/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #43856227

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Dropping down Ubers to OU

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 16:13:46 No.43856227 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>43858788 >>43859935 >>43860172 >>43866965 >>43867638

/vp/ constantly likes to argue about which Pokemon banned to Ubers could potentially drop down to OU in a gen but the vast majority of Pokemon are realistically still too broken even if they kind of suck in Ubers.

Hoopa-Unbound in gen 6 is probably one of the few Pokemon that could actually drop down without ruining the tier. There's very few other Pokemon throughout the gens that are likely candidates.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 16:58:41 No.43856566 Report

Quoted By: >>43857102 >>43858970 >>43859986

I've gone through the Ubers lists and the only other maybe candidates right now I see are Celebi in gen 2 and Deoxys-Defense in gen 7. I also wonder if Mawile-Mega would truly be too broken in gen 6 anymore but I guess there's no Psychich Terrain, Sucker Punch is stronger, no Toxapex to pivot into non-Thunder Punch attacks etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 18:10:54 No.43857102 Report

Quoted By: >>43857122 >>43861297

>>43856566
Gen 2 Celebi would turn gen 2 into a supreme stallfest (as if gen 2's average battles go to 100 turns wasn't enough) and i'm certain nobody would enjoy dealing with Celebi doing his shit, i can give you Deo-D though, worst case scenario is that it makes hyper offensive a little more consistent.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 18:13:23 No.43857122 Report

Quoted By:

>>43857102
Yeah Celebi is one of those cases where it's probably not "broken" fundamentally in OU but would just make the tier more unfun and tedious so it probably isn't worth dropping in the first place.

Of course most tiers have other problems to deal with anyway before you would really consider dropping Ubers but still.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 18:14:47 No.43857135 Report

Quoted By: >>43857157 >>43858295

i only have 1 question, how in the heft is Blaziken still in Ubers in gen8 NatDex?
At this point, that chicken should be powercrept to hell but somehow it isn't allowed?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 18:18:39 No.43857157 Report

Quoted By: >>43857210 >>43858412

>>43857135
That offensive movepool in combination with Z-moves is still pretty ridiculous. Completely shits on offense and even bulkier teams will have a harder time dealing with it without some niche checks that might also get taken care of by a Z-move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 18:25:46 No.43857210 Report

Quoted By: >>43857800

>>43857157
That makes sense i guess

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 19:39:53 No.43857800 Report

Quoted By:

>>43857210
Yeah, some people forget that Z-moves are actually a thing in Natdex OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 20:02:31 No.43857953 Report

Quoted By: >>43858057 >>43858345

Focus Sash Cloyster.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 20:14:17 No.43858057 Report

Quoted By: >>43858318

>>43857953
What?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 20:40:19 No.43858295 Report

Quoted By:

>>43857135
Speed Boost is OP on any mon that isn't complete shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 20:42:57 No.43858318 Report

Quoted By: >>43858448

>>43858057
you heard him. focus sash cloyster.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 20:46:45 No.43858345 Report

Quoted By: >>43858632

>>43857953
Cloyster was never an Uber, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 20:55:17 No.43858412 Report

Quoted By:

>>43857157
Speed Boost was a fucking mistake.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 21:00:11 No.43858448 Report

Quoted By: >>43858498

>>43858318
Oh, I see. Cloyster with a Focus Sash. Focus Sash Cloyster.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 21:06:50 No.43858498 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858448
Oh, right. The focus sash. The focus sash for Cloyster, the focus sash chosen especially to set up Cloyster, Cloyster’s focus sash. That focus sash?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 21:26:23 No.43858632 Report

Quoted By: >>43858756

>>43858345
He is uber right now if equiped with Focus Sash + Shell Smash.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 21:44:47 No.43858756 Report

Quoted By: >>43858853

>>43858632
Is this some advanced form of bait?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 21:51:44 No.43858788 Report

Quoted By: >>43858945 >>43858964 >>43865701 >>43865714

>>43856227
Is Darkrai OK to drop down now since Dark Void is terrible?
Also Wobbufett and Wynaut in 3 and 4

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:01:32 No.43858853 Report

Quoted By: >>43859368

>>43858756
what rules are you following?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:11:03 No.43858945 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858788
No, Darkrai doesn't even need sleep moves to do well in OU. 125 speed + 135 special attack with Nasty Plot + spammable STAB move that can also flinch + coverage out of the ass for almost any potential check is still pretty rough for OU.

70/90/90 bulk is also pretty good for an offensive Pokemon, it always lives a Moonblast from defensive Clefable for example. Being able to cheese shit with Hypnosis now that Dark Void sucks is the cherry on top.

Also Z-moves in gen 7 make it even harder to deal with.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:12:40 No.43858964 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858788
Only in Natdex and only if there's no Z moves. So no real metagame.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:13:28 No.43858970 Report

Quoted By: >>43859023 >>43859089

>>43856566
Deoxys Defense might be pushing it, taunting shuckle is still cancer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:22:04 No.43859023 Report

Quoted By: >>43859043

>>43858970
>deo-d
>pushing anything
fucker didn't even make it to OU in natdex, stuck in UUBL lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:25:43 No.43859043 Report

Quoted By: >>43860005

>>43859023
That's because Mew is a direct upgrade to it now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 22:32:49 No.43859089 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858970
The way I see it is that nowadays in gen 7 hazard control and removal is much better than it was in early on in the gen when people were spamming HO with Deoxys and Bisharp and shit. There was also other cancer around that's banned to Ubers now of course.

Honestly seems like it could be managable now, I don't think enabling HO a bit more in the post-Zygarde meta is that bad. HO has been dwindling down more and more, it's somewhat rare now. Former HO staple mons like Gyarados-Mega struggle with shit like Tangrowth and obviously Zygarde itself getting banned was a big hit to the playstyle though Zygarde definitely needed to go.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 13 Jun 2020 23:14:57 No.43859368 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858853
The standard rules where Cloyster has never been banned to Ubers in any gen

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 00:29:04 No.43859935 Report

Quoted By: >>43862893

>>43856227
Smogon actually ran a Hoopa-Unbound tournament a few months ago if that interests you. I see Hoopa-U ORAS being played sometimes in the RoA tour nights too
https://www.smogon.com/forums/search/4864690/?q=hoopa-unbound&t=post&c[child_nodes]=1&c[nodes][0]=34&c[title_only]=1&o=date

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 00:38:21 No.43859986 Report

Quoted By:

>>43856566
>Celebi in gen 2
no fuck that

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 00:40:46 No.43860005 Report

Quoted By: >>43860172

>>43859043
and mew is barely clinging to OU as it is, your point?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 01:00:53 No.43860172 Report

Quoted By: >>43860215 >>43862955

>>43856227
There's a checklist for this kind of thing.
>typing
>ability
>BST spread
>movepool
>item slot
Of the Gen VII 680 BST Ubers, Palkia is probably the closest to OU material, since it doesn't have a good ability, has no way to boost its speed or special attack, has a shallow movepool with no hazards, and not enough bulk to avoid OHKOs from faster dragons.
On the other hand, it's basically a slightly buffed Kyurem, with better speed, bulk, and defensive typing. But Kyurem itself is far better on offense due to Freeze Dry and 100% accurate moves. Kyurem compresses far more utility into Freeze Dry/Earth Power than Palkia does with Hydro Pump, Thunder, and Fire Blast.
What would make Palkia problematic isn't that it could be in OU, but that it would be OU alongside other mons like Ash-Greninja, Dracovish and Kyurem. It would be fine if you swapped it out for any of those, but having them all coexist would warp the tier.
>>43860005
Smogon was close minded about keeping Deoxys-D in OU during Gen VII. The only niche it had above Mew was Spikes, and now that it's lost that and there are two bulky spikes setters, why is Deoxys-D UUBL?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 01:05:25 No.43860215 Report

Quoted By: >>43862955

>>43860172
>adding palkia makes offense stronger
I'd say all for palkia dropping in. We need a more attackier meta

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 03:27:31 No.43861297 Report

Quoted By: >>43861542 >>43861562

>>43857102
To be fair, can gen 2 possibly be any worse than it is with Snorlax?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 04:05:42 No.43861542 Report

Quoted By:

>>43861297
>To be fair, can gen 2 possibly be any worse than it is with Snorlax?
Yes very easily.
Snorlax is the only thing keeping stall in check.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 04:08:34 No.43861562 Report

Quoted By:

>>43861297
snorlax is op as fuck but it makes gen 2 great, laxless gen 2 is cancer

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:39:00 No.43862893 Report

Quoted By:

>>43859935
Yeah the Corona Leage allowed Hoopa-Unbound too which is why the gen 6 games were played in Ubers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:44:38 No.43862912 Report

Quoted By: >>43862942 >>43862944 >>43862947 >>43864999 >>43866115

I never understood why Blaziken with Speed Boost couldn't specifically get banned while Blaze is okay

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:50:42 No.43862942 Report

Quoted By: >>43862998 >>43864999

>>43862912
because then every mon would need to be tiered seperately for every ability they have and it would be an autistic mess

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:51:42 No.43862944 Report

Quoted By:

>>43862912
It makes the system way messier, Blaziken isn't the only Pokémon where you could have this kind of complex ban.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:52:20 No.43862947 Report

Quoted By: >>43862951 >>43864999

>>43862912
Same reason anticipation ferrothorn and unaware Clefable aren't allowed in UU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:53:18 No.43862951 Report

Quoted By: >>43862987 >>43864092

>>43862947
Ubers is specifically a banlist. It's created manually.
OU and UU are usage-based tiers which are created automatically.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:55:35 No.43862955 Report

Quoted By: >>43862965 >>43864833

>>43860172
>>43860215
Palkia is way too bulky for OU given how strong it is. 90/100/120 bulk is with a good typing is a bit much for OU. Its attacking movepool definitely isn't shallow either, it has strong STAB moves that hit most stuff for neutral damage plus Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Aura Sphere/Focus Blast and Power Gem. Thunder Wave is an option too

It also gets Earth Power and even Earthquake so I don't know why it gets mentioned for Kyurem but not Palkia. Freeze-Dry is the only difference, otherwise Palkia's movepool is obviously better offensively.

It's really fucking bulky as an offensive Pokemon for OU so the lack of recovery isn't exactly that big of a drawback. Could also hold Lustrous Orb to potentially avoid Life Orb recoil and still get a boost on its STAB moves. Definitely too strong for OU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 08:59:23 No.43862965 Report

Quoted By:

>>43862955
I also forgot to mention that it has 100 base speed which is pretty fast for something this strong and bulky. Spacial Rend is a no drawback 100 BP STAB move if you don't want to use Draco Meteor. Definitely keep it in Ubers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 09:05:36 No.43862987 Report

Quoted By: >>43863006 >>43864092

>>43862951
ubers is treated as a tier ever since the arrival of megaray
get with the times grandpa

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 09:10:26 No.43862998 Report

Quoted By: >>43863003 >>43864999

>>43862942
Why every mon? Why not just the ones that would be banned otherwise? Blaziken being in Ubers regardless is like if Dugtrio was banned regardless of its ability

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 09:12:34 No.43863003 Report

Quoted By: >>43863011 >>43863669

>>43862998
why should only OU have that luxury?
why shouldn't UU have access to inner focus bisharp, or sand force hippowdon, or snow cloak alola ninetales, etc?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 09:12:47 No.43863006 Report

Quoted By: >>43864092

>>43862987
A real tier is influenced by usage. Uber is still a playable banlist, it just has been given agency to make their own bans.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 09:13:25 No.43863011 Report

Quoted By:

>>43863003
it was just an example. Banned is referring to BL as well

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 11:57:30 No.43863669 Report

Quoted By: >>43864999

>>43863003
There is no actual reason, UU doesn't ban le starter chickenbro. My bro needs to be legal in OU so tiering has to more convoluted.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 13:26:42 No.43864092 Report

Quoted By:

>>43862951
>>43862987
>>43863006
Yeah Ubers is still a banlist first and also a playable tier. Those aren't contradictions. Still doesn't excuse randomly allowing Pokemon in lower tiers if they use their worse ability.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 15:37:36 No.43864833 Report

Quoted By: >>43865747 >>43866115

>>43862955
>90/100/120 bulk is with a good typing is a bit much for OU.

Dracovish also has 90/100 physical bulk with a water/dragon typing, and hits much harder with Fishous Rend. Ash-Greninja has a better offensive typing, speed, even more power than Palkia, priority and spikes.
Both of those mons also have other sets than all-out special attacker. The only niche Palkia has over other offensive waters is special bulk, but that's undermined by a defensive typing that lacks in resistances and immunities.
Freeze Dry is what bumped Kyurem from RUBL all the way to a possible suspect in OU. Even though Kyurem has Dragon Dance, it's not good enough compared to Freeze Dry which allows Kyurem no switchins.
With Palkia, if it doesn't get cucked by accuracy, it's walled by whatever it doesn't have a coverage move for. Palkia loses to Fini without Thunder, and Ferrothorn and Tangrowth without Fire Blast. It loses to Chansey without a physical move + life orb. Compare this to Dracovish who can actually kill these mons if they switch in below 60% with a single move.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 054c23fceaa69b62d7d484935fdf87c0.png, 31KiB, 197x296

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 15:56:31 No.43864936 Report

Quoted By: >>43865173 >>43865290 >>43866966

How do we make her OU/Not Shit guys? What does she need?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 16:05:27 No.43864999 Report

Quoted By: >>43865349 >>43865586

>>43862912
>>43862942
>>43862947
>>43862998
>>43863669
Can't there be a ban on Hidden Ability slots of certain Pokemon instead? This way we both get Blaze Blaziken and don't use complex bans to achieve it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 16:31:03 No.43865173 Report

Quoted By: >>43866460

>>43864936
Prankster, probably.
Prankster Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance is probably an instant ban from UU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 16:45:35 No.43865290 Report

Quoted By: >>43865549 >>43866460

>>43864936
>Grass/fairy
>fiery dance, seed flare, moonblast
>+20 defence, +20 HP, +10 spe
>replace own tempo with serene grace

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 16:52:33 No.43865349 Report

Quoted By: >>43865484

>>43864999
That's even more arbitrary because there is literally nothing separating standard and hidden abilities from a Showdown perspective. Why should Blaziken get this privilege but Dracovish, or Obstagoon in UU, should not?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:10:27 No.43865484 Report

Quoted By: >>43865546 >>43865609

>>43865349
Dracovish wasn't banned for its Hidden Ability, though. The idea is still retarded but HA Dracovish doesn't exist anywhere.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:17:14 No.43865546 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865484
You are missing the point, Dracovish was banned for a regular ability, and I was asking why Blaziken would get the privilege of being unbanned without the broken ability and Dracovish wouldn't just because Vish's broken ability does not fit under an arbitrary lore classification.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:17:23 No.43865549 Report

Quoted By: >>43866460

>>43865290
so take everything that is good from other pokemon in order to make this shitmon good. No thanks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:20:35 No.43865586 Report

Quoted By:

>>43864999
that’s still a complex ban

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:23:21 No.43865609 Report

Quoted By: >>43865730 >>43865849 >>43865872 >>43866982

>>43865484
Blaze Blaziken ban is retarded because Smogon isn't afraid to have stupid complex bans in other areas, like Baton Pass or Drizzle/Swift Swim, but they're unwilling to budge on a HA ban which is braindead easy for players in offline or wifi battles to understand.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:32:02 No.43865701 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858788
Darkrai has nearly the same bullshit strong stats Ash Greninja has, but without the drawback of needing to kill something before activating Battle Bond, and Ash Greninja is S tier alongside Mega-Metagross and G-Darmanitan. I can assure you that without Dark Void, Darkrai would rectumize the format, more so with Z-Moves and i think Darkrai learns Sludge Wave so good luck trying to wall it after a N.Plot.

But then again, most of the same arguments to keep Darkrai in Uber would apply to Ash Greninja as well (if not more because Ash Gren is faster and stronger than Darkrai) so who knows if not requiring to kill something to get on the speed tier of 125 with 135 SpAtk from the start matters.
Alternatively, revert Dark Void's nerf so Darkrai is viable in ubers again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:33:40 No.43865714 Report

Quoted By:

>>43858788
Forgot to say
The struggle mechanics make Wob 1v1's infinite because they can't outdamage lefties with struggle, that is one of the primary reasons Wobbufett (and Wynaut to a lesser extent) are banned in gen 3.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:35:30 No.43865730 Report

Quoted By: >>43865841

>>43865609
Baton Pass and rain teams are playstyles, not one particular Pokemon. If you ban specific HAs on one Pokemon, that opens the door to a huge network of complex bans on Pokemon that can realistically be used anywhere with the proper bans which is an absolutely terrible can of worms to open.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:36:47 No.43865747 Report

Quoted By: >>43865758 >>43866173

>>43864833
Your comparisons between Palkia and other Pokemon are kind of inconsistent. First off, the comparison to Kyurem is lacking because even though it did gain Freeze-Dry which made it Specs set much more viable it was also greatly helped out by the reduced dex and the much lower speed tier. In current gen 8 OU 95 speed is way better than in gen 7. It also doesn't have to worry about shit like Chansey or Magearna.

You mention Palkia losing to Chansey but a lot of special attackers that can't somehow circumvent its special defense do. A special attacker can still be broken in OU even if it can't get past Chansey. And if you really hate Chansey that much you could even run gimmicky shit like Focus Punch since Palkia actually has a good 120 base attack.

Life Orb Palkia with the combination of Hydro Pump, Spacial Rend, Thunderbolt and Fire Blast has almost no good switch-ins either and that's in a way bigger dex with may more defensive threats. I'm gonna post a list of calcs below to show it, you're mostly fine with those 4 moves though of course you also have the option to run other moves. Or an item that isn't Life Orb like a Z-Crystal.

Off the top of my head the only semi-relevant Pokemon that don't get 2HKO'd are the already mentioned Chansey, Venusaur-Mega, Gastrodon and I guess Muk-Alola.

Palkia's bulk really good bulk also helps it break past shit. For example it can easily stay in on a Tapu Fini Moonblast to finish it off. Not to mention that 100 base speed means that it's not even that slow like most other wallbreakers.

Palkia isn't exactly the most broken Uber ever but its combination of stats + movepool + decent typing still is definitely too much for OU.

You also mention Greninja-Ash but that needs to get a KO first, has zero bulk and is way more one-dimensioal. Obviously it has its own advantages like Spikes or priority but still. And even then it's considered one of the best Pokemon of the tier and has been considered banworthy by some.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:37:49 No.43865758 Report

Quoted By: >>43865765

>>43865747
Wall of calcs I mentioned:

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 200-237 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

12 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 170-204 (52.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 76-90 (23.6 - 28%) -- 85.7% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 188-224 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 29.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 205-244 (51.6 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 200-238 (50.7 - 60.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Nobody runs full SpD in gen 7 but still)

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 168-200 (52.3 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Jirachi: 199-234 (49.3 - 58%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Jirachi: 265-312 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 213-252 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 161-190 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:38:55 No.43865765 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865758
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 166-198 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 213-252 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 156-185 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 133-156 (32.2 - 37.7%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 192-227 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously didn't bother calcing against stuff that has obvious double weaknesses like Ferrothorn or Mantine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:48:03 No.43865841 Report

Quoted By: >>43865913 >>43866024

>>43865730
Baton Pass is a move, while Drizzle is an ability. They are not play styles, since you can dry pass with baton pass and you can run Pelipper without a dedicated rain team.
Smogon is inconsistent with complex bans and dishonest about their favoritism toward certain mechanics. The OU council hated dynamax and wanted it completely gone, so they were unwilling to go complex on it under any circumstances.
Dynamax wouldn't have been broken in Gen VIII if Smogon just banned Max Airstream, since it was that move alone that broke all of the dynamax abusers which were flying types (Togekiss, Hawlucha, Gyarados and Lando-T, Dragonite in natdex).
Yet Smogon bends over backwards to keep Drizzle/Drought in Gen V, coming up with whatever stupid bullshit to justify a made-up "identity" yet bans dynamax which was much easier to balance by simply getting rid of the problematic move. Unsurprisingly, Gen V is a bullshit meta that's still not balanced or simple 10 years after BW2.
I don't even care about Blaziken and laugh at brocucks, but Blaze Blaziken is just the face of Smogon's hypocrisy, favoritism and incompetence when it comes to actually balancing a complicated meta. Their bans are not motivated by making a fair experience, just what the OU council enjoys (and has the most success at) playing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:49:33 No.43865849 Report

Quoted By: >>43865872 >>43865897 >>43865989

>>43865609
>Smogon isn't afraid to have stupid complex bans in other areas, like Baton Pass or Drizzle/Swift Swim
Literally everyone considers these bans a mistake and in fact Baton Pass was eventually revisited as a simple ban.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:53:25 No.43865872 Report

Quoted By: >>43865989

>>43865609
On top of this >>43865849 Weather + Ability bans were also eventually overturned with just banning the ability outright.

The old complex bans people would always complain about are long gone. Theres no justification left to ever allow something like a speed boost blaziken ban to happen.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Polar.png, 21KiB, 160x163

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:53:27 No.43865873 Report

Quoted By:

>More legendaries in OU

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:57:16 No.43865897 Report

Quoted By: >>43865926 >>43865929 >>43865979

>>43865849
Speaking of which, I wonder when Smogon is going to go back on the Sleep Clause too.
It’s literally altering the game mechanics and yet no one seems to care.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 17:59:57 No.43865913 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865841
gen 5 competetive is really what turned me off from the whole gen

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:01:01 No.43865926 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865897
hopefully never, sleep clause makes perfect sense

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:01:29 No.43865929 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865897
ABR tried to remove sleep clause at the very beginning of gen 8 but it got quickly reverted because there's no real reason to. Why would you want to remove it? Yes, technically it's not 100% true to cart mechanics but it's basically the only bigger exception that seems perfectly fine as it is since it doesn't affect anything else.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:08:00 No.43865979 Report

Quoted By: >>43867684

>>43865897
I sometimes wonder what kind of teams people who want sleep clause gone use because if you want to be a jerk and put everything to sleep to stall, why not just play a full lord squad worth of stall instead?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:09:09 No.43865989 Report

Quoted By: >>43866039 >>43866072

>>43865872
>On top of this >>43865849 Weather + Ability bans were also eventually overturned with just banning the ability outright.
Are Drizzle/Drought finally banned in OU? What about Excadrill, did they ban it again?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:13:51 No.43866024 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865841
>They are not play styles
The reason why both of them were banned was because they were literally broken play styles. Scolipede, Espeon, Vaporeon, etc. are demonstrably not issues outside of Baton Pass. The fact you're saying Pelipper, when it was Politoed who was the culprit for the Swift Swim ban also confirms you're a newfag, and yes, again, Swift Swim being used in conjunction with Drizzle was the source of the ban, not Politoed or Kingdra or Omastar and Kabutops in particular. Drypassing and 'but why can't I use m-muh politoed in OU' were perfectly fine sacrifices at the time and they've been undone since because they no longer require you to run specific mons to beat it.

And, again - all the above cases applied to several mons spread throughout OU because the culprit for why something is bannable isn't just one thing. Blaziken is just one Pokemon. It's not special, it doesn't deserve to move down to RU or wherever it would go so that Blazikenfags can get a happy complex ban. If you banned HA on Blaziken, then this would be free grounds for the idea that you can run Corviknight in RU if you JUST take away Roost, or you can run Zacian in OU if you JUST take away its STABs, which is entirely retarded and would require the entire meta to be reworked.

Also, do you really think Smogon gives one fuck about the gen 5 meta from ten years ago? Lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:15:31 No.43866039 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865989
Weather and weather abuse abilities are perfectly ok on gen 6 and above because weather's no longer permanent, Excadrill is a fucking threat but he has a sizeable amount of shit that always keeps it in check (though gen 8 is an entire different topic, if it wasn't for Corviknight, Driller would go back to Ubers because Rapid Spin buffs are busted)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:19:54 No.43866072 Report

Quoted By: >>43866084

>>43865989
No, in gen 5 Sand Rush is banned. Excadrill is legal. Also post gen 5, with the weather nerfs its never good enough to get banned from OU but UU/RU or whatever bans Drizzle or Drought outright if it becomes a problem.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:21:18 No.43866084 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866072
>but UU/RU or whatever bans Drizzle or Drought outright if it becomes a problem.
which is to say, all the time other than Drought being dandy and fine in gen7 RU.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:25:36 No.43866115 Report

Quoted By: >>43866171 >>43866251

>>43864833
Dracovish is also nowhere near as versitile or fast as Palkia and only runs two sets, both of which are Choiced.

>>43862912
Because then you'd have to do something similar for every banned Pokemon across every tier and OM (Other Metagame). Ubers and OU aren't the only tiers available.
Yes, we understand that Blaziken is banned because of Speed Boost, but Zygarde is banned in Gen 7 because of Thousand Arrows... and Dracovish is banned because of Fisheous Rend... and Venomoth is banned in Gen 6 RU because of Quiver Dance... and Diggersby is banned from UU because of Huge Power...
You see what I'm getting at?Every time a Pokemon would be seen as a "problem", i would just receive arbitary nerfs until half the tier is some Frankenstein Monster of restricted moves/abilities/items.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:35:01 No.43866171 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866115
>and Venomoth is banned in Gen 6 RU
More like being one of the reasons RUBL existed (alongside Zoroark) since the birth of RU

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:35:15 No.43866173 Report

Quoted By: >>43866208 >>43866265 >>43866395

>>43865747
>Life Orb Palkia with the combination of Hydro Pump, Spacial Rend, Thunderbolt and Fire Blast has almost no good switch-ins either and that's in a way bigger dex with may more defensive threats.
I could make the same argument for Mega Metagross or the upcoming Dragon Dance Garchomp. Many of the A-S ranks in natdex like Dracovish, Darm-G, NP Hydreigon and Megagross are either "too much" for OU, or Smogon's players have to accept that this is the new normal and OU's experienced a serious bump in power.
Even if you ban Hydreigon, there will be a new NP right below it, because NP is a TM now. Dragon Dance is a TM now.
With Palkia, all it has are raw stats and high BP moves, which seems tame when everything else has boosting moves + boosting abilities.
>You mention Palkia losing to Chansey but a lot of special attackers that can't somehow circumvent its special defense do. A special attacker can still be broken in OU even if it can't get past Chansey. And if you really hate Chansey that much you could even run gimmicky shit like Focus Punch since Palkia actually has a good 120 base attack.
Those special attackers do so with a boosting move, Knock Off, or a strong STAB physical move.
Palkia needs to run water/electric/fire special moves, so even a Hasty, LO Focus Punch is easily thwarted by Seismic Toss. Outrage is a 3HKO so LO Palkia kills itself trying to brute force through Chansey with a physical move.
In Kyurem's case, because it only needs Freeze Dry/Earth Power, it can afford to run utility moves like Substitute and Roost, allowing it to pressure stall Chansey which Palkia can't do.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:38:51 No.43866208 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866173
>or the upcoming Dragon Dance Garchomp

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:44:38 No.43866251 Report

Quoted By: >>43866309

>>43866115
>Dracovish is also nowhere near as versitile or fast as Palkia and only runs two sets, both of which are Choiced.
How does that matter at all? Are you implying that Palkia is better than Dracovish? Because it's not, it's worse in almost every way.
Hard to imagine that after a 90%+ pro ban people still don't understand that Dracovish is one of the worst designed Pokemon in franchise history.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:46:32 No.43866265 Report

Quoted By: >>43866353

>>43866173
>upcoming Dragon Dance Garchomp

Hate to crush your spirit but if the Home leak is any indicator, DD Chomp isn't happening. GF doesn't care that DD is a TM, they can just deny any mon from learning whatever they want.

Also because Smogon is ultimately a fan meta, the power level line is drawn arbitrarily. While up to this point, Smogons tended to draw the line high and let every broken thing into OU like you're saying, that doesn't make it true forever, and it doesn't mean they have to entertain dropping bottom of the barrel Ubers because they might only be S+ rank threats and not like obnoxiously broken garbage. Pretty sure most the playerbase is also in agreement of not dropping 680 BST shit just on the basis that it might not be as game breaking as it looks like at first glance. If almost nobody wants it to happen at any level of play, it won't happen.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:51:25 No.43866309 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866251
>How does that matter at all?
because this makes Palkia harder to play around. Dracovish was already hard enough to play around and it basically spammed one move the majority of the time. Plus if Palkia ever touched OU, you'd see a huge surge of rain teams. You're basically saying "Run Chansey or die" just so you'd allow Palkia in OU. It's like you're forgetting that Palkia has base 150 special attack that will punch a hole into any Non-Chansey Pokemon right from the get go. Not every team can or is willing to use Chansey so they don't get bopped by Palkia, hence why its staying in Ubers for the foreseeable future.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 18:56:49 No.43866353 Report

Quoted By: >>43866795

>>43866265
I was under the impression from that leak that Garchomp learns DD, did something change?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 19:01:03 No.43866395 Report

Quoted By: >>43866545

>>43866173
Why do keep bringing up Kyurem? Kyurem is weaker and needs Choice Specs to be some big offensive threat. Substitue + Roost has its merits too but that's not something people care much about anymore now that Metronome got fixed and obviously isn't the reason people consider Kyurem suspect-worthy in gen 8, the specs set is. Kyurem is also weak to Stealth Rock. I don't know where you get the idea from that Palkia wouldn't be an insane threat in OU, it doesn't even necessarily need to outspeed some stuff because it's bulky enough to live a hit and its typing only leaves it with two weaknesses, one of which (Dragon) isn't even that common.

The existence of Chansey does not excuse broken special attackers to drop down into the tier since that's the only reliable answer that isn't complete niche shit especially if you factor in its versatile movepool, potential to abuse rain and Z-moves. It's like dropping Xerneas into gen 7 OU because Magearna and Scizor exist.

You also keep bringing up Dracovish but most people agree Dracovish is cancer and most people voted to ban it so how does that help your point? It's slower, has less bulk and is the most one-trick pony Pokemon ever even if that one trick it has is really fucking good. Palkia is actually a great Pokemon with a versatile movepool and 150 special attack that doesn't rely on one specific move to dish out massive amounts damage. It also doesn't take up your mega slot and can run more than just choice items.

Besides, where the fuck are you seeing DD Garchomp? Garchomp isn't getting Dragon Dance.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 19:08:28 No.43866460 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865290
>>43865173
How about making it Grass/Fire instead of Grass/Fairy that way its type is unique. Give it +20 Def, +20 HP, and +10 Speed (BST:530), give it Moonblast, Fiery Dance, Pollen Puff, and keep its abilities the same. Allow Own Tempo Petal Dance to stay its niche.
>>43865549
Taking a single move like fiery dance is not so bad imo, Pollen Puff was signature now its not, Mystical Fire was now its not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 19:21:53 No.43866545 Report

Quoted By: >>43866738 >>43866795

>>43866395
>Why do keep bringing up Kyurem?
>same ability
>almost same BST
>almost same offensive stats
>same number of resistances
>similar neutral bulk
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Palkia: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
Kyurem also has reliable recovery and Dragon Dance, which somewhat fixes its low speed problem.
Kyurem has more weaknesses and is SR weak, but those are the only major disadvantages versus Palkia. STAB Freeze Dry hits harder against Water types than non-STAB Thunder does and it's x4 effective against Water/Ground, Water/Dragon, Water/Flying and Water/Grass types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 19:43:22 No.43866738 Report

Quoted By: >>43867263

>>43866545
>almost same offensive stats

Difference between 130 and 150 special attack is kind of significant. 100 base speed is also noticeably better than 95 base speed even if it's only a 5 point difference since that speed-tier is so crowded.

Yeah, they have similar neutral bulk when just looking at stats but in practice Palkia's bulk is obviously better since it's not weak to Stealth Rock and has 3 fewer weaknesses. Being only weak to Dragon and Fairy is significantly better than being weak to both of those and also Fighting, Rock and Steel. Double water resistance is also nice for an offensive Pokemon since that means it's naturally a good answer to opposing offensive waters. That plus the double fire resistance and aso a Steel resistance is generally more useful than the Grass and Electric resistance. Well, resisting electric is pretty nice admittedly but still. Still, Palkia is a water type that isn't weak to Electric or Grass which is also pretty important for rain.

You keep going on about STAB Freeze Dry but that does not make up for Palkia's better special attack and better offensive movepool.

>STAB Freeze Dry hits harder against Water types than non-STAB Thunder

That is straight up wrong:

252 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Palkia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 150-178 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Thunder from Palkia is actually stronger. Freeze-Dry barely does more damage than Thunderbolt.

252 SpA Palkia Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 124-146 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Hitting the double weaknesses is also pretty irrelevant. Water/Flying is double weak to Electric too, Water/Grass is basically non-existent since only Ludicolo has that typing, Water/Dragon already gets hit by dragon moves anyway so that only really leaves Water/Ground.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 19:49:37 No.43866795 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866353
People were talking about that leak because Garchomp DIDN'T learn DD, and people were completey baffled by it.

>>43866545
Kyurem is enormously worse than Palkia in practice due to its typing being totally redundant with each other, and having essentially no good options outside of Ice moves and Earth Power. Its stats are close to Palkia's, but so is Wishiwashi's as a comparison, and its pretty blantant how much worse that is than Palkia. Coverage is the name of the game when it comes to offense, and typing is when it comes to bulk. Kyurem has neither. Palkia has both.

Being worse than Palkia at literally everything other than tanking Grass or Electric moves is enough of a gap where something like Kyurem would be almost unusably bad in a tier like BWOU, where Palkia would be unironically 100% usage in that tier. There are mons that are kinda close to the edge in Ubers, Palkia isn't one and never was one at any point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:05:21 No.43866965 Report

Quoted By: >>43867000

>>43856227
Melmetal could've come back in gen 8

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:05:40 No.43866966 Report

Quoted By: >>43866993 >>43867136

>>43864936
Coverage.
Just any coverage at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:07:19 No.43866982 Report

Quoted By: >>43867395

>>43865609
But they are afraid to have complex bans in other areas.
Complex bans are a last resort, and baton pass was only complex banned because an entire playstyle revolved around it and it'd be a dick move to ban an entire playstyle. Eventually it just became necessary though.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:08:06 No.43866993 Report

Quoted By: >>43867136 >>43867652

>>43866966
Coverage can't be Lilligant's only problem that's keeping it from OU though? A boost to stats and maybe even a dual typing would help get it from shit to decent. I mean look at Bellossom, it has a better movepool and is still shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:08:33 No.43867000 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866965
It could've and even the council agreed that it should've, but the players were ultimately the ones with the power to make the vote, and they voted to keep it banned.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:25:22 No.43867136 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866993
>>43866966
Bellossom
>Chlorophyll
>Giga Drain/Petal Dance/Energy Ball
>Moonblast
>Sludge Bomb/Strength Sap
>Quiver Dance
For some context, this is still a PU mon.

Durant

Durant Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:38:58 No.43867263 Report

Quoted By: >>43868230

>>43866738
Nobody is arguing that Kyurem is better than Palkia, just that Palkia is closest to OU. And your breakdown really underlines that, since the difference between Palkia and Kyurem is
>20 points SpA
>5 points speed
>3 more weaknesses, including SR
The coverage differences don't really matter, because Freeze Dry/Earth Power hits 10 types SE versus 9 types for Water/Electric/Fire while still being 100% accurate. Palkia can also use Ice Beam and Earth Power but that narrows the comparison with Kyurem even further.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:47:37 No.43867342 Report

Quoted By:

Don't bring anything down. Instead, give Ubers its own tiering system like the standard format.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 20:53:20 No.43867395 Report

Quoted By:

>>43866982
>Complex bans are a last resort
There was no reason to not ban Drizzle/Drought and Excadrill in Gen V.
"weather generation" is real fanfic because Groudon and Kyogre were introduced in Gen III. Weather dominated Ubers to that point and had done so for two generations, Smogon long knew how powerful permanent weather was and how it centralized teams.
Instead, Smogon does everything to accommodate the broken weather abilities, introducing complex clauses out the ass. There was zero excuses for that shit.
At least with BP and AT, players did not understand how powerful they were in their debut generations, or even the generations right after. It took a modern (~Gen VI) understanding of the power of dry pass/trapping that lead to retroactive bans for both.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:07:05 No.43867566 Report

Quoted By:

Solution: Make an Ubers OU and Ubers UU, ban the upper half of OU into Ubers UU (Magearna, Lando T, Greninja, Clefable, Tapu Koko, Megagross, G-Darm, Tornadus, Toxapex, etc), and drop "shitty" ubers Pokemon (Deoxys, Palkia, Kyurem-W, Genesect, Pheromosa, Landorus, Zekrom, Shaymin-Sky, Darkrai, Mega-Lucario, Blaziken, etc.) into the tier.

This way OU can remain at a reasonable power level, and you can reasonably use the outclassed Ubers

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:08:40 No.43867580 Report

Quoted By: >>43867631 >>43870825

Guys can I COME DOWN NOW??

Im not broken anymore I SWEAR...

I dont have HP Ice for opposing Lando anymore either...

please just ONE gen ill behave i promise

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:12:38 No.43867631 Report

Quoted By:

>>43867580
>speculating about Pokemon that aren't even available until November

Losing HP Ice sucks but on the other hand Pokemon that will try to check it lose their HP Ice to hit Landorus too. If it didn't have Sheer Force sure, but well, it does have Sheer Force.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:13:17 No.43867638 Report

Quoted By: >>43867735 >>43867945

>>43856227
I still don't understand why are Clefable, Melmetal and Dracovish in Uber.

Clefable is a 2HKO with any poison or steel type attack, Melmetal is too slow and has paper sp def to be a game breaking treat and Dracovish is too slow to benefit from Fishious Rend unless you build your team around it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:14:03 No.43867652 Report

Quoted By: >>43868237

>>43866993
Coverage is its biggest problem, though. Grass is the most resisted type in the game, as in, there are more Pokemon resistant to Grass than any other type.

If Lilligant had Earth Power (not that big of an ask), it could be a viable RU Pokemon. Steel/Poison/Fire types that normally wall it would get fucked, while also giving it Neutral coverage against Dragon. It'd still get walled by Flying and Bug types, but those only account for 1/6th of the meta instead of a full 3/5ths of the entire meta resisting it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:16:09 No.43867684 Report

Quoted By:

>>43865979
It's not for stall, it's for slow, frail, mixed attackers that don't want to fight anything that can fight back.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:20:07 No.43867735 Report

Quoted By: >>43867832

>>43867638
>Clefable in Ubers
You bastard, you got my hopes up that it was banned.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:26:16 No.43867832 Report

Quoted By: >>43867864 >>43867868

>>43867735
Haha, sorry.

I still don't understand why would you want it banned, I only play Ubers and that little shit dies to everything

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:30:00 No.43867864 Report

Quoted By:

>>43867832
wish passing with teleport makes chip damage irrelevant and makes bulky pokemon with no recovery lose their major flaw

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:30:20 No.43867868 Report

Quoted By: >>43867925

>>43867832
In OU it's a menace. With it's BFF Corviknight, it's got the perfect switch-in to any Poison or Steel type attack. The only Pokemon that can deal with both, Toxtricity, is unreliable at best, especially since Excadrill and Hippowdon are scary threats in the tier.

Clefable on its own is pushing it, but when you consider that it fits onto just about any team and that it can be made nearly invincible with the right teammates, the thing becomes an absolute menace to society.

If only we still had Magnezone...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:34:25 No.43867925 Report

Quoted By: >>43868014 >>43868744

>>43867868
Magnezone would die to Corvi's body press, or drill's earthquake.

Tbh I had never thought about what a perfect combination Drill, Clef, Corvi and Hippo make

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:36:07 No.43867945 Report

Quoted By:

>>43867638
>Dracovish is too slow to benefit from Fishious Rend
fishious rend activates if the opponent switches, too, which means that while dracovish is pressing the funny fish button, you can't switch into anything that isn't seismitoad
in addition, dracovish is surprisingly bulky (90/100/80), has a pretty good defensive typing, and still has the attack (90) and fishious rend base power (85*1.5(strong jaw)*1.5(stab)=191) to still deal a commendable amount of damage with a slow fishious rend

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 21:44:34 No.43868014 Report

Quoted By:

>>43867925
No HP Fire means it can't kill Excadrill anymore, but it can still trap and kill Corviknight. It gets 2hko'd by Body Press but OHKO's with Tbolt.

And yeah, Corv, Excadrill (or Toad), and Clefable have been utter cancer since the beginning of this gen. Pex and Ferrothorn added in make the most cancerous stall team possible since Gen 2, and Stall greatly benefited from Dugtrio for trapping or Vish for putting down Stallbreakers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 22:10:17 No.43868230 Report

Quoted By: >>43868360 >>43868950

>>43867263
You're really underestimating how important the combination of all these advantages is. Better typing + lack of SR weakness + better speed tier + solidly higher special attack + way more offensive move versatility + potential to abuse rain obviously makes Palkia immensely more threatening in OU. If it only had one of these things over Kyurem then fine, but it has all of these at once and the potential to run different items including a signature item that boosts its STAB moves without drawback.

I'm not even sure why you specifically picked Palkia out of all Pokemon, there are worse Ubers even if it's not that great in Ubers anymore. I wish it was legal for a short while in OU so you could see how it would immediately warp the whole meta around itself. There are so many situations where one of these better atributes is important you can't even count them all. Kyurem getting Freeze-Dry makes it more threatening sure but that's still not comparable to everything Palkia has going for it.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 22:11:16 No.43868237 Report

Quoted By:

>>43867652
Agreed its movepool sucking is its most important change, but it's not the only one it needs is all I was saying.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 22:25:47 No.43868360 Report

Quoted By: >>43868483

>>43868230
>I wish it was legal for a short while in OU so you could see how it would immediately warp the whole meta around itself.
Not the guy you are arguing with but this point could be an excellent experiment. Bring down stuff like Lando-I, Arceus-Bug or shit that people claim ain´t good enough to be banned.

Give 1 month for each Pokemon (A month for OU Arceus Bug, A month for OU Lando-I) and shitters will autistically beg for mercy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 22:40:31 No.43868483 Report

Quoted By:

>>43868360
1 month would be way too long. Obviously something like this wouldn't happen in the first place but if it theoretically would you don't need 30 days in a row with broken shit.

Marshadow for example warped the tier around itself for the few days it was actually legal in OU. I don't think it even stayed for a full week.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 23:07:48 No.43868744 Report

Quoted By: >>43869810

>>43867925
>Tbh I had never thought about what a perfect combination Drill, Clef, Corvi and Hippo make
Imagine if Dracovish wasn't banned at it got Sand Rush

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 14 Jun 2020 23:26:58 No.43868950 Report

Quoted By:

>>43868230
>there are worse Ubers even if it's not that great in Ubers anymore
The speed tiers matter far more in OU than in Ubers, and the three 600+ BST mons who fell from Ubers were all slow, frail mixed attackers. Palkia is a step up from them since it's not that slow and not frail, but it fits the mold of mons that have already shown to be tolerable in OU in the past since it hasn't been touched since DPP.
Most of the Gen VII D-ranks aren't there anymore due to the new TRs that gave Reshiram, Zekrom, and all Necrozma forms Dragon Dance. Genesect, Pheromosa, Lando-I and Naganadel are all too fast and powerful for OU even if they're mediocre Ubers. Mega Kang's Seismic Toss means a lot more in a meta where most mons barely have more than 202 HP.
Zygarde was also kicked back upstairs in natdex, so it's unlikely to be retested any time soon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 01:20:52 No.43869810 Report

Quoted By: >>43869869

>>43868744
I'm pretty sure Vish would still prefer Strong Jaw.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 01:28:16 No.43869869 Report

Quoted By: >>43870873

>>43869810
Choice Band Sand Rush is as strong as Scarf Strong Jaw Dracovish. But now with sand up you outspeed pretty much everything but Sand Rush Excadrill and scarf Dragapult so you're almost always getting the moving first boost on Fishious Rend. Not to mention Dragon/Water is great typing defensively for sand teams too.

Definitely would be worth it and would be even harder to deal with than regular Dracovish already was.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 02:33:29 No.43870352 Report

Quoted By: >>43870655 >>43870734 >>43870881

I think Zekrom would've been safe back in gen 6. Mega Altaria walled it perfectly, its speed was kind of bad so it would be easy to revenge kill, shit on by Lando.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 03:22:58 No.43870655 Report

Quoted By:

>>43870352
It's high BP STAB attack based off of 150 attack are way too strong for OU. It 2HKOs almost everything with just its STAB moves basically, even a lot of resists. The few things it doesn't like Ferrothorn can either get sniped by a Hidden Power or Draco Meteor since it has 120 special attack. Or simply trapped by Magnezone. Zekrom would destroy the whole tier with some basic team support. Also has good bulk, Roost and Hone Claws. 90 speed for OU standards isn't that fast but definitely isn't slow either in combination with that bulk and power.

Definitely too broken for OU, Altaria-Mega is one of the very few things that doesn't immediately die to it and can actually threaten it back.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 03:34:18 No.43870734 Report

Quoted By:

>>43870352
>Mega Altaria walled it perfectly
in terms of type coverage yes, in terms of ability to actually take cb bolt strikes or volt switch with hazards up definitely not. and running altaria more or less commits you to running semistall these days so it's not like you can throw it on every team to deal with zekrom.
>its speed was kind of bad so it would be easy to revenge kill, shit on by Lando.
bro it's 100/120/100 bulk, scarf lando isn't even favored to ohko with eq if rocks aren't up (which they will be but think about what that means for all the weaker eqs)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 03:50:01 No.43870825 Report

Quoted By:

>>43867580
>Sheer Force Modest Choice Specs Hurricane Landorus-I
>Implying switch-ins exist
If Landorus-I ever gets retested in OU or is in OU on arrival, that dude is getting quick banned real fucking fast.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 03:59:07 No.43870873 Report

Quoted By: >>43870904 >>43871057

>>43869869
But Choice Band Strong Jaw in the rain is the strongest.
Especially with webs support.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 04:00:08 No.43870881 Report

Quoted By:

>>43870352
It's bad enough when a mon requires you to use up one of your 6 team slots just to deal with it.
But a mon requiring you to use up your singular Mega slot to deal with it can't be considered "safe" by any stretch of the imagination.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 04:04:33 No.43870904 Report

Quoted By:

>>43870873
It's the strongest, it's not the best. Sand as an archetype is much more at home in OU than rain is and Hippowdon soaks up damage way way better than Pelipper, it's considerably easy to keep sand up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 04:30:08 No.43871057 Report

Quoted By: >>43871101 >>43872764 >>43872827

>>43870873
the webs set only works in a meta without serperior, if webs + dracovish became an issue everyone would run serperior and counter sweep

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 04:37:45 No.43871101 Report

Quoted By:

>>43871057
Webs were at their most common in gen 7 when Serperior was already used a lot though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 10:18:06 No.43872764 Report

Quoted By:

>>43871057
Not every team has Serperior.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 15 Jun 2020 10:39:26 No.43872827 Report

Quoted By:

>>43871057
webs teams need serp checks obv but serp isn't enough to invalidate the playstyle and wasn't last gen either. the fact that serp can't hp fire or breakneck blitz this gen directly cuts into its ability to hard sweep with the speed boost too

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