/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #44037172

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Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 17:44:54 No.44037172 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>44037287 >>44037377 >>44037458 >>44037707 >>44037791 >>44037794 >>44037858 >>44038254 >>44038405 >>44039514 >>44039973 >>44040040 >>44040883 >>44040950 >>44041606 >>44041650 >>44041686 >>44041723 >>44041760

PURELY hypothetically speaking, if you were say aspiring to create an entirely new elemental creature-catching franchise inspired by Pokémon. . . what major changes to the element system would you make? How would you differentiate it?

What ideas are interesting to you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 17:52:05 No.44037247 Report

Quoted By:

For starters weirdo creature Types like Dragon Fairy and Ghost, if present at all, need to not be a part of the same system that Thunder and Wind 'n' shit are in. They are not elements.

With it being its own franchise you're also free to make calls such as whether Water and Ice are separate or if Earth would relate to plant life or not. You could also add things that just AREN'T feasible to add in Pokémon but would make sense if in a different series. Like Cosmic, Cyber and Magic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 17:54:59 No.44037287 Report

Quoted By: >>44042658

>>44037172
>Make at least one line of each type combo for maximum possibilities and replayability.
>Try to even out individual typings on creatures as much as possible so you aren't stuck with 10 good mons for one type
*cough* ice *cough*

Other than that nothing else really other than change around weaknesses here and there. I think Pokemon did a great job at not adding redundant typing (besides maybe ground/rock.)

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:04:05 No.44037377 Report

Quoted By: >>44037533 >>44039882 >>44042655

>>44037172
I hate that you aren't getting replies. I used to make threads like these. I really find them interesting as it makes you question what really IS a type.
I would post type charts from all sorts of franchises. Others would post a few interesting ones as well.
Tem Tem is laughable. The only one to caught my attention was Monster Hunter.

MY input on this subject was:
Separating the Species Types from the Attack Types. This is because some Types are creatively bankrupt in terms of attacks, Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Ground, whereas others should be just reserved as Abilities, like Poison and Dark, as most are plain animals without much reasoning for having those Weakness/Resistances. This also allows Sound to become a type, but only an attack type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:11:33 No.44037458 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
instead of going with advanced rock paper scissors, do multiple rock paper scissors like fire emblem

grass>water>fire>repeat
death>life>undeath>repeat
light>dark>void>repeat
machines>nature>decay>repeat

just to list an example

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:20:36 No.44037533 Report

Quoted By: >>44037643 >>44039882

>>44037377
Another suggestion I made was to categorise creatures based on:
>Environment
This arose from my frustration with the Ground type. As it stands now, Ground is a clay (faux-Rock) type, a beefy, hard-skinned Normal type, an underground type, and a sort of lizard type along with Dragon. And also the weaknesses don't make sense for all the categories. Hence, I turned the Ground type into a true Lizard type, the Hot-climate type or "Arid Type". Then everything unraveled from there, with the Ice type becoming Arctic ...and..so..on..a d so...forth....

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:33:58 No.44037643 Report

Quoted By: >>44037740 >>44039882

>>44037533
Would've it make more sense at that point to ditch the type system and have mons be weak or strong against elements on an individual basis, like in the MegaTen franchise?
Or you could keep it and make defensive moves of Type A weaken moves of Type B and so on, but the mons themselves wouldn't have intrinsic weaknesses. Maybe affinities though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:40:49 No.44037707 Report

Quoted By: >>44038776 >>44039205

>>44037172
I respect Pokemon's idea of types representing combat styles and classes as well as elemental powers, but in my own hypothetical franchise I'd refine it so the first type represents what the creature's physical biology and the second type represents their elemental power.
"Body" types could include Mammal, Bird, Bug, Lizard, Fish, Mollusk, Frog, Ghost, Plant, and Alien.
"Element" types could include Normal, Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Ice, Thunder, Poison, Soap, Sugar, Light, and Darkness.
The elemental types would function like normal Pokemon types. The body types I'm not certain on but they'd probably be similar to secondary abilities.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:44:13 No.44037740 Report

Quoted By: >>44037894 >>44042367

>>44037643
>have mons be weak or strong against elements on an individual basis

Sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:48:20 No.44037791 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
I would add “Plant” between Wind and Earth.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:48:50 No.44037794 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
It depends. If it starts as a literal hackrom/fangame, I'd just change the name of things to avoid C&D. So regarding types, I'd leave the same 18 types but renamed: ghost becomes eerie, ground becomes earth, dark becomes rogue, and so on.

If it starts as its own thing only loosely taking inspritation from pokemon, I'd use my favorite, 7-way elemental system, similar to the one in your pic, but merging water with ice and thunder with wind.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 18:56:37 No.44037858 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
I actually did make my own monster game, on paper at least, and the types I used were:
Earth, Light, Wind, Dark (as in literal darkness, not evil like Pokemon), Thunder, Metal, Water, Ice, Wood, Poison, Fire, Magic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 19:01:14 No.44037894 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037740
Eh, it isn't that hard as long as you keep the idea of types in mind while doing it. Best of both worlds, really, because distribution of weaknesses and strengths suggest certain type combinations, while you're not really bound to them so it's freer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 19:40:42 No.44038254 Report

Quoted By: >>44040114

>>44037172
>ice is just hard water
>fire beats hard water
>fire cant beat soft water

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 19:57:18 No.44038405 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
>>44037172
Just to criticize your little pic-related, Light and Dark would flat out not exist, Water and Ice would not be wholly separate, and Fire and Lightning probably wouldn't be separate either.
It really depends on the world building on what sort of type system gets built. It should build upon and enhance the story you are trying to tell.
Pokemon, for example, seems to have a running theme about the conflict between nature and technology, so I might leverage a type system to better reflect that theme. Or, in the original games, there's a theme about using Pokemon for profit rather than working with Pokemon as coequals. A type system that reflects this conflict should be designed.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1593014236842.png, 224KiB, 646x515

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 20:35:14 No.44038776 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037707
>soap
>sugar

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 21:16:06 No.44039205 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037707
>Soap
>Sugar

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 21:52:45 No.44039514 Report

Quoted By: >>44039641 >>44039882 >>44042685

>>44037172
What about a dual system? A basic element as the first type, and a secondary type to describe the pokemon?

So you have:
Primary Types - Earth, Wind, Water, Fire, Electric, Ice, Metal, Magic, Demon, Poison
Secondary Sub Types - Fighter, Warrior, Machine, Beast, Bird, Bug, Fish, Plant, Dragon, etc.

So, something like Pawniard might be Metal/Warrior, Venusaur would be Poison/Plant, Swellow would be Wind/Bird, Goldeen would be Water/Fish, etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:04:08 No.44039641 Report

Quoted By: >>44039882 >>44040003

>>44039514
My spin on this system is that I wouldn't let anything other than mythical creatures be species types. The problem is that if you start going fish, mammal, invertebrate, reptile etc., that really is a LOT if you're going to cover everything. It's too complex and should be simpler.

The other problem is that it's not like most of those have many special attributes or interactions anyway. The point of having these class systems is to say "here is a group of creatures that are so unique and prominent that they are just in a whole category of their own.
So mythic creatures get to be separated, Dragon/Undead/Fae etc. If anything, non-mythic creatures might be put in a catch-all called Beast.

I'd merge Fighter into being just Warrior and then also add Healer or Mage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:05:46 No.44039658 Report

Quoted By:

the typing system needs an overhaul. it needs rebalancing, meaning nerfin fairy, and boosting bug, and ice, and making electric and fire more reasonable in terms of their defenses and resistances

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:13:30 No.44039731 Report

Quoted By:

I'd pick metal,earth,wood,fire,water, and air. Both the Chinese and greeko Roman elements put together.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:14:06 No.44039738 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:28:27 No.44039882 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037377
>>44037533
>>44037643
>>44039514
>>44039641
Split into Attack Types and Body Types. Body types can be themed around Habitat:
Field
Arid
Aquatic
Arctic
Aerial
Aetherial
(Volcanous)
(Dark)

Attacks can be:
Melee
Sound
Light
Wind
Fire
Electric
Ice
Water
Psychic
Poison

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:32:47 No.44039924 Report

Quoted By:

Well, because i'm more into making this kind of game more as rpg than lol competetive i'm not realy bothered with total balance. Tho every type would have some characteristics and things to do that other types would not.
EARTH - Defense, physicality, minor healing elements and stats manipulation.
WATER - non-physicality, more focus on healing but also bit of everything.
FIRE - non-physicality, offense, stat reducing.
WIND - physicality, speed, offense, evasion.
LIGHT and DARK - Have bit of everything, LIGHT is tho more into healing and defense and DARK is more into stat manipulation and offense.
Some kind of DIVINE type that would be ass-broken boss-only type to throw late-game at player.

I just realized that these are YGO attributes... oh well, fuck it. Basicaly my idea is to all types have actual roles and weak and strong sides. I'm kinda baffled when i see ppl getting spasms and autism because "MUH ELECTRIC TYPE HAS NO GOOD PHYSICAL ATTACK REEE" - yeah, that's the fucking point faggot. Electric's weak side is their mediocore at best physical presence.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:37:19 No.44039973 Report

Quoted By: >>44040437

>>44037172
The biggest things I would do is:
Don't use "non" elements like Bug, Ghost, Fairy, and Dragon. It's just bloat.
Get rid of the Wind element or equivalent. Wind is always a stretch when it comes to rationalizing their strengths and weaknesses. You could say that Wind beats Earth because of erosion and height advantage, but you could also just as easily say that Earth would be strong against Wind due to its weight and resilience against erosion. Being blasted or sliced by Wind just feels typeless; It's a force that doesn't really have any special or crazy properties. Plus you can always attribute another element to certain Wind-based attacks, such as blasts of hot or cold air, dust, smog, pollen, hurricanes, etc. and the few attacks that don't fit any other element would just be typeless.
Don't have elements that are strong against themselves and don't have a circle of only 2 elements that are strong against each other (Popular example being Light and Dark). There should always be at least 3 in a circle so that each element has a both weakness and a resistance (other than typeless).

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:39:48 No.44040003 Report

Quoted By:

>>44039641
Tried it as well. If you research the subject, you will realise that the only monster categories, throughout the world, have been:
Chimaeras-Dragons
Treants-Mandrakes
Spirits-Elves
Automatons-Golems

This may evolve into the following Effectiveness Circle:
Beast
^
Dragon
^
Fiend
^
Golem
^
Plant
^
Bug
^
Beast

I'm not married to this idea though. However, I wonder HOW could I incorporate elemental attacks or creatures of the same class but different Habitat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:42:57 No.44040040 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
Between megaten and pokemon, I feel like I wouldn’t want to remember another elemental rock-paper-scissors wheel. And if I’m a designer, I imagine others (consumers) would want something intuitive out of elemental type design. So, assuming that gamers come from an existing monster catching franchise, I feel it would be wisest to just lift the element system from pokemon, and eliminate dual-types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 22:50:33 No.44040114 Report

Quoted By:

>>44038254
This! There's no reason why ice shouldn't resist water and fire! Fire should be weak to both ice and water. Water should be weak to ice, because ice will lower the temp. and freeze the water, thus turning water against itself.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 23:17:52 No.44040437 Report

Quoted By: >>44040516 >>44042003

>>44039973
Okay here's the OG types
>Normal, Fire, Water, Grass, Flying, Fighting, Poison, Electric, Ground, Rock, Psychic, Ice, Bug, Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Dark and Fairy.
>minus bloat types
Normal, Fire, Water, Grass, Flying, Fighting, Poison, Electric, Ground, Rock, Psychic, Ice, Steel, Dark.
>minus 'wind' type, which is basically Flying type
Normal, Fire, Water, Grass, Fighting, Poison, Electric, Ground, Rock, Psychic, Ice, Steel, Dark.
>I think you could probably merge Rock and Ground to Earth
Normal, Fire, Water, Grass, Fighting, Poison, Electric, Earth, Psychic, Ice, Steel, Dark.

So Grass/Fire/Water, Fighting/Dark/Psychic, Earth/Steel/Ice, Normal, Poison, Ice?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 23:23:23 No.44040516 Report

Quoted By:

>>44040437
There's an interesting theme going here: (basic elements), (states of mind if we read psychic as bookish and dark as deviant minded), (location like cities, countrysides, wastelands), and pestulance (harmful to all life).

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 26 Jun 2020 23:58:32 No.44040883 Report

Quoted By: >>44040956 >>44041339 >>44042499

>>44037172
my take on this, 12 types, normal wouldn't be weak or super-effective against anything

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 00:04:36 No.44040950 Report

Quoted By: >>44040958

>>44037172
I would focus on creating related trios of types
Plant, Fire, and Water (Classic Elemental)
Body, Mind, Spirit (Martial Arts)
Ice, Earth/Stone, Metal(Ages of Humanity)
Air, Thunder, Space (All things humanity conquered relatively recently)
Toxin, Monster, and Healing(All aspects of classic myths)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 00:05:28 No.44040956 Report

Quoted By: >>44041031

>>44040883
I like it. It's simple though if you insist on having ice as well as grass, it will be weird if fire isn't se on both of them

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 00:05:40 No.44040958 Report

Quoted By:

>>44040950
I’m not sure if this is great though

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 00:11:56 No.44041031 Report

Quoted By:

>>44040956
I'd probably add more weaknesses, maybe each type gets 2 weaknesses and 2 resistances, with the center 4 remaining as is.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 00:43:25 No.44041339 Report

Quoted By: >>44041487 >>44041606 >>44042003

here's one I worked out earlier.
I got it down to 10 elements.
each element has the same number of weaknesses and advantages.

Fire, Water, Electric, Earth, Grass, Ice, as one group

Light, Darkness and Pyschic as a triangle
and I've realised my symbol for light looks like the normal type symbol, please ignore.

and Normal is by itself.

althugh I will say I like this person's chart >>44040883 , and 12 does provide more variety.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:03:21 No.44041487 Report

Quoted By:

>>44041339
I like this one a lot actually just for being simplistic and elegant.

Looking at them all individually yeah, all the matchups make sense and there don't seem to be any obvious logical issues as far as I can tell.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:20:30 No.44041606 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
This is one that I came up with after a fair amount of thought experiments, it is quite similar to >>44041339 though.

I was also considering a Metal and/or Fable element but I couldn't think of a good way to implement one without screwing up the balance.

As for other changes, the first thing I would do is get rid of dual types because while they are an interesting idea, they make balancing a nightmare.

I would also change it so that effective attacks only do 1.5x and resistant attacks do 0.8x and maybe have some kind of additional effect for effective moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:28:15 No.44041650 Report

Quoted By: >>44041685

>>44037172
I'd skip the rock-paper-scissors thing and instead focus on giving each type their own specific strategy. Pokemon kinda tried to have this, but now types feel more like "X color beats Y color"

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:34:43 No.44041685 Report

Quoted By:

>>44041650
I like the different play styles idea. Like what if only certain elements couldn't raise/lower stats? What if one element was unable to hold items but got some other advantage as a tradeoff? What if the nature-oriented element could talk to animals and have them assist you in battle?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:34:43 No.44041686 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
3 v 3 (or more) Real Time battles. Masters had a good idea

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:39:14 No.44041723 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
Major changes I would make would be simplicity:
>All monotype
>Less than 10 basic elements with basic relationships like OP
Temtem looks nice but they haven't made their elemental system simple. I like their idea of synchronization but I think it can be used to create a faux dual typing. Having monsters synchronize with certain elements, or even having elements synchronize with each other would be better than having it be only a specific battle condition

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 01:45:38 No.44041760 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037172
>ffxi-atlas
Great taste and R.I.P.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 02:16:24 No.44042003 Report

Quoted By:

>>44040437
Well, I meant for like a more traditional hypothetical RPG, so even then I'd still get rid of Fighting and Metal.
So in the end I'm left with: Water, Fire, Ice, Plant, Earth, Electric, Psyche, Poison, Light, Dark, and a Typeless element.
Those elements alone I feel like could be used to describe anything and everything. Even then you'd still might have to remove/add an element or two to be able to put everything in a circle that makes clear-cut sense. >>44041339 does a great job on this but the only thing I see as a stretch is Psychic beating Light.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 02:58:10 No.44042304 Report

Quoted By: >>44042311

If the Pokémon franchise started now it would be a failure, and one of the reasons would be the elemental system - there's too much tracking complexity for a RPS mechanic. So I wouldn't "change" it, I'd scrape it off and then borrow some ideas from Pokémon.

Ideas I'd borrow:
>species can have 0/1/2 elements
>STAB, weakness, resistance
>attacks have 0/1 elements, plus another category (praise the special/physical split!)

However elements wouldn't be a kitchen sink, elements wouldn't grant immunity, resistances and weaknesses would be mirrored; if A > B (A attacks are good against B mons), then B < A (B attacks are bad against A mons). I'd also make STAB stronger for a single element, and give mons with no element a weaker STAB for all of them.

Note also "normal" doesn't exist anymore - it's just lack of element, either for a mon or attack.

Two new concepts I'd implement are elemental groups and body type.

>Elemental groups
Consider the following simplified example:
>Energy - Fire, Electric, Ice...
>Mystic - Psychic, Dark, Holy...
>Nature - Water, Earth, Bio...
>...

Why would I do this? Because then I can have lots of elements but still reduce the tracking complexity. For example you don't need to remember "Psychic beats Water", "Dark beats Bio", "Psychic beats Bio" separately; just remember Mystic beats Nature.

Then inside those groups you'd have a second nested RPS system. Both Water and Earth are Nature, but Water beats Earth. (I can draw this shit if you guys want)

More to come.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 02:59:13 No.44042311 Report

Quoted By:

Same as >>44042304, cont.

>body type
This would be a separated concept from elements, but interacting with it.
A body type would grant some pseudo-STABs, access to moves, and even pinpointed elemental immunities.
For example, consider Flygon (element: Earth, body: Draco*). Here's how it would turn out:
>Draco: access to some Fire moves
>Draco: airborn, so not affected by grounded moves
>Draco: small boost to Wind-based moves
>Earth: wide range of Earth attacks
>Earth: STAB for Earth attacks
And by being Earth it has access to a wide range of Earth attacks, plus the STAB.

While this Charizard (element: Fire, body: Draco) would share with Flygon all Draco attributes, but it wouldn't get the Earth attributes, it would get Fire instead. It would have specially powerful Fire attacks, since both Draco and Fire boost it.

*Draco: just a temp name for hexapod European dragon-like bodies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 03:09:16 No.44042367 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037740
>ive never played an smt game, which is an adults pokemon

i cry for you

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 03:24:08 No.44042499 Report

Quoted By:

>>44040883
Another reason this works: 12 types allows for 8 gym leaders and 4 elite four members.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 03:42:31 No.44042655 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037377
Please post element/type charts from other franchises. I'm highly interested.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 03:42:43 No.44042658 Report

Quoted By:

>>44037287
Psychic and fairy are fairly redundant. Magic is magic. What use is there splitting it into categories?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 27 Jun 2020 03:45:02 No.44042685 Report

Quoted By:

>>44039514
This idea is good.

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