/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #33140121

[26 / 3 / ?]

26KiB, 400x400, 4742ea383a48cbb54b9f1be7d81ac71b.jpg

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 04:14:01 No.33140121 View View Reply Original Report

so /vp/ i've been trying to come up with a formula to calculate best ev spreads for bulky attackers. i came up with
(18900/(2*defbase+36 +y) + 2)/(2*hpbase +141 + x)
for natural nature and
(18900/((2*defbase+36 +y)*1.1) + 2)/(2*hpbase +141 + x)
for boosting nature.
x is hp evs, y is def evs and also y=256-x

problem is, i found that the minimum of both those functions are the same regardless of nature. what did i miss?

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 04:38:33 No.33140242 Report

Quoted By:

bump

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 04:41:14 No.33140252 Report

Quoted By: >>33140312

>>33140121
I know it seems you put a lot of effort into this, but this is really stupid. EV spreads are very much dependent on the Pokemon you're accounting for. As such, there is no catch-all optimal EV spread.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 04:52:25 No.33140312 Report

Quoted By: >>33140337 >>33140473

>>33140252
thats why i included 'defbase' and 'hpbase'. those change by the pokemon.
for example, solrock formula would look, after taking the individual stats into account, like this
(18900/(196 +y) + 2)/(261 + x)
or, after substituing y for 256-x
(18900/(452-x) + 2)/(261 + x)
i find the minimum location for this formula via some online plotter and than i see that
x=104
y= 152
but those resuts stay the same even for
(18900/((452-x)*1.1) + 2)/(261 + x)
which is why i made this thread.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 04:58:41 No.33140337 Report

Quoted By: >>33140349

>>33140312
What I had in mind to begin with was Speed, which I don't see you accounting for.

For example,
Mawile-Mega (F) @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Thunder Punch
- Fire Fang
- Sucker Punch
is my Mega Mawile spread, for outrunning all defensive Rotom-W I'd expect to run into. Bulk isn't always the focus. Azumarill abides by this idea of picking a speed tier first and foremost before deciding bulk as well. As do many others.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:01:52 No.33140349 Report

Quoted By: >>33140377

>>33140337
im talking about BULKY attackers.
ofc, the more you put into speed the less youd have for other stats. thats why i used 'y' instead of outright '256-x', because, deppending on evs you spend on other things, you might have less than 256 evs to joggle between hp and def/spd.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:08:36 No.33140377 Report

Quoted By: >>33140410

>>33140349
Those /are/ bulky attackers. Are you talking about walls?

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:15:10 No.33140410 Report

Quoted By: >>33140480

>>33140377
walls are just 252hp/252def, nothing hard there.
and that mawile tough it got bulk, is more reliant on its speed. if you only spare 36evs for bulk you can hardly call the build 'bulky'.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:28:00 No.33140473 Report

Quoted By: >>33140493

>>33140312
Just checked the math, but your equation could be approximated to
C * 1/((D-x)(H+x)) for neutral nature and
C/(1.1) * 1/((D-x)(H+x)) for boosting nature.
The derivative is essentially C/(1 or 1.1) * (2x -m)=0 where solving for x leads to the same thing. The + 2 makes little difference. Your example has about 101.98 for neutral and 102.6 for boosting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:29:17 No.33140480 Report

Quoted By: >>33140568

>>33140410
Not true, walls are very much dependent on what you want to wall and what speed tier you want to hit. Like for Porygon2, you'd make the compromise to go 248 HP 220 Def 40 SpD Calm if you want to handle several threats like Life Orb Tapu Koko, Specs Greninja, Banded Zygarde, and Mega Mawile at the same time. Deciding to go Calm with little SpDef over Bold with more SpDef is one of the facets you have to be able to consider.
That's what players typically do. You put the rest in HP unless you want to live some move from a specific Pokemon, which you can shift EVs from HP to Def for. That's the other thing -- you want to be able to account for move variety, which a formula doesn't accommodate for in outputting EVs.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:32:47 No.33140493 Report

Quoted By: >>33140558

>>33140473
i rather it be as accurate as i can so i won't drop the +2
still it can't be that its best to put 100/104 into hp evs for BOTH normal and boosting nature. i think something more fundemental is wrong with my formula but i don't know what.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:44:02 No.33140558 Report

Quoted By: >>33140591 >>33140593

>>33140493

the thing fundamentally wrong with your formula is it doesn't fucking do anything

for bulky attackers you put the EVs you need to hit your speed tier, you put the EVs in your offenses to get the OHKO/2HKOs you need, and then you put the rest in HP. this will be unique for every specific pokemon and will relate to the specific spreads, types, and commonly seen movesets of the pokemon you specifically want to beat ie. there is no "optimal" formula because there are a million things to consider you dipshit

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:45:53 No.33140568 Report

Quoted By: >>33140591

>>33140480
>mega mawile
>wall

i understnd you want to sacrifice some stat points to handle specific threats, but im only talking about overall bulk. if you only put in hp you will have mixed bulk, which is overall more fragile.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:52:00 No.33140591 Report

Quoted By: >>33140615

>>33140568
I didn't say Mega Mawile was a wall. What the hell does overall bulk mean? If it's a bulky attacker you're not necessarily always going to be investing in Def or SpD anyway. The times you do are based on Damage Calc instances where you're close to affecting the rate of a 2HKO, OHKO, etc.

>>33140558
Thank you, someone else can easily point out how futile this is too.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:52:32 No.33140593 Report

Quoted By: >>33140693

>>33140558

thats why i made it x and y. x is hp evs and y is 'available evs'-x. this is done to make sure the evs i invest in bulk will have the maximum effectiveness, after spending the rest in speed/attack.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 05:57:28 No.33140615 Report

Quoted By: >>33140653

>>33140591
again, i understand that you shape your evs according to the meta but im trying for overall bulk. its good that you know which pokemons you gonna end up fighting but thats not what this thread is about. you think the only good attacking startegy is fast & furious? gfy. if you have nothing to say about the formula itself kindly leave.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:06:22 No.33140653 Report

Quoted By: >>33140674

>>33140615
I asked you what you're even trying to say by overall bulk. Bulk is relative to the mon you're accounting for which is why accounting for the meta is relevant. If all you're doing is maximize HP and Def/SpD at the same time given their constraints with respect to one another, that's not the "best ev spreads" at all like you said in the OP which is what I'm trying to tell you.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO e2d6c4b109e9da67d984db10843e92a2.jpg, 92KiB, 1047x696

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:09:16 No.33140674 Report

Quoted By:

>>33140653
bulk has nothing to do with the meta. its just how resiliant the pokemon is against attacks. and when i said 'best ev spreads' i meant about spreading the evs between def/spd and hp, sorry if that was not clear enough.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:11:08 No.33140693 Report

Quoted By: >>33140737

>>33140593

You maximize overall bulk by adding as close to 252 HP EVs as you have available, and then if you still have leftover EVs, adding them to your weaker defense until they level out.

But nobody does that because hitting specific numbers is far more valuable than your completely asinine and useless idea of "overall bulk".

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:17:56 No.33140737 Report

Quoted By: >>33140769

>>33140693
thats not true. raising the weaker def is more effective than raising hp for overall bulk, tough its also important to raise hp. generaly speaking, in mixed bulk you try to equlize def and spdef.
in overall physical bulk you go for def and in overall special bulk you go for spd.
>hitting specific numbers
again, its good you know which pokemons you gonna face, but there IS value in knowing which spread will bring the most overall survivability.

also, mixed bulk is generally fragile and its bettr to focus on either physical bulk or special bulk.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:24:56 No.33140769 Report

Quoted By: >>33140822

>>33140737
What you're essentially calculating is Damage/HP or (constant/Defense)/HP. The issue is the formula only gives you the optimal bulk for a specific type of attack The optimal spread of evs between def/spd and hp is going to be different for all attacks. In the example above you essentially found the optimal hp/spd spread given 256 available stat points for a Solrock taking on a non-stab thunderbolt from a mon with 250 sp attack. Finding the most overall survivability would require you to change 18900.
Also, x should be from 0 to 64 since it's EV/4

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:27:09 No.33140776 Report

Quoted By:

>it's another /vp/ doing cool competitive calcs and stuff thread
my type of comfy. have a bump, op.

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:44:10 No.33140822 Report

Quoted By: >>33140830

>>33140769

i tried changing the 18900. the damage changes, but the optimal x stays the same.

> x should be from 0 to 64
oh
yeah thats defintily a mistake on my part.
tht means y is actually 65-x

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO en.plot.png, 3KiB, 610x633

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:45:12 No.33140830 Report

Quoted By:

>>33140822
forgot my pic

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd

Thoughtless Celestial !!Mw3JLMISabd Fri 28 Jul 2017 06:55:56 No.33140877 Report

Quoted By: >>33140918

well gtg

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 28 Jul 2017 07:09:18 No.33140918 Report

Quoted By:

>>33140877
If you do come back, x should be 0 to 63 and y is 63-x.
You can plug this into wolframalpha
find min (1000/((236+63-x))* (1.1) + 2)/(341 + x) from 0 to 63.
Changing the constant does give different values for x. The above is mew taking on a very weak attack. With neutral nature x=44 which is 76 evs,. With boosting nature x=40 which is 60 evs. You will have to change 263 and 341 with 31 iv and 0 ev stats. Assuming you have more ev constraints, you can reduce 63. I'll still say what you are doing is useless.

Capcode	All Only User Posts Only Verified Posts Only Moderator Posts Only Manager Posts Only Admin Posts Only Developer Posts Only Founder Posts
Show Posts	All Only With Images Only Without Images Only Spoiler Images Only Non-Spoiler Images
Deleted Posts	All Only Deleted Posts Only Non-Deleted Posts
Ghost Posts	All Only Ghost Posts Only Non-Ghost Posts
Post Type	All Only Sticky Threads Only Opening Posts Only Reply Posts
Results	All Grouped By Threads
Order	Latest Posts First Oldest Posts First

On these archives

Your latest searches