/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #43932288

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 09:13:10 No.43932288 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>43932300 >>43932391 >>43932586 >>43934511 >>43935474 >>43936227 >>43936265

Dracovish 2.0

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 09:14:58 No.43932300 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932288
Except it gets Metronome and that's a fun gamble

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 09:31:12 No.43932374 Report

Quoted By: >>43932511

how

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 09:34:13 No.43932391 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932288
don't compare my bro to such a fug design

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 09:54:55 No.43932511 Report

Quoted By: >>43932558 >>43936869

>>43932374
Expanding force base 80 power is boosted by 1.5x on psychic terrain plus the standart 1.3x terrain boost, so when applying STAB you get a 234 BP 100 Acc move while sitting on a nice speed tier and being inmune to sucker punch. Of course its not as huge as Vish (or as Koko is going to be with the new Electric move) but its still gonna see more usage now

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:01:48 No.43932558 Report

Quoted By: >>43932600 >>43935667

>>43932511
Oh yeah. It's the Fairy move that requires you to kill yourself.
I was about to point out that 234 BP isn't too insane for a move that requires suicide, but EF is just as spammable than Fishious Rend.
Hell, it's even stronger than an FR that doesn't go first.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:05:30 No.43932586 Report

Quoted By: >>43933469 >>43936812 >>43936844 >>43936885

>>43932288
Kneel.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:07:28 No.43932600 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932558
Wrong move, expanding force is a psychic type move. That fairy type suicide move is 100bp I think.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:30:48 No.43933469 Report

Quoted By: >>43933527

>>43932586
>gets one chance to counter Indeedee, can't switch in multiple times
>if pebbles are up and Indeedee predicted the switch, it can't counter at all
>both parties revenge kill one another equally well
Should have posted Chansey or something reliable

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:38:43 No.43933527 Report

Quoted By: >>43933529

>>43933469
How much does psyshock do on chansey

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 12:39:52 No.43933529 Report

Quoted By:

>>43933527
Under 50%, so without pebbles it could stall out the terrain

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 13:43:48 No.43934000 Report

Quoted By:

Is the female good too

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 13:45:04 No.43934010 Report

Quoted By: >>43935854

Post some calcs or I don't believe you.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 14:39:12 No.43934511 Report

Quoted By: >>43934858 >>43936085 >>43936566 >>43936812 >>43936844 >>43936885

>>43932288
Kneel

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 15:07:49 No.43934858 Report

Quoted By:

>>43934511
>indeedee used dazzling gleam!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 16:09:21 No.43935474 Report

Quoted By: >>43935625

>>43932288
Nah, Indeedee's interesting now but Expanding Force doesn't hit nearly as hard as Fishious Rend did. For instance:
>252 SpA Indeedee Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Psychic Terrain: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 16:23:26 No.43935625 Report

Quoted By: >>43935854 >>43936047

>>43935474
Mind Plate makes it a 2HKO on Clef. But the real issue is that Specs Timid Mystical Fire isn't a 2HKO on Corviknight and Specs Timid Dazzling Gleam isn't a 2HKO on Mandibuzz.

Indeedee's only coverage moves are Dazzling Gleam, Mystical Fire, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball.
It's worth noting though that Specs Timid Expanding Force is an OHKO on max HP Lando-T.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 16:28:01 No.43935667 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932558
nah, you're thinking of misty explosion. expanding force is the 80 BP psychic one
>but EF is just as spammable than Fishious Rend
well, you have dark types, chansey, aegislash, etc. you don't need to use shitmons like dracovish forced you to

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 16:41:52 No.43935854 Report

Quoted By: >>43935978

>>43934010
take steels with a grain of salt because mystical fire prediction shenanigans. also psychic was modified to 120 BP (80*1.5 after boost)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Psychic Terrain: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 319-376 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (nobody runs this, physdef don is better)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Indeedee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult in Psychic Terrain: 304-358 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Indeedee Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat in Psychic Terrain: 228-268 (75.2 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Indeedee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill in Psychic Terrain: 171-201 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Can't switch in)

252+ SpA Indeedee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rillaboom in Psychic Terrain: 321-378 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

The only things it obviously can't beat are Dark types and Chansey, but very few things can otherwise switch in on it. It's not as good as Dracovish, but it should definitely be a solid pick for some teams.

>>43935625
You honestly don't need Timid if you want to wallbreak with it

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 16:52:02 No.43935978 Report

Quoted By: >>43936284

>>43935854
>You honestly don't need Timid if you want to wallbreak with it
I went with Timid because Modest doesn't crack Corv either meanwhile Jolly Rillaboom and Jolly Excadrill OHKO Indeedee without even needing a boosting item. On top of that, Indeedee and Kyurem both have a chance to OHKO one another with Specs so it's not a speed tie you want to lose either.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 16:57:31 No.43936047 Report

Quoted By: >>43936142

>>43935625
But Mind Plate means you're not running Scarf, which means you get less value out of the Shadow Ball/Hex immunity. The fact that you can trick Scarf onto their bird or Chansey makes those matchups fine imo, since you could build around crippling them for an Alakazam in the back. Trouble is, you're not necessarily going to see those mons with Indeedee because Clefable also deals with it just fine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:01:10 No.43936085 Report

Quoted By:

>>43934511
>prankster in psychic terrain
kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:06:23 No.43936142 Report

Quoted By: >>43936777

>>43936047
I picked Mind Plate as a floor for the 2HKO. It's public knowledge that LO and Specs deal more damage than Mind Plate so you'd know from my calc by extension that those are 2HKOs as well.
If you care about Tricking, just do Specs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:14:18 No.43936227 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932288
more scared for veggie sea than for OU tho; indeedee is already viable in trick room, hitting like a truck with specs and max airstream support will be a pain

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:17:16 No.43936265 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932288
are we in agreement that if Lele gets Expanding Force, it should be banned

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:18:53 No.43936284 Report

Quoted By: >>43936497

>>43935978
>I went with Timid because Modest doesn't crack Corv either
252+ SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 205-242 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 170-201 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mystical Fire Scarf kills, Mystical Fire Specs 2HKOs special bulky sets, too. It's worth it.
>meanwhile Jolly Rillaboom and Jolly Excadrill OHKO Indeedee without even needing a boosting item
Nature doesn't really matter for Excadrill, though. Rillaboom is a thing, but if you need to deal with it you can just run Scarf. Failing to beat Rillaboom is better than losing out to most walls.
>On top of that, Indeedee and Kyurem both have a chance to OHKO one another with Specs so it's not a speed tie you want to lose either
I must be stupid since I'm not seeing the Indeedee thing.
Also, like, Chansey exists. Again, I would prefer losing some matchups and just having decent enough supports in the back than miss out on crucial wallbreaks.

Also, tbqh. I think the best use of Indeedee will eventually just become a suicide terrain setter for Alakazam in the long run anyway

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:36:42 No.43936497 Report

Quoted By: >>43936522 >>43936876

>>43936284
Why would you use a physically defensive Corviknight for the calc? That's like saying physdef Corv doesn't wall Specs Dragapult, like so what? Spdef does.

I'm not following you. Nature does matter for Excadrill since some are going to be Leftovers or Life Orb, not just Sash, or they could be Sash-broken and you want to get a kill but can't. Being able to beat most walls isn't really a victory when the ones that will come in don't get beat. Nailing the Corviknight/Mandibuzz with Trick will still leave them to either U-Turn/Roost.

>252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Indeedee: 331-390 (126.8 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 358-423 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Yeah I get what you're saying but where I'm coming from is you think they're going to go to their walls that work, not the ones that are a risk. Like, if I have a Toxapex, why would I risk switching SpDef Clefable in on Keldeo? Specs Pump would put Clef at risk.

Mega Zam got banned already so I could see something like that happening. Nasty Plot under Psychic Terrain should probably spike Dragapult and Zeraora usage even more.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:38:47 No.43936522 Report

Quoted By:

>>43936497
where I'm coming from is I'd* think

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:42:31 No.43936566 Report

Quoted By: >>43936812 >>43936844 >>43936885

>>43934511
Kneel

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 17:57:48 No.43936777 Report

Quoted By: >>43936839

>>43936142
I never denied that you could use a boosting item to 2-shot Clefable, the trouble is that running a boosting item necessarily means you forego Scarf. Scarf Indeedee can directly punish Dragapult among other things, which is massive for the kind of Psyspam builds Indeedee encourages. Since Trick lets you punish the superfat Psychic checks anyways, this would be the ideal set were it not for Clefable. Foregoing Scarf lets you outright KO more mons but it also means you have 2+ mons that Dragapult can outspeed and U-turn on, not to mention the extra struggle versus Hydreigon, Urshifu, etc.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:01:09 No.43936812 Report

Quoted By: >>43936844

>>43932586
>>43934511
>>43936566
Knee

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:03:35 No.43936839 Report

Quoted By:

>>43936777
You could always run Psyshock on Scarf for Clef if you feel that's your only problem.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:03:49 No.43936844 Report

Quoted By: >>43936866

>>43932586
>>43934511
>>43936566
>>43936812
Keel

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:05:30 No.43936866 Report

Quoted By: >>43936949

>>43936844
Ni!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:05:43 No.43936869 Report

Quoted By: >>43937001

>>43932511
Are you sure it's x1.5? I though it got x1.3?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:06:12 No.43936876 Report

Quoted By: >>43937158

>>43936497
>Why would you use a physically defensive Corviknight for the calc
Because it's the most popular Corv set?
>I'm not following you. Nature does matter for Excadrill since some are going to be Leftovers or Life Orb, not just Sash, or they could be Sash-broken and you want to get a kill but can't
I'm assuming in this scenario it's lead Indeedee vs lead Excadrill, which Indeedee always loses 1v1 and is forced to go into Corv anyway and thus the nature doesn't super matter. Also, if you're going to say Drill has taken chip or lost its Sash, then again, might as well run Scarf if your Indeedee is built to kill offense rather than wallbreak. Timid Specs isn't that much stronger than Modest Scarf against the relevant mons.
>Nailing the Corviknight/Mandibuzz with Trick will still leave them to either U-Turn/Roost
Yeah, but A. potentially 2HKOing Corv and Buzz with the right prediction of Mystical Fire/Dazzling Gleam is clearly really good, and B. once they have the choice item they're fucked in the scenario you do have Trick. The latter matters less for the nature discussion though
>Like, if I have a Toxapex, why would I risk switching SpDef Clefable in on Keldeo
Sure, that's a fair point. Which is also why I think, again, that Indeedee will eventually just be recognized as setup for Alakazam, because its individual ability to muscle past certain defensive threats is admittedly shaky no matter what you do (though of course it's a good thing it can't click one move and beat the entire meta like dracofaggot). I just think that if you're going to focus on its ability to break walls or poke holes in offense, may as well go for power anyway and make up the difference with the right choice item.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:06:41 No.43936885 Report

Quoted By:

>>43932586
>>43934511
>>43936566
Neil

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:11:45 No.43936949 Report

Quoted By:

>>43936866
I expected an eel.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:14:54 No.43937001 Report

Quoted By:

>>43936869
1.5x is EF's boost on terrain. The 1.3x is another modifier added by the terrain itself
So, basically little stronger than Psychic Hyper Beam every turn

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 19 Jun 2020 18:29:01 No.43937158 Report

Quoted By:

>>43936876
>Because it's the most popular Corv set?
The degree of popularity isn't that extreme to warrant ignoring the more concerning case. It's not like pre-Dracovish ban Toxapex or Ferrothorn.
It doesn't necessarily have to be lead, it could be them pivoting/doubling around. Modest Scarf is good too since it outpaces Dragapult.
Modest doesn't 2HKO Corv and is a roll on Mandi, but again they can Roost spam. By all means you can now sweep with another mon that appreciates that but I was specifically talking about Indeedee's solo prowess now that it was gifted Expanding Force. (There's also the matter of having to pick 3 between Mystical Fire, Psyshock, Dazzling Gleam, Hyper Voice, and Trick.)
I agree that it's best with a partner, I was just commenting in this thread trying to dissuade what was said in the OP.

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