/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #44757957

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Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:17:32 No.44757957 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>44757973 >>44757985 >>44757998 >>44758017 >>44758023 >>44758036 >>44758080 >>44758671 >>44758677 >>44758739 >>44758754 >>44758812 >>44759602 >>44759673 >>44759785 >>44761482

How do you make the main series games more difficult without completely changing the fundamentals/competitive?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:21:20 No.44757973 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Give the AI decent movesets and pokemon variety. You don't even have to raise team levels, just look at USUM. Almost every totem Pokemon has plans to counter its weaknesses, and actually uses the plans well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:22:26 No.44757985 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Just look at any reasonable difficulty hack and do that
Drayano's shit isn't THAT hard but it's a step up above the base-game

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:24:29 No.44757998 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Remove critical hits.
Remove 4x weaknesses.
Make super effective hits only do 1.5 times the damage.
Make gyms centered about battle mechanics that aren't types (doubles gym, weather gym, etc)
Give AI trainers more variated teams with held items and better movesets. Maybe let they have a few more Pokemon too.
Better AI.
Force set battle style.
That should move the difficulty needle at least a bit.
Would probably turn competitive into stall hell, but as it is type effectiveness dominate the single player too much. It's basically a "click the super effective move" simulator.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:27:05 No.44758017 Report

Quoted By: >>44759707

>>44757957
Make Badges act as level cap. The tough fights are slightly above your level cap.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:27:42 No.44758023 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
hahahaha.. I don't really know

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:29:15 No.44758036 Report

Quoted By: >>44758732 >>44758875

>>44757957
- Better enemy team/move variety
- Better IVs and EVs for enemy pokemon
- Better enemy AI
- Giving enemy pokemon more items
- Limiting the amount of items the player can use in a given battle
- Level caps

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 15:34:57 No.44758080 Report

Quoted By: >>44758732

>>44757957
Have Ace Trainers and Gym Leaders challenge you to "official battles" where both sides have to use the same amount of Pokemon.
Have the evil team cheat, challenging you to doubles where the enemies have more than 6 pokemon total, starting horde battles where the grunts send 5 pokemon to fight yours, etc

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 16:51:52 No.44758671 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Bump

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 16:52:59 No.44758677 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
make sure the A.I. isn't programmed by the same retard who programmed Fallout76's... umm... everything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:01:17 No.44758732 Report

Quoted By:

>>44758036
>>44758080
OP here, I definitely think these two ideas together would instantly raise the difficulty in a fun way. More multi battles and enemy strategy would instantly help the games. Maybe even a non-held item limit?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:02:04 No.44758739 Report

Quoted By: >>44758854

>>44757957
You can't. Pokemon is still stuck using fundamentally broken 90s RPG design. To take an example: Drayano hacks are fun, but they still aren't very hard because healing is insanely plentiful, single battles are broken, and if worst comes to worst you can grind past your problems.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Colosseum_EN_boxart.png, 928KiB, 800x1119

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:05:20 No.44758754 Report

Quoted By: >>44758800

>>44757957
Just make the game all doubles :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:10:09 No.44758800 Report

Quoted By:

>>44758754
Unironically the right move

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:11:14 No.44758812 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Add variety of both singles and doubles
Give npcs held items as a norm and not as an exception
Let em have good movesets
Give them access to the generational gimmick(mega/z/dyna)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:15:13 No.44758854 Report

Quoted By: >>44758913 >>44758974

>>44758739
Pokemon wishes it was using pure 90s rpg design. Part of the problem with trying balance the difficulty of a pokemon game is that Pokemon is inherently symmetrical. Everything your opponents can do you can do to. This makes the power difference very small unless you're eother overleveled or underleveled, GF makes the games easy by not letting enemies use all the game's options the player has (enemies tend to have few pokemon, be monotype, not use items and held items, have shitty movesets, etc). Classic RPGs get their difficulty by A) attriction (tons of low power encounters in dungeons to waste your ressources and B) being unfair (the enemies have more HP than the player's HP cap, better stats than it's possible for the player, sometimes get more actions per turn than the player, have powers, abilities and immunities that are better than what the player has, etc). The second is mostly impossible to do in Pokemon, while the first is hindered by the fact wild Pokemon aren't that much weaker than your own Pokemon, do turning your average cave into a longer dungeon could make them unreasonably grueling even for the standards of particularly grindy snes jrpgs

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:18:00 No.44758875 Report

Quoted By:

>>44758036
In addition to this
-Gym leaders and important trainers have multiple versions of their team, so you can't simply just cteam them
-More gyms/bosses can engage you in different battle styles, such as double or triple battles
-Some important trainers can establish advantages for them pre-fight, such as the water gym leader having pre-set rain, electric gym having pre-set electric terrain, rock gym having an inverse field, etc.
-Using themes instead of monotypes for gyms, or making it so you can't breeze through a gym leader's team with a single attack
Enemy AI really need every advantage they can get to make battles fair in these games if you want to make it remotely challenging. The PC is just given too much leeway in these games.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:22:29 No.44758913 Report

Quoted By: >>44759520

>>44758854
>The second is mostly impossible to do in Pokemon
To be fair you kind of can do it, Eternamax was that (if ruined difficulty wise by the nature of the fight), Totems were sort of that, Lance's underlevelled Dragonites were tenuously that, and they can probably just make outright 'boss' Pokemon with a preset high amount of HP, ability to recover from status, etc.
It's just that the more you do that, the more kids will complain that they're not able to get things the computer has access to.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 17:31:54 No.44758974 Report

Quoted By:

>>44758854
I always thought about a hard mode romhack that made Pokemon more like classic RPGs. Have trainers in gyms reset so you have to fight them in all in one go, make it far more difficult to run from random encounters (while reducing their rate + making them varied so players don't ragequit) while allowing enemy AI to play more dirty.

But that would require some programming chops above your typical romhack, I'd imagine.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1533757331977.png, 518KiB, 799x665

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:35:49 No.44759520 Report

Quoted By: >>44759594

The underlying issues of symmetry, grinding and plentiful healing (so long as money is also easily accrued) are pretty much insurmountable, the latter makes Gyms possibly being all or nothing less of an issue, though that depends on how many items you thought to buy. But I wouldn't say that makes difficulty mods attempts to raise the bar on the bosses, attempt to keep you from sweeping with a single good type match up, and thus encourage using more Pokemon to turn the tide is a bad thing just because there are issues at the core. In general Pokemon can also have the frequent JRPG curve of difficulty being determined more by your lack of options than the opponents options, where your having more moves and access to much more money goes a long way (thinking of hacks in which accelerated leveling causes the last third of the game to be largely the same power level).

>>44758913
Prematurely evolved Pokemon actually does like an interesting workaround, which indeed Lance's early Dragonite's could demonstrate. Big Hand Eternatus's min-maxing was actually as good a solution as Pokemon's system allows, really, without creating an entirely new stat system for "boss types". I'm glad Game Freak figured it out even if they deliberately undermined it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:40:35 No.44759571 Report

Quoted By: >>44759616

No amie buffs

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:42:37 No.44759594 Report

Quoted By: >>44759674

>>44759520
>The underlying issues of symmetry, grinding and plentiful healing
You can solve the first by just giving the opponents better stuff than you/better moves/items.
Grinding can be solved by level caps.
Healing could be solved by item limiting in battle, likely to the amount your opponent can use.
It's not that hard, but it'd have to be limited to fangames. Kids wouldn't take well to those changes, I'd think.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:43:41 No.44759602 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Add a strict level cap or extreme exp penalty after a certain threshold based on number of badges.
Make it so you can't use potions, or at the very least, revives, during battle
Remove the shift option
Make all the gym leaders after the 2nd one use 6 Pokemon with non-garbage movesets.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:44:46 No.44759616 Report

Quoted By:

>>44759571
This is one I very much agree with. I love amie/refresh but sometimes I don't want to use them because they make the game so easy. That sucks because I love being able to feed and pet my pokemon. Amie should just allow you're pokemon to do certain visual things like making the pokemon give off hearts if you heal them, they shouldn't make them break the game with being able to survive attacks for no reason.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:49:32 No.44759673 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
-Better enemy AI and less monotype boss battles.
-Each story-important trainer has their own pool of mons to choose from so you can't out-predict them as easily.
-More gimmick battles.
-Flesh out Max Raids or totems into proper bosses with phases and some semblance of a strategy, even if it's just a "buff a couple times then attack" pattern or something.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:49:33 No.44759674 Report

Quoted By:

>>44759594
In reality, yes, though a difficulty toggle with very basic explainations explicitly marked for those who have played Pokemon before (as many other games phrase their options) would just be another afternoon in the trainer editor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 18:52:22 No.44759707 Report

Quoted By:

>>44758017
This is what pokemon Rejuvenation does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 19:00:49 No.44759785 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
>improved AI
>opponents use held items
>better opponent move sets
>reduce team Exp. gain and/or return to Gen 5 Exp. scaling and/or make Exp. Share optional (game built around it)
Basically just this stuff. Also, for better flavor:
>don’t expect players to win constantly - have some battles that can be lost permanently without a retry (like Blue’s first two battles in Gen 1)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 22:13:01 No.44761482 Report

Quoted By:

>>44757957
Bump

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 07 Sep 2020 23:18:49 No.44761976 Report

Quoted By:

A lot of "improved AI" posts here, but how exactly do you actually improve the AI?

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