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Power and Speed creeps

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 19:21:53 No.37260939 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>37261318 >>37261380 >>37261448 >>37261503 >>37261652 >>37263387 >>37263726 >>37265301 >>37265302 >>37267241

This is a serious problem that needs fixing in Pokémon. How would you go about it?

Alola tried to do this by making everyone slow, but that's didn't pan out.
>43 speed
Honestly? I think I'd just go around lowering Pokémon's Speed and attack stats en masse. If it were up to you, which Pokémon's BST would get the axe?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 20:57:25 No.37261318 Report

Quoted By: >>37261333 >>37261336

>>37260939
A move that punishes fast mons would be better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:02:16 No.37261333 Report

Quoted By: >>37261371 >>37261492

>>37261318
>what is gyro ball

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:03:05 No.37261336 Report

Quoted By: >>37261371 >>37263375

>>37261318
Trick room?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:10:20 No.37261371 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261333
Barely any pokemon can use it well and it's a commonly resisted type
>>37261336
Gimmick that doesn't last long enough

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:12:59 No.37261380 Report

Quoted By: >>37261486

>>37260939
Have Gen 8 just retcon everything, and rebalance everyone's fucking stats.
It's easy.
Leave old games alone, but anything transferred to a new Switch game or a Gen 8 in general game, gets altered.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:31:10 No.37261448 Report

Quoted By: >>37261494

>>37260939
I'd make an item that automatically sets up Trcik Room and watch the world burn

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:38:06 No.37261486 Report

Quoted By: >>37262801 >>37263397

>>37261380
">"Kartana: 181 attack
Not just speed, mate

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:39:09 No.37261492 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261333
We need more clones of it for other types, both physical and special variants, and they need to be distributed widely. Imagine Vikavolt with an Electric type, special-based Gyro Ball.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:39:25 No.37261494 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261448
You madman

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:39:46 No.37261497 Report

Quoted By: >>37261510

>has 1 more speed than you
nothin personnel

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:41:05 No.37261503 Report

Quoted By: >>37261513

>>37260939
>Let's make everything in Alola slow to mitigate power creep!
>Great!
>And let's not nerf old stuff to match that power level!
>Grea--what?
>And let's add THIS FUCKING THING and a bunch of other insane legendaries and fuck it up at the very end
>.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 5GXOaTo.jpg, 150KiB, 728x546

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:42:07 No.37261510 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261497
>Posted 1 second before me posting Pheromosa

D-damn...he's fast!

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:44:22 No.37261513 Report

Quoted By: >>37261530 >>37261578 >>37262196 >>37262310 >>37265273

>>37261503
This is what I basically don't get when it comes to GF. They want to reduce the power creep, then throw in the fucking Tapus and UBs that are min-maxed to hell and back. Why even make normal Pokemon anymore? Why not just make everything on par with legendaries?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:46:37 No.37261526 Report

Quoted By:

Rather than slash-and-burning a bunch of Speed stats, I would rather introduce more effective anti-Speed synergies. Something with an auto-Trick Room ability would be cool.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:47:03 No.37261530 Report

Quoted By: >>37261547 >>37265316

>>37261513

Gamefreak balances competetive with short VGC seasons in mind and want gimmicks and strong legendary mons out the wazoo to appeal to casuals and children.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:50:19 No.37261547 Report

Quoted By: >>37262112

>>37261530
Legendaries being in VGC was a mistake. I know they're not all equal, but I'd rather blanket ban them all than let any of them in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 21:57:47 No.37261578 Report

Quoted By: >>37261605 >>37261618 >>37261622

>>37261513
To be honest, I'd sort of like that. Not necessarily like ON PAR with them, but able to hold up, you know? There's no reason any Pokemon should have a BST under 500, honestly, and that's pretty low without serious minmaxing.

I'd rather them bring up old Pokemon and slow down power creep than stop it entirely at this point and leave old pokemon in the dust. Bringing everything to a level of equality around gen 4 post garchomp ban would be great.

...God, remember when Garchomp/Salamence were banworthy? Now mence is in UU, I never thought I'd see the goddamn day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:01:56 No.37261590 Report

Quoted By: >>37263407

>auto trick room ability
>trick room extender item (also works on magic/wonder room i guess)
>make sure more than one pokemon gets this ability

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:05:52 No.37261605 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261578

Honestly, I would love it if they capped the BST for different kinds of mons. That way every mon of the same evolution tier/rarity would be comparable in the most basic of metrics.

I know it would make some mons less special, but it just means type advantage, move pool, ability, and stat distribution would matter more. Dragon should be special because it resists so many types and is primarily encountered late game, not because of a bloated BST.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:09:52 No.37261618 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261578
Honestly that is the best way to slow power creep, simply boost everything that's older in some way. They did some of that this gen with Gigalith getting Sandstream. It isn't much, but any tiny improvement could potentially go a long ways. Look at fucking Pelipper. That fucker is actually relevant.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:10:27 No.37261622 Report

Quoted By: >>37261669

>>37261578
You forgot about NFEs, they shouldnt have a bst of 500 or more

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:14:32 No.37261652 Report

Quoted By: >>37263391

>>37260939

speed is only OP on singles

>but no one cares about doubles!

here we go again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:18:00 No.37261669 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261622
Was gonna update with this and with certain Pokemon like Smeargle being fine where they are, as well. Obviously there are exceptions.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:18:43 No.37261672 Report

Quoted By: >>37261678 >>37261700

The problem with speed is that it's so binary. Having 120 attack vs 121 is negligible, but having even a single point more in speed makes all the difference

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:20:13 No.37261678 Report

Quoted By: >>37263415

>>37261672

Gamefreak could make speed be varialbe like how final damage is variable, but people would be up in arms.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 22:24:18 No.37261700 Report

Quoted By: >>37262107

>>37261672
There's no real way to fix it without adding yet another random element to the game, though. The best way to mitigate that would be to have pokemon below a certain speed tier (109, 114, etc.) have excellent things to help make up for it, like being bulkier than mons with 110 or 115 or having a gimmick that boosts them while being reliable and not chance related.

Kartana is an insane example, but having high attack really helps make up for its relatively meh speed tier. I wish they'd help out mons like Rampardos by giving it better defenses, too, it's awfully silly to be that slow AND that frail.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Dec 2018 23:59:50 No.37262060 Report

Quoted By:

I don’t see a problem buffing things like sudowoodo so it’s not trash. Nerf things like the ultra beasts, too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 00:14:08 No.37262107 Report

Quoted By: >>37262141

>>37261700
109 speed is not in the "meh speed tier" category. Are you insane?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 00:15:24 No.37262112 Report

Quoted By: >>37263446

>>37261547
Me too. Would make things much more varied as nearly all teams are 3~5 of the same legendaries. It gets old fast.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 00:23:12 No.37262141 Report

Quoted By: >>37262189

>>37262107
in 2018 it is. speedy things must be 120+.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 00:41:53 No.37262189 Report

Quoted By:

>>37262141
Was just gonna say that. Garchomp’s once “amazing” speed tier is now “decent”, according to Smogon. The days of 100 being the standard speed are long over, it’s up to above 120

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 00:44:07 No.37262196 Report

Quoted By: >>37262279 >>37263887

>>37261513
>Dude, you know what would be hilarious?
>If we made an electric type that invalidated every other offensive electric type that isn't Zekrom, or has a very specific niche like Magnezone
>Great Idea, you're promoted!

Tapu Koko was one of Game Freak's biggest mistakes, and I have no idea how they are going to go around nerfing the Tapu's for Gen 8.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 01:16:00 No.37262279 Report

Quoted By:

>>37262196
Terrains after they faint. Fixed. Koko's sp atk aint shit without a terrain up

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 01:23:43 No.37262310 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261513
>GF
>caring about balance

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 04:29:53 No.37262801 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261486
What?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 04:33:05 No.37262809 Report

Quoted By:

You can't, they really fast, really good Pokemon already exist. The only way to "fix" it is not allowing people to use old shit, or straight up changing their stats.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:23:46 No.37263375 Report

Quoted By: >>37263472

>>37261336
Situational. In singles I'd do a trick room team if I was doing multiple against someone only. Ladders or random no way.

Doubles and rotation it and Tailwind are nice. If there was a mon that auto sets up trick room upon leaving the field with an ability that could help in singles.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:29:09 No.37263387 Report

Quoted By:

>>37260939
Not enough abilities that work or benefit going second like analytic.

I suggest a new hazard called "speed bump". If set the more faster you are to the "speed limit of the move or setter (still not decided) you get life orb esque recoil.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:33:02 No.37263391 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261652
Doubles is ALL about speed control.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:39:05 No.37263397 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261486
Read the post again

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:44:16 No.37263407 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261590
>meta centralises over the trickmon
>trickmon killers necessary in every team as well as slowmon to play along trickmon
Congrats, you just lost 3 slots. Be careful what you wish for but I would be curious to see that play out to be desu with you my family.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:46:36 No.37263415 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261678
I'd rather not add even more rng, thank you very much.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 08:55:10 No.37263427 Report

Quoted By: >>37263465 >>37265326

Make weather permanent again, and give more Pokemon abilities that are weather dependent like Swift Swim, Sand Rush, and Burning Feet.

GF isn't actively trying to balance the meta, but if they had not nerfed weather, Gen VII would actually be pretty balanced considering the power creep they allowed with the UBs and Tapus.

The game isn't inherently balanced, and that has nothing to do with BST and everything to do with the mismatched type advantages. After that, you have the differences in moves and THEN the movepool disparity. And finally you have BST.

Smeargle is a great example of this: it is good at any level of the game, even Ubers and AG, because it can access every move possible, even with a bad typing and low BST.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 09:07:27 No.37263446 Report

Quoted By:

>>37262112
There was a Battle Spot ladder that banned all legendaries for 2 months. The end result was just the same 12 Pokemon abusing evasion and status.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 09:21:56 No.37263465 Report

Quoted By:

>>37263427
Snearglm isn't that amazing. It just can fill niches that don't exist so he's the equivalent of that on call guy at work you call at the last minute since no other option is available. Yeah it can work in ubers but in an extremely limited manner.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 09:25:45 No.37263472 Report

Quoted By:

>>37263375
>If there was a mon that auto sets up trick room upon leaving the field with an ability that could help in singles.

It also adds strategy to it in player dynamics.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 11:53:09 No.37263726 Report

Quoted By: >>37263952 >>37265268

>>37260939
Step one of one:

>Completely ignore competitive
The metagame can and always will, for all games, fall where it will. There is no true balance to be had no matter how hard they try. It's only when games stop caring heavily about this that they become good and vice versa - become bad when they focus on it.

Pokémon is a casual game and always has been, it shouldn't focus on the highly competitive at all. Stats should be based around where they're found in-game, at what level they evolve, lore, and overall game design intention. Nothing more. (pic extremely related)

The Ultra Beasts and the Tapu are what you get when you make competitive a focus in a game that isn't even competitive to begin with. It's your fault this shit exists. They thought they already were based on the shitty feedback of a minority.

And I say this as a compfag myself. The metagame will happen no matter what. They need to stop this garbage and just focus on making the game itself fun. You're also part of the reason we're not getting any postgame - they waste time taking competitive into consideration and then feel the need to force it as the only postgame.

I like having it as an option but it doesn't EVER make a game anything but worse to focus on PvP from multiple standpoints.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 13:39:58 No.37263856 Report

Quoted By:

BST is a terrible way to evaluate Pokemon because in any turn, only four of the possible six stats come into play:

>HP
>Attack Category
>Defense Category
>Speed

This is exactly why Hoopa-U, a 680 BST beast, is OU. An exploitable defense stat, low speed, and possibly the worst overall typing in the game have it undeplay its box legend BST. Hoopa-U is a prime example of a slow, frail, mixed attacker.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 14:03:12 No.37263887 Report

Quoted By: >>37265257

>>37262196
Raichu has a niche exclusively because of threats like Tapu Koko.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 14:32:41 No.37263952 Report

Quoted By:

>>37263726
Yeah, there is a good argument in that. Perhaps that's why older gens for competitive didn't seem so....I don't know. More interesting? I will agree, GF becoming more involved with competitive is starting to hurt the overall feeling of the games. I can see why some people are afraid to get into Pokemon games because they feel there is too big an emphasis on knowing the ins and outs of competitive. And they're not necessarily wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:30:10 No.37265257 Report

Quoted By:

>>37263887
Raichu has always had a niche, just got better with Tapu Koko. Before Koko fuck nugget came around Raichu was fucking with Thundurus.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:35:35 No.37265268 Report

Quoted By: >>37265275

>>37263726
>Stats should be based around where they're found in-game, at what level they evolve, lore, and overall game design intention. Nothing more. (pic extremely related)

That's just so limiting though.

>The Ultra Beasts and the Tapu are what you get when you make competitive a focus in a game that isn't even competitive to begin with. It's your fault this shit exists. They thought they already were based on the shitty feedback of a minority.

Really?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:36:50 No.37265273 Report

Quoted By:

>>37261513
Gamefreak clearly know how to make strong powercrept mons but definitely chooses to make the vast majority of mons shitmons. Only a few like Aegislash (which is still meant to be good) are unexpectedly better than anticipated. Gen 7 shows this with all the Tapus and most of the other legends being top tier, while everything else is balls except a few things like Pex.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:37:05 No.37265275 Report

Quoted By:

>>37265268
>You're also part of the reason we're not getting any postgame - they waste time taking competitive into consideration and then feel the need to force it as the only postgame.
There's no postgame because they are cheap and honestly pokemon post game is lacking in general even with Battle frontier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:38:22 No.37265281 Report

Quoted By:

I want to fucking maim all the tapus. especially Lele.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:43:01 No.37265301 Report

Quoted By:

>>37260939
The best solution to power creep would be a massive stat rebalance across the board. They've edited base stats of pokemon like Beedrill and Nidoking and Dugtrio in the past, so there's no reason they couldn't do something more extreme.

Also, part of the reason power creep exists in a series like Pokemon is because the roster keeps growing and growing. Average stats of a new generation of pokemon doesn't mean jack shit, because so long as 10% of those new pokemon are absolute monsters, they can just ignore all the new trash pokemon. The existence of added shitmons doesn't take away from additional strong mons.

Think about it this way. Let's say it's Gen 2. If I were making a team and wanted a bunch of high BST pseudolegendaries, there's only two to pick from (dnite and ttar) because those are the ones ones that exist yet. A gen later, I can have 4 pseudolegendaries on my team (dnite, ttar, mence, gross). Obviously I'm not saying this is how team composition/building happens by a competent player, but I'm just making a point. If there's a normal distribution of power and I have to pick 6 out of 151 mons, that's going to have a different result than picking 6 out of like 800+ mons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:43:27 No.37265302 Report

Quoted By:

>>37260939
Tie hp to speed more hp=less speed

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:48:15 No.37265316 Report

Quoted By: >>37265332

>>37261530
>99% of in-game gameplay is singles
>majority of people who play competitive play singles
>make their official competitive format doubles and balance pokemon around that

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:52:00 No.37265326 Report

Quoted By: >>37267116

>>37263427
I really liked doing interesting stuff with infinite weather like hail teams. I get that weather was far too rampant in Gen 5 and they needed to walk that back, but I really wish they did it in a way that didn't also completely destroy a bunch of pokemon/strategies that weren't broken like the politoed drizzle/swift swim teams

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO regice.jpg, 523KiB, 1589x1530

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:54:25 No.37265330 Report

Quoted By: >>37267122

Remember when Regice was the premier OU special wall, second only to Blissey? Now it's PU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:55:00 No.37265332 Report

Quoted By: >>37265343 >>37267076

>>37265316
They don't actually balance it around doubles. That's just a meme. They play dubs in official tournaments only because the games are much shorter. Even in stuff like draft leagues where you can't really build a full stall sableye squad, 6v6 singles games last forever, frequently going to the max full hour. No one wants to watch that shit, and it would literally take a week for a national tournament.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 25 Dec 2018 21:58:56 No.37265343 Report

Quoted By:

>>37265332
No one watches VGC period anyway though, to be fair. Pokemon is simply one of those things that will never work as a popular spectator sport the way fighting games or gookclick does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 26 Dec 2018 06:48:49 No.37267076 Report

Quoted By:

>>37265332
that's why you play using sims like Showdown. the actual games are too fucking slow for any kind of strategy. can you imagine if other competitive games played as slow as Pokemon?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 26 Dec 2018 07:08:16 No.37267116 Report

Quoted By:

>>37265326
>I get that weather was far too rampant in Gen 5 and they needed to walk that back

They didn't, though. The Gen VII power creep was much greater than allowing Drizzle/Drought, and there was no need to hit Sand and Hail which were fine on Tyranitar and Abomasnow up until then. And at least in BW, it was a bunch of old Pokemon who had been bad for a long time becoming dominant, instead of things that didn't exist before Gen VII.
I liked weather and it was the defining gimmick of Gen V OU, but it was a little much for that meta. But things are much worse now and could be balanced out by full-strength weather. Unfortunately, GF seems too retarded to realize this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 26 Dec 2018 07:10:49 No.37267122 Report

Quoted By:

>>37265330
No I don't actually.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 26 Dec 2018 08:06:16 No.37267241 Report

Quoted By:

>>37260939
Let it all burn
Reboot the franchise
Make a completely new (still turn-based) battle system with the mechanics redone from the ground up
Reintroduce maybe 300 old Pokemon plus 150 new ones, and completely re-stat and re-balance them for the new system. Bam, all power/speed creep erased.
The current battle system hasn't considerably evolved since Gen 3 added abilities and reworked EVs, which was 16 years ago. Even if you consider the physical-special split a major change, that was still well over a decade ago.
The gimmicks of the last few gens (Mega Evos, Z-Moves, etc) don't amount to much more than flashy bells and whistles for marketing purposes. Mega Evolutions for instance barely add anything to the game that brand new mons with the same stats/abilities wouldn't.

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