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89KiB, 1708x1288, Steelix.jpg

Were the Steel and Dark types well designed?

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:33:59 No.34274985 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>34275007 >>34275148 >>34275409 >>34275470 >>34276210 >>34276228 >>34278048 >>34278327 >>34281452 >>34282671

Particularly with regard to gen 2 does /vp/ think that they did what they should have. For example, did they help weaken Psychic and strengthen Fighting? Could this have been done better?

Personally I think that they did a pretty good job, but to this day I still wonder why they made Steel counter Ice and Rock and why they made it weak to Fire and Ground. What were they trying to balance for?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:35:29 No.34275003 Report

Quoted By: >>34275057

Steel should still resist Dark

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:35:42 No.34275007 Report

Quoted By: >>34275017 >>34278125 >>34282848

>>34274985
Steel remains the most broken type in the game to this day.
Dark is fine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:36:43 No.34275017 Report

Quoted By: >>34275039

>>34275007
>steel
>broken
nice meme

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:38:33 No.34275039 Report

Quoted By: >>34275062 >>34275065

>>34275017
t. steelfag

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:40:21 No.34275057 Report

Quoted By: >>34275228 >>34278117

>>34275003
dark is resisted by dark, fighting and fairy now, meanwhile the only thing that can check ghost-type attacks now are dark and normal

The only reason people don't call Ghost broken now is because most of them are mediocre and the ones that aren't, like M-Sabeleye, don't really use Ghost-type moves that often.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:40:37 No.34275062 Report

Quoted By: >>34275073

>>34275039
t. bad player

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:40:47 No.34275065 Report

Quoted By: >>34275083 >>34275095

>>34275039
he's completely right.
it's weak to some of the most common types in the game, and often paired with rock, making it even more of a cinch for fighting types.
it's not remotely broken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:41:27 No.34275073 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275062
nice meme

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:41:32 No.34275074 Report

Quoted By: >>34275148 >>34275254 >>34276222 >>34282581

Oh hey, Bublapedia has comments on this.
>Defensively, Steel types are considered to be one of the best types of Pokémon to use. In Generation II, the Steel type was created to balance out the previously overpowered Normal and Psychic types, as both types are resisted by Steel.
>overpowered Normal
What the fuck? How was Normal overpowered in gen 1? Sure, it had good mons and good moves, but it wasn't broken, it was just common.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:42:29 No.34275083 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275065
>it's weak to some of the most common types in the game
they're common because of steel's dominance

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:43:31 No.34275095 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275065
>it's weak to some of the most common types in the game
Those being? I must've been playing too much Crystal and Emerald recently.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:48:08 No.34275148 Report

Quoted By:

>>34274985

No. They could have easily tweaked the type chart as it was. Dark and Steel were added to attempt to balance issues. They solved issues while creating their own. Why not just make Bug and ghost resist psychic? Make Ice and rock resist dragon.

>>34275074
Hyperbeam, crit rates, special stat and generally good move pools. Steel wasn't added to fix normals issue though, all those were handled separately.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:54:07 No.34275214 Report

Quoted By: >>34278105

Dumb question, but just why did they make Steel types so damn tanky?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:55:27 No.34275228 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275057
Ghost also has low powered moves compared to other types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 22:59:26 No.34275254 Report

Quoted By: >>34275283

>>34275074
Lol, Tauros was the king of Gen I.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 23:00:11 No.34275262 Report

Quoted By:

Steel types have some of the best designs.

Dark types have some of the worst.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 23:02:26 No.34275283 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275254
Point absolutely taken.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 23:04:30 No.34275308 Report

Quoted By: >>34278629

I've always found it weird how the type chart for Dark was clearly not made with them tanking in mind, yet we have pokemon like Umbreon who are nothing but tanks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 23:14:04 No.34275409 Report

Quoted By: >>34275441

>>34274985
steel no
dark yeah

dark is basically how fairy shouldve been, granting a unique immunity to an offensively strong type while its weaknesses buff underused typings
but steel is and has always been FULL retard, the normal resist notwithstanding since that was done in good faith and not forced to fit a "theme"

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 23:16:50 No.34275441 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275409
To be fair, all Dark has ever done is help to correct the type imbalances in gen 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2017 23:19:41 No.34275470 Report

Quoted By: >>34277697 >>34277793

>>34274985
Fairy is more balanced than Steel or Dark.

Dragonfags and Sinnohfoeti will complain, but they're wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 00:38:18 No.34276210 Report

Quoted By: >>34277707 >>34277765

>>34274985
>did they help weaken Psychic and strengthen Fighting? Could this have been done better?
Yes, of course. One resists Psychic-type moves but also Normal-type moves, while the other one has immunity towards the Psychic-type, and both are weak to the Fighting-type.

It helped to balance the game, but the real problem with the Dark-type was that before Gen 4 using Dark-type Pokémon was a bad idea because most of them had a higher Attack stat with Houndoom being the only one with high Sp. Attack stat, and even then it was used only because it was a Fire-type.

Also Gen 2 only had 6 Steel-types and Dark-types, with the only viable Dark-type being Houndoom. (Read again, ONLY VIABLE DARK-TYPE. Tyranitar is also a Dark-type but it was used because it was a Rock-type with good stats)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 00:39:43 No.34276222 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275074
Normal was the pre-fairy dragon of genwun. Only a few mons resisted it and those mons could be beaten by coverage options.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 00:41:12 No.34276228 Report

Quoted By:

>>34274985
They were poorly designed until gen 4 gave them enough tools to distinguish them flavorwise.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:38:52 No.34277697 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275470
>Fairy is more balanced than dark

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:39:55 No.34277707 Report

Quoted By: >>34277748 >>34277765

>>34276210
>Tyranitar being used for its typing
As you said, it was used because stats and movepool, not because it was Rock or Dark

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:41:09 No.34277722 Report

Quoted By: >>34280555

Steel is strong against ice and rock because of pickaxes and chisels, I've thought. But I might be wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:44:29 No.34277748 Report

Quoted By: >>34277765

>>34277707
It was used for STAB Pursuit and its Rock-typing made it a good check to some Snorlax sets.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:46:30 No.34277765 Report

Quoted By:

>>34276210
>>34277707
>>34277748
>It wasn't used for its typing, it was used for its STAB Pursuit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:50:46 No.34277793 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275470
>being THIS delusional
>r*ddit spacing
you have to go back Kaloshitter

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:50:58 No.34277796 Report

Quoted By: >>34277800

better designed than fairy

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:51:44 No.34277800 Report

Quoted By:

>>34277796
Dark yes, steel hell no.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 03:54:53 No.34277820 Report

Quoted By: >>34277844 >>34277846 >>34278405

>Shit offensively
>Everyone knows earthquake
>Steel is somehow broken

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:00:29 No.34277844 Report

Quoted By:

>>34277820
love this meme

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:00:35 No.34277846 Report

Quoted By: >>34277917

>>34277820
what is skarmory and Scizor

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:10:48 No.34277917 Report

Quoted By:

>>34277846
>Type Has Flaws
>Flaws make things completely unusable

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:25:32 No.34278048 Report

Quoted By: >>34280573

>>34274985
>I still wonder why they made Steel counter Ice
In Japan Blizzard was broken enough to warrant the gutting ice got.
Imagine if every time Scald procced its infamous 30% burn instead of burning it caused instant death.
That's what Blizzard did in the Red and Green versions due to how freezing worked (It wouldn't thaw unless hit by a fire move so you'd essentially be one mon down)
Sure, they lowered the freeze chance to 10% by the time the international releases came out and subsequent generations nerfed both Blizzard and the freeze mechanics but Gamefreak's nerfing policy has always been to gut whatever enters their shit list with no chance for appeal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:31:52 No.34278105 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275214
What do you expect from a metal?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:32:46 No.34278117 Report

Quoted By: >>34281872

>>34275057
Who gives a shit about balance? Steel is meant to be the ultimate defensive typing so fuck off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:33:49 No.34278125 Report

Quoted By: >>34278476 >>34280564

>>34275007
>broken
>weak to Ground and Fighting two of the most spammed coverage types in the game

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:47:01 No.34278254 Report

Quoted By: >>34280577

>why they made it weak to Fire
I'm assuming because of smelting, I guess? I mean, a lot of Fire types in-universe are said to be ridiculously hot so I guess it would make sense they could melt metals? That's my own headcanon at least

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:55:17 No.34278327 Report

Quoted By: >>34278342

>>34274985

steel would have been okay if they kept it as a "broken type but only given to shitmon" theme and only gave it to forretress, magnemite/ton, steelix, and scizor. Basically could have been used to fix a lot of previously bad pokemon by giving them unique steel evolutions.
Skarmory and everything past gen 2 was a mistake though

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:56:16 No.34278342 Report

Quoted By: >>34278354

>>34278327
>Scizor is shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 04:57:01 No.34278354 Report

Quoted By:

>>34278342
In gen2 he was.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 05:02:53 No.34278405 Report

Quoted By: >>34278455

>>34277820
Fairy makes it better. They should lose hitting Ice super effectively to compensate.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 05:09:22 No.34278455 Report

Quoted By: >>34278492

>>34278405
They got rid of two resists to compensate.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 05:11:19 No.34278476 Report

Quoted By: >>34280564

>>34278125
Those are common precisely because steel is broken

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 05:12:39 No.34278492 Report

Quoted By: >>34278513

>>34278455
fairy resist > dark resist
losing ghost was a shame though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 05:14:37 No.34278513 Report

Quoted By:

>>34278492
Dark resist is pretty fucking valuable now though. It got a bit tamer with Z-Crystals around but Knock Off is still turbo aids.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 05:28:54 No.34278629 Report

Quoted By: >>34280535

>>34275308
U mean wall?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:00:52 No.34280535 Report

Quoted By: >>34280542

>>34278629
Maybe, am I wrong to call Umbreon a tank?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:01:34 No.34280542 Report

Quoted By: >>34281969

>>34280535
Not really. Wall and tank are quite interchangeable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:04:29 No.34280555 Report

Quoted By:

>>34277722
But what about from a gameplay point of view? Why did they give Steel those weaknesses?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:07:00 No.34280564 Report

Quoted By: >>34281428

>>34278125
>>34278476
being a rockfag is suffering

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:09:43 No.34280573 Report

Quoted By: >>34281836

>>34278048
>In the Japanese versions of the Generation I core series games, Blizzard had a 30% chance of freezing. The chance was lowered to 10% for Pokémon Yellow's Colosseum 2, the Stadium games, and all international Generation I games.
Oh wow, I didn't know that. But why did they add another nerf in Gen 2? After al, even Jap Gen 2 had the international Blizzard nerf.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:10:56 No.34280577 Report

Quoted By: >>34282095

>>34278254
But why did they do that from a gameplay point of view? Why was it good to give Fire this buff?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 11:18:57 No.34280593 Report

Quoted By: >>34281451

So lets see if I understand this.

Dark types:
>SE against and immune to Psychic because Psychic was overpowered in Gen 1.
>1/2 to and from Dark because that just makes sense
>Takes SE hits from Fight and does half damage to Fight types because Fight was in serious need of a buff.
>Takes SE hits from Bug because Bug needed a buff

As for its 1/2 damage to Steel, I can't see the justification for that. After that however there's how the type interacts with Ghost. Does anyone here know why they made it SE against Ghost and take half damage from it?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 14:26:24 No.34281428 Report

Quoted By:

>>34280564
Only in gen 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 14:27:15 No.34281433 Report

Quoted By: >>34281831

Steel typing is broken
Dark is very poorly defined as a type
Fairy is both

New types were a mistake

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 14:30:25 No.34281451 Report

Quoted By:

>>34280593
what kind of evil person fears the dead?

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 24fafbc3b29d50891d3b3d66c12464f0 (...).jpg, 109KiB, 736x1040

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 14:30:31 No.34281452 Report

Quoted By: >>34281887

>>34274985
FUCK YEAH STEELIX

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 15:48:18 No.34281831 Report

Quoted By:

>>34281433
>Dark is very poorly defined as a type
Go on?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 15:48:45 No.34281836 Report

Quoted By: >>34281940

>>34280573
>Oh wow, I didn't know that. But why did they add another nerf in Gen 2? After al, even Jap Gen 2 had the international Blizzard nerf.
Because when Gamefreak wants something to stop being good, they overkill it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 15:53:20 No.34281872 Report

Quoted By: >>34282223

>>34278117
>Who gives a shit about balance?
any sane person who wants to play a good game

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 15:55:23 No.34281887 Report

Quoted By:

>>34281452
seeing a cute girl summoning a big ass steelix as her last pokemon made me wtf as a kid. i got destroyed

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 16:04:14 No.34281940 Report

Quoted By:

>>34281836
*cries in gale wings*

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 16:09:53 No.34281969 Report

Quoted By:

>>34280542
Except there is a difference. A wall will just sit there and take damage while slowly killing you with status. A tank can take damage and then hit you hard in return.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 16:27:47 No.34282095 Report

Quoted By: >>34282306

>>34280577
because fire types in gen 1 were almost all irrelevant

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 16:48:03 No.34282223 Report

Quoted By: >>34282297

>>34281872
This. Picking the low hanging fruit to illustrate this point: Ice types. Ice types not only are weak defensively against some of the most common attacking types in the series but their ONE niche they had to call their own, killing dragons, was taken away by Fairies who do their job better. And even then most Water types, one of the most versatile types in the series, can learn Ice type moves. So what reason do you EVER have to use Ice types?

It sucks because it doesn't just affect competitivefags. If your favorite Pokemon happened to be an Ice type then you would end up taking GF's dick up your ass from Earthquake, one of the most common moves in the series, and you just have to take it or stop using Ice types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 16:57:29 No.34282297 Report

Quoted By: >>34282323

>>34282223
>ice is literally the most fragile common solid substance on earth
>WHY IS ICE SO WEAK?????!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 16:59:16 No.34282306 Report

Quoted By: >>34283655

>>34282095
Wasn't that just because the Pokemon themselves were bad, rather than the type?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 17:00:59 No.34282323 Report

Quoted By: >>34282358

>>34282297
Okay? So then what exactly is Ice type supposed to do? Because it doesn't live long enough to be hyper offensive to match its pitiful defenses. And its offensive abilities are shared by Water types who have every tool under the Sun.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 17:04:59 No.34282358 Report

Quoted By: >>34282503

>>34282323
It supposed to be shit anon deal with it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 17:22:52 No.34282503 Report

Quoted By:

>>34282358
thgey could just make fast attacking mons instead of all the tanky ones. the few fast ice mons are usually good

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 17:34:29 No.34282581 Report

Quoted By:

>>34275074
Normal was broken as fuck thanks to Tauros and Kangaskhan.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO download (2).png, 319B, 150x150

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 17:48:38 No.34282671 Report

Quoted By: >>34282865

>>34274985
>why they made steel counter ice and rock
pic related

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 18:13:57 No.34282848 Report

Quoted By: >>34283696

>>34275007
Strong =/= broken

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 18:16:03 No.34282865 Report

Quoted By: >>34283360

>>34282671
I think Steel is fine but if I had to nerf it I'd make it weak to ice desu. Or atleast make it neutral.

It'd make the most sense

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 19:08:11 No.34283360 Report

Quoted By:

>>34282865
Wow, that actually seems pretty legit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 19:40:08 No.34283655 Report

Quoted By: >>34284306

>>34282306
A mix of both.
Fire was downright a hindrance to have on your team because if you froze something and used a fire move on it, you'd thaw it out and you were better off having something frozen.
On top of that Water was an insanely good type as well, with pokemon that had far better options than fire. Rock was also very common due to how strong Zapdos, Jolteon and Normal types were.
Then finally fire types in general had a mediocre speed tier (Charizard being the fastest) and awful movepools. Steel type was a blessing for fire types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 19:46:28 No.34283696 Report

Quoted By:

>>34282848
Nice meme

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 20:44:10 No.34284306 Report

Quoted By: >>34284315

>>34283655
Shit, that makes perfect sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 20:45:01 No.34284315 Report

Quoted By: >>34284744

>>34284306
For the record, fire did not resist ice either until gen2, so they really wanted the type to be viable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 25 Nov 2017 21:24:50 No.34284744 Report

Quoted By:

>>34284315
>so they really wanted the type to be viable
Lets face it, they've still screwed it up. I'll always pick the Water starter, but now that you've mentioned it I've always struggled to be able to tell if Fire actually sucks or if everything else is just better.

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Were the Steel and Dark types well designed?