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Did Ethan beat Red?

Anonymous Sun 01 Aug 2021 21:48:28 No.47773219 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>47774836 >>47775365 >>47775407 >>47776042 >>47776051 >>47778452 >>47778602 >>47778924 >>47779138 >>47779278 >>47780008

Is Ethan beating Red considered canon or not because it was only in the post-game? Are your achievements as a player considered canon in general? Or are they only canon when mentioned by an NPC (e.g. Gen 2 Blue mentioning that Red beat him in the league)? Would Nate/Rosa winning the PWT be considered canon? Discuss.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 01 Aug 2021 21:49:29 No.47773228 Report

Quoted By:

yeah. red fucked off to unova and alola in shame

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 01:08:22 No.47774836 Report

Quoted By: >>47775440 >>47776063 >>47778552

>>47773219
What happened to Ethan? Did he commit suicide at mt. silver? Did he leave Johto? Did he became trans and became Kris?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 02:13:38 No.47775365 Report

Quoted By: >>47775446

>>47773219
>Is Ethan beating Red considered canon or not because it was only in the post-game?
Its arguable. /vp/ considers it 100% canon no question solely because it makes Red look "bad" but other post-game things are disputed.
> Are your achievements as a player considered canon in general?
Its assumed that at least until you get to the credits yeah. There are instances in the main games(and particularly Masters) where then ex-champions act as if they were still champions, and also the only character actively refered to as champion in a game they didn't star in is Red.
>Would Nate/Rosa winning the PWT be considered canon?
Honestly, the only issue with the PWT is Giovanni. Dissing that, maybe.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 02:18:00 No.47775407 Report

Quoted By: >>47775446 >>47775459 >>47778572 >>47779268

>>47773219
>Are your achievements as a player considered canon in general?
Most likely not. If they were you would think they'd reference it more. I think the only protagonist's whose achievements were even mildly canon was Red, but given that legendaries that should canonically belong to him are still in the wild in other games, I'd venture to think even that has limitations

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 02:21:32 No.47775440 Report

Quoted By:

>>47774836
He retired to maintain his 100% winning record and to be remembered as a legendary trainer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 02:22:02 No.47775446 Report

Quoted By: >>47778572

>>47775365
>Honestly, the only issue with the PWT is Giovanni. Dissing that, maybe.
What do you mean the theory that he commited suicide after the Celebi event like the theory that Red died after his defeat on Mt. Silver or that it's unlikely that a known criminal could participate in it?
>>47775407
That's only in HGSS. In gold and Silver Mewtwo and the legendary birds aren't there anymore.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 02:23:06 No.47775459 Report

Quoted By: >>47779268

>>47775407
>legendaries that should canonically belong to him are still in the wild in other game
that can be written around without having to do too much heavy lifting. Could be any number of reasons that Red released Mewtwo and the birds at some point, and those are the only legendaries he could potentially catch in canon. In the later games it definitely feels more along the lines of legendary Pokemon allying with you at their pleasure. Calyrex and Zacian will obviously outlive the trainer, and if they had some other adventure they needed to attend to, presumably they could leave at any time. Also, it's not like protags are evil. If their legendary partners needed to leave, they'd let them.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Ehyl5RhU0AI2J5Q.jpg, 852KiB, 1830x2048

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 03:38:17 No.47776042 Report

Quoted By: >>47776108

>>47773219
Beating Red is non-optional for the final credits roll. Many optional things are non-canon for the sake of future games (such as catching all the legendaries), but meeting the minimum requirements for the credits to roll is always canon. That's not to say that Ethan is stronger than Red in general, but he definitely beat him at least that one time on Mt. Silver because that's the ultimate battle on his journey. Why would a game character canonically not have "beat the game" within their own universe?
The same goes for the rest of the series. Rosa/Nate would have beat Red in the PWT. Again, that doesn't mean that they're an overall stronger trainer than Red, but they're at least capable of beating him in a battle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 03:40:21 No.47776051 Report

Quoted By: >>47776069

>>47773219
Yes, and so are Nate/Rosa beating him as well as Elio/Selene doing the same

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 03:42:04 No.47776063 Report

Quoted By:

>>47774836
As a non-Red MC, nothing he did can ever be mentioned outside of the game it happened in it seems. None of them can be characters outside of masters or anime.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 03:43:00 No.47776069 Report

Quoted By:

>>47776051
Seems that he can be considered the player character Champion that's been defeated most by a longshot when counting post-game and by 1 loss when not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 03:46:57 No.47776084 Report

Quoted By: >>47776319

My headcanon is Ethan got knocked out during the battle and can't recall how it ended but he did in fact win.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 03:52:03 No.47776108 Report

Quoted By: >>47776317

>>47776042
Wh-what's he going to do with that rope?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 04:22:01 No.47776317 Report

Quoted By:

>>47776108
He's trying to figure out how to tie a noose for (You)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 04:23:02 No.47776319 Report

Quoted By:

>>47776084
That's a pretty autistic headcanon

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 05:15:09 No.47776597 Report

Quoted By: >>47779072

I'd like to think that anything story related is canon so Ethan and Elio/Selene did beat Red, while optional stuff like the Battle Frontier or PWT is up in the air whether MCs won them or not. The problem is Cynthia is always treated as the de facto Champion and that kinda invalidates Lucas's/Dawn's adventure, but it's not like they don't exist since Cynthia mentions them in BW. It's complicated for sure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 11:32:00 No.47778452 Report

Quoted By:

>>47773219
Of course achievements as the player are counted, especially since Red is basically the true final boss of the game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 11:57:46 No.47778552 Report

Quoted By: >>47779286

>>47774836
After winning, Red was freed from his post at the top of Mt Silver and Ethan was forced to take his place, where he still remains to this day until the next trainer can come and defeat him.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 12:07:01 No.47778572 Report

Quoted By: >>47779045

>>47775407
>Given that legendaries that should canonically belong to him are still in the wild in other games
Which are 0
>>47775446
>r or that it's unlikely that a known criminal could participate in it?
This, the other thing is BS

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 12:18:32 No.47778602 Report

Quoted By: >>47778639

>>47773219
>Are your achievements as a player considered canon in general
Every single pokemon game exists in its own parallel reality. This is why there are minor variations in pokemon, NPCs and plotlines between games of the same region and why legendaries that should only appear once (IE, Giratina) can appear multiple times (it's the same single legendary, you're just catching it in multiple parallel timelines). Your achievements are only canon to your own game, with the exception of the entralink bridging realities between BW and BW2 and ensuring that your experience in BW2 is a direct sequel and thus canonising your BW achievements in that timeline. Pocket reality theory also explains why remakes happen and retcons like fairy types can exist, which is something they do imply in gen 6.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 12:29:58 No.47778639 Report

Quoted By: >>47778649

>>47778602
>Every single pokemon game exists in its own parallel reality.
Please stop spreading misinformation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 12:34:39 No.47778649 Report

Quoted By: >>47778717 >>47778889

>>47778639
It's literally what Nintendo has said about the video game canon. I know that, for some stupid reason, /vp/ really wants to believe in crap like canon starters, canon versions, canon character names etc. But Nintendo has said that's all nonsense. Once again, 4chan retards are wrong about everything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 12:51:42 No.47778717 Report

Quoted By: >>47778820

>>47778649
>It's literally what Nintendo has said about the video game canon.
Source?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 13:10:55 No.47778820 Report

Quoted By: >>47778861 >>47778904

>>47778717
ORAS/SM/USM

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 13:20:33 No.47778861 Report

Quoted By:

>>47778820
The existence of a multiverse does not confirm or imply that every single game takes place in an independent variation of the universe separate from other entries.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO actualOldCanon.png, 35KiB, 761x246

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 13:27:17 No.47778889 Report

Quoted By: >>47778904

>>47778649
>It's literally what Nintendo has said about the video game canon.
Yeeeah... about that, Anon...
https://archive.is/D9iPz

And then there's ORAS->SM->SWSH.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 13:31:06 No.47778904 Report

Quoted By: >>47778945

>>47778820
Those games do not say that.
Please give a source or stop spreading misinformation.

>>47778889
ORAS is already addressed, that pic was made after Gen 1 and 2 remakes came out.
We don't know SWSH's placement yet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 13:35:40 No.47778924 Report

Quoted By:

>>47773219
Anything past gen 2 is not canon anyway, so it's not like it matters who won

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 13:39:44 No.47778945 Report

Quoted By: >>47779026

>>47778904
Linear placement no, but unless there's a reference to Megas, I think we can say that it takes place in the universe where Megas don't exist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:00:09 No.47779026 Report

Quoted By: >>47779168

>>47778945
>A feature has to be mentioned for it to happen in the same world
Stop. YOu've been with this shit since 2016, not to mention there's more than one world without megas confirmed.
Play the games, read the text and don't spread misinformation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:04:28 No.47779045 Report

Quoted By: >>47779066

>>47778572
>This, the other thing is BS

Maybe Unova does noes extradite. Also if the Poekmon world is anything like how humans act in real life you'd have people who are willing to put aside a person's illicit activities if you want to see them perform.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:09:28 No.47779066 Report

Quoted By:

>>47779045
>Maybe Unova does noes extradite.
Its on the same country where Giovanni did his crimes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:10:13 No.47779072 Report

Quoted By:

>>47776597
>The problem is Cynthia is always treated as the de facto Champion and that kinda invalidates Lucas's/Dawn's adventure

Not really, Lance is champion in Gen 2 despite being beaten by Blue and Red. Blue is just a gym leader, and Red might not be part of the actual League at all(since the 8 badges just grants you access to Mt. Silver, no one says you have to go fight Red.)

Presumably all your player characters are out there in the world continuing their journey

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:23:33 No.47779138 Report

Quoted By: >>47779163

>>47773219
Making anything "canon" is a potent thing because it ruins the fun of anyone having their own team. The whole point of red's team was that it was all Pokemon most yellow players would have at least prevos of. In later games they even remove Espeoon in favor of Lapras because Espeon implies Red had decided what to evolve his Eevee into, which distances him from being any player. You don't necessarily have to believe thats what team he used in the Elite Four or in his entire journey; if you wanted him to have your team in head canon, or fight the E4 with 6 level 100 Weedles, go on. But by making Red have a team it ruined the mystique of the player character. It had the opposite effect of what they intended because now Red absolutely was the silent type, had a set of Pokemon, and had a set story. Thats why I think they avoided doing that again.

Also, has it ever been confirmed in canon that Red completed the Kanto Pokedex?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:28:00 No.47779163 Report

Quoted By: >>47779996

>>47779138
>it ruins the fun of anyone having their own team
It really doesn't. If you're retarded that's on you.
>The whole point of red's team was that it was all Pokemon most yellow players would have at least prevos of.
Its amazing how you missed the point despite your first statement.
>has it ever been confirmed in canon that Red completed the Kanto Pokedex?
No.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:28:37 No.47779168 Report

Quoted By: >>47779193

>>47779026
I'm saying that there's no evident reason to believe that they take place in a universe that has Megas if they haven't been mentioned in any context inclusive of DLC. They are a multi-region phenomenon and the games are very cross-referential. I haven't been here since 2016 and I'm not spreading misinformation. On the note of misinformation: Where has there been a confirmation of more than one world without Megas in the mainline games? This is assuming you're not the same guy that pointed at ORAS/SM/USM for the last point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:32:45 No.47779193 Report

Quoted By: >>47779340

>>47779168
>there's no evident reason to believe that they take place in a universe that has Megas if they haven't been mentioned in any context inclusive of DLC
There's no need for it. You arbitrarily decided that there was but that's not the game's problem.
> They are a multi-region phenomenon
So are HMs, doens't mean they have to be in every region
>the games are very cross-referential.
There's being cross-referential and there's literally having to reference every single thing which was never the case as anyone who played the games would know.
>and I'm not spreading misinformation
Yes, you are. You've been at this since then. I don't understand the point but I care more about having proper lore discussions than whatever the fuck you want.
>Where has there been a confirmation of more than one world without Megas in the mainline games?
BW, which, again, you would already know if you actually cared about the lore.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:49:23 No.47779268 Report

Quoted By:

>>47775459
>>47775407
It's also worth mentioning that to beat RBY, you don't have to catch any of the legendaries
You do, however, have to beat the Elite 4

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:50:23 No.47779278 Report

Quoted By:

>>47773219
I would say he did because you can't finish the game without doing so.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 14:51:30 No.47779286 Report

Quoted By:

>>47778552
You know what would be kino? Multi battle with him and Red.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 15:01:02 No.47779340 Report

Quoted By: >>47779433

>>47779193
Again, there's nothing at all pointing to Gen 8 taking place in a world with Megas. Not in lore, in narrative, in items, or in NPC dialogue so far as I know. HMs aren't some existential concept and are a false equivalence. They're a gameplay feature that involve Pokemon using a move to deal with a non-battle context. Many of the relevant moves still exist and that functional context still exists in the world even when they aren't an option. The games don't have to reference every single thing, but the lack of reference means that there's nothing that indicates the games take place in the contexts where they exist. You're implying I'm your personal boogie man and getting rabid about your baggage, but I haven't been on these boards that far back and even argued against the suggestion of every game definitively taking place in their own self-contained universes. I'm not interested in your idea of a proper lore discussion. I'm also not getting how BW confirm a set of separate worlds unless you yourself are making a leap with the version differences.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 15:21:31 No.47779433 Report

Quoted By:

>>47779340
>Again, there's nothing at all pointing to Gen 8 taking place in a world with Mega
Its not needed though.
> HMs aren't some existential concept
Neither are megas, its not a false equivalency. YOu just arbitrarily decided megas were where you draw the line.
>They're a gameplay feature
So are megas
> The games don't have to reference every single thing
Exactly, this is the base of your entire argument so you're basically saying I'm correct, thanks.
> I'm not interested in your idea of a proper lore discussio
It's not "my idea". A healthy fanbase would laugh you off for implying youtube theories are a source.
> I'm also not getting how BW confirm a set of separate worlds
Its literally stated in the cell battery subquest which you would know if you actually cared about any sort of lore and didn't just want to spread bs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 16:46:45 No.47779996 Report

Quoted By: >>47780526

>>47779163
>It really doesn't. If you're retarded that's on you.

These games are for kids, especially early on. The whole thought process behind Red's team seems to be not to upset any kids by "canonizing" any one team except the gift Pokemon. It still implies Red actually used them which is a degree of characterization still which GameFreak tries to avoid with playable characters. Its not upsetting to a reasonable person but a younger, more impressionable kid might see it and consider red's team as the "right" way to play Gen 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 16:48:36 No.47780008 Report

Quoted By: >>47780082 >>47780526 >>47780847

>>47773219
Why was red in mount silver in the first place instead of going to johto and catching the pokemon there, and why did he become such a reclusive fuck?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 16:57:54 No.47780082 Report

Quoted By:

>>47780008
Mt. Silver IS Johto, thats why so many Johtomons are there. The Elite Four are in Kanto

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 17:45:25 No.47780526 Report

Quoted By:

>>47779996
> a younger, more impressionable kid might see it and consider red's team as the "right" way to play Gen 1.
No, most kids are already smarter than the average pokemon fan.
>>47780008
According to masters, to battle.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO MtSilver.png, 13KiB, 320x288

Anonymous Mon 02 Aug 2021 18:27:43 No.47780847 Report

Quoted By:

>>47780008
>Why was red in mount silver in the first place instead of going to johto
What did you mean by this, retardbro?

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