you even read it?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:07:08 No.32570668 Report

Quoted By:

>>32569526

>Non-Overused Pokemon should be labeled as OverUsed

anon...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:10:34 No.32570694 Report

Quoted By: >>32571334

>>32568416
Nah, smogon is still pretending people use Scolipede as a "fast sweeper"

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:16:59 No.32570726 Report

Quoted By: >>32570742

>>32568392
>complaining about bp in gen iv would immediately out you as a shitter who was bad at teambuilding because you refused to slot phazing and/or taunt
>these shitters are now a hefty portion of every tier council
disgust.jpg

yet again ill ask the question WHY IS SPEED BOOST NOT BANNED UNDER THE MOODY CLAUSE
passive boosting is fucking broken and its the only problem with this move that also has a huge number of viable uses outside of snowball boosting teams, which you are completely deleting by banning the move over the ability
>but muh shitmon viability
did that fucking stop them for a goddamn SECOND when they banned moody, was a single goddamn person concerned with octillery dropping in viability because they were banning his best ability and only niche
what takes priority, the hundreds of pokemon with bp access no longer being able to use it or two shitmon going from bad to worse

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:19:15 No.32570742 Report

Quoted By: >>32570809

>>32569411
This is not entirely true, as there are some stallbreakers, such as Heatran, Choice Band Tyranitar and Taunt Koko, that would have a very good matchup against stall if it weren't for Dugtrio.

>>32570726
Moody wasn't banned because it was automatic, it was banned because it was random and could raise evasion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:29:49 No.32570809 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570742
evasion isnt the reason moody is banned or they wouldve covered accupressure as well, especially after the tons of shitters complaining about it after getting memed on by showderp
its banned because you can use protect to get boosts, ie passive boosting, which is the entire reason speed boost is fucking busted as well
like its the exact same idea, and speed boosting is even worse than evasion because it invalidates checks and guarantees escapes from situations by just hitting a max priority protection every time youre at risk of being outsped
rather than just forcing gambles, it actually creates no-win scenarios where losing a turn can lose you the entire game due to retarded out of control snowballing ability

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:30:53 No.32570814 Report

Quoted By:

My opinion is that Smogon really is afraid of Baton Pass shenanigans and overall doesn't want to confront it, otherwise, they would have done something to bypass all this shit a long time ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:34:46 No.32570835 Report

Quoted By: >>32570907

>something used haze
This hard counters Baton Pass. Easy peasy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:48:41 No.32570907 Report

Quoted By: >>32571010 >>32571335

>>32570835
Except it does not, at all? At the very best it is a soft counter.
Imagine this scenario
Round 1
>Scolipede is sent out, alternatively Scolipede has already been out and has already gotten a boosts
>Switch in Haze user
>Scolipede's Speed Boost activated
Round 2
>Scolipede baton passes to a pokémon that can counter the Haze user
>use Haze as intended, you have done no damage to the opposing team and you're essentially giving the next round to the opponent for free due to him having a counter on the field
At best you neutralize the boost, you do not do any meaningful damage to the Baton Passer nor the one receiving the boost, and you're left in a bad position.
Unaware users are the only guaranteed counter, and only three of them are somewhat useful.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 18:54:48 No.32570947 Report

Quoted By:

>banning anything
FUCKING RETARDED
Smogon council lacks critical thinking or they're just too fucking lazy to think of different strats.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 19:07:41 No.32571010 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570907
it's also worth mentioning hazing gives them a free turn to set up a sub, and most hazers are too weak to break it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 19:16:42 No.32571043 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568630
>strawmanning

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 19:30:53 No.32571116 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568574

It's incredible how you still manage to pop up in every Smogon thread for a year now, Bonnieposter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 19:35:21 No.32571140 Report

Quoted By: >>32571361 >>32571384

So Stealth Rock which is massively overcentralising and negates a vast swathe of pokemon is fine.

But a move that requires a team revolved around it, has multiple common counters and is beatable by a wide variety of other means, needs to be banned?

Every generation and Smogon makes decisions that are not consistent with anything or any kind of baseline, they just ban stuff they can't play against, keep stuff they like, and cannot concede that if they want to beat strong strats they will have to rely on pokemon that aren't also strong in 12 different other ways.

We're on Gen 7 and they still don't get it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:07:14 No.32571334 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570694Z aqua tail Scolipede is a legit set that's very good. Before ban pass became super popular Scolipede was B+ in the viability ranking on the merit of that set alone

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:07:20 No.32571335 Report

Quoted By:

>>32570907

Unaware mons lose to BP. Every variant of BP has a Stored Power user designed to fuck over stall and Unaware mons, relying solely on Unaware will lose you the game 100%.

Ho3n !R590kKJjDY

Ho3n !R590kKJjDY Sat 20 May 2017 20:08:59 No.32571346 Report

Quoted By: >>32571451

>>32568392
Top ten OU fag here.

Baton pass as it is right now is SO neutered, and by no way needs the entire chopping block. Any team can deal with it, and it's even arguably worse than the trick room teams running around.
In my experienced opinion, it needs NO change.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:11:08 No.32571361 Report

Quoted By:

>>32571140
Complaining about Stealth Rock just proves that you have no grasp of singles. Every battle would be a 100 turn switch fest. It is the only thing that prevents stall teams and volt-turn cores from being utterly broken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:15:31 No.32571384 Report

Quoted By: >>32571392 >>32571696

>>32571140
Smogon actually did once a legit thread about banning SR, and it was fuckin' glorious.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:17:13 No.32571392 Report

Quoted By:

>>32571384
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/can-we-talk-about-stealth-rock.3585730/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:24:56 No.32571433 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568401

Baton Pass was already banned below OU. It's already dead. Banded w/ Inflitrator is kind of cool at least.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:27:04 No.32571451 Report

Quoted By:

>>32571346
>you should listen to me because I say so!

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:42:55 No.32571533 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568392
>being an incredible pivot is all Shedinja can do nowadays
>all thanks to BP
The poor thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 20:51:54 No.32571588 Report

Quoted By:

>>32568431
Link?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 21:10:14 No.32571674 Report

Quoted By:

There's so much miss informarion Usually, when you think something is obvious and wonder why other people are not also seeing it, it's because it's doesn't work. For the record I'll be addressing both defense passing, mew passing iron defense, and speed passing, passing speed boost with Scolipede.
>>Unaware Pokémon
Sounds good in theory until you realize that every baton pass team has either a Espeon or Manaphy. Espeon can break every unaware Pokemon with store power and Manaphy with rain dance or Z moves. Not mention Mega Mawile and Mega Heracross are popular baton pass recipients
>>Haze
First of all Mew run taunt so your not stopping it. Secondly haze is a completely passive way of temporary stopping Baton pass. Yeah you remove boost but your giving up all the momentum and giving me a free switch into one of my Pokémon that probably hit absurdly hard since it's baton pass. Finally if take a look at all the Pokémon that can actually viability run haze you have Toxapex, Fini, Mantine, and Quagsire. Fini obviously loses to poison jab so that's not answer. Toxapex and Quagsire really only fit on stall. That leaves Mantine as the only decent Haze users.
>>Whirlwind/Roar
Baton pass teams run Espeon
>>Offensive pressure
This is the best way to beat baton pass. Kill the passer or don't give the recipient a chance to set up. Problem is that Scolipede is fast and always run Protect your never going to get an attack off against it and defense passing teams usually have dual screens support so your not killing the passer. The incoming are specifically designed to be as fat as possible. They usually have Sitrus or pinch berries, weakness reducing berries, psychic or misty speed, or a Air balloon.
Obviously baton pass isn't unbeatable and stuff like haze and phrasing can work depending on the team but don't act like baton pass players aren't aware of their weakness and don't design there teams specifically to avoid them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 21:14:49 No.32571696 Report

Quoted By:

>>32571384
Best part was they actually agreed to give the guy his own ladder in the future to try and prove his point but got pissy and lost his one chance.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 21:19:25 No.32571712 Report

Quoted By: >>32571722

>>32568433
>>32568445
>>32568512
>>32568574
>>32568583
>>32568586
>>32568630
>>32568953
>>32569525
>>32569702
samefagging bonnie

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 20 May 2017 21:21:03 No.32571722 Report

Quoted By:

>>32571712
Yeah, pretty obvious. Don't reply though, it only encourages him.

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