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946KiB, 3574x3299, butterfree.png

Anonymous Mon 31 Oct 2022 23:26:56 No.51813146 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>51813163 >>51813221 >>51813266 >>51813282 >>51813502 >>51813609

How would Gen 8 Butterfree fare if transported back into gen 1?

Let's assume Butterfree had it's abilities, it's modern movepool, and modern stats. But no items, no dynamax, and gen 1 type matchups.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 31 Oct 2022 23:29:03 No.51813163 Report

Quoted By:

>>51813146
>Slightly worst spore with quiver dance
Busted

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 31 Oct 2022 23:33:24 No.51813200 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 31 Oct 2022 23:37:15 No.51813221 Report

Quoted By:

>>51813146
There's actually a couple of odd issues with Butterfree in hindsight but modern Butterfree is already a pretty good mon.
Even ignoring compound eyes, quiver+sleep is an incredible combo(but with compound it becomes monstrous). Course even with modern moves, gen 1 means that bug buzz would still be phys.
This also goes for flying, overall quiver butterfree wouldn't be boosting any stab options; though bug coverage would probably be welcome due to psychic meta.

Gen 1 is also overall just more bulky and has the super fucked up "wastes a turn on wake up" sleep so what is already insanely busted in singles non-sleep clause formats becomes utterly gamebreaking.
It'd probably be unbeatable as a mon. I'm not sure if bug coverage could bypass normal "amnesia" options just because of how butterfree is and i'm too lazy to check really.

Quiver+Powder is an AG staple for a reason(Butterfree just suffers from being literally power crept by Vivilion), but even with sleep clause this probably is retarded. This is probably a new member of the ubers finally making it a trio rather than a duo.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 31 Oct 2022 23:41:45 No.51813266 Report

Quoted By:

>>51813146
Bug buzz, air slash, shadow ball… all physical, so not running stab
So it would run psychic/energy ball/electroweb coverage. But with tinted lens does it really need more than one move? Psychic is only needed for Gengar (no one running machamp/Weezing etc), and no quad resist to Grass being common in OU other than other Butterfree (Moltres, Venusaur, Beedrill,…)
Could run sleep powder with tinted lens even but you’ll want to run Compound Eyes
Still very physically frail with snorlax and tauros everywhere

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 31 Oct 2022 23:43:29 No.51813282 Report

Quoted By: >>51813420

>>51813146
why the fuck would it have an ability but no item retard, anyway
>Bug Buzz and Air Slash are good moves, but coming from that 45 base Attack
>Confide however sounds like a good option, lowering both Sp.Atk and Sp.Def
>Dream Eater coupled to Sleep Powder is also extremely sick in a game where only Psychic resists it.
>Quiver Dance + Roost is strong, in a game where all Electric, Fire and Ice moves are Special.
>buffed Giga Drain sounds good too, as it nearly OHKOs Rhydon and Golem, which are the good Rock types.
The best set I can come up with is:
Sleep Powder | Quiver Dance | Dream Eater/Giga Drain | Confide/String Shot

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:02:27 No.51813420 Report

Quoted By: >>51813589

>>51813282
Not sure i understand the "logic" of the debuffs rather than just running roost or coverage(suppose you have jack shit beyond shit like thief or electroweb though).
There's not much your gaining from forcing a switch that you wouldn't from just boosting in their face.

Giga seems to be the logical main move though yeah, i'm not sure about dream eater as it feels too winmore. The only real thing its doing is punishing lax realistically.
Because nobody in their right mind is keeping a mon in on the quiver mon in a format where sleep doesn't allow you to have lucky moments.

Psychic still threatens a 2HKO at +6 and overall is less of a gimmick, Lax is still going to be an awful matchup regardless. Mostly because of slam para though.
I suppose the Golem/Rhydon is dependent on what Giga Drain it gets, but Giga Drain is a "new gen" move so its either or. If it is modern drain though; its a OHKO at +1.
Any sort of special attacker just can't do anything, and even Tauros has some issues because Hyper Beam isn't an instant one shot or anything.

So it only really loses to chansey and snorlax from what i can see.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:17:19 No.51813502 Report

Quoted By:

>>51813146
>Gets in on any mon slower than it
>Sleep powder
>Quiver
>You can now insta sleep anything that switches in
Without sleep clause you have the most powerful pokemon in the series

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO jolteonspeedfuckery.png, 3KiB, 1067x28

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:31:29 No.51813589 Report

Quoted By: >>51813622

>>51813420
Oh yeah, you'd definitely consider Electroweb instead of whatever autistic shit I was on.
didn't put Roost because overlap draining moves, but instant recovery is literally always a good option
I guess I also forgot about Sleep Clause, because y'know I was talking about the fucking game

It loses pretty hard to Jolteon too. Funny because it's literally ONE SINGLE speed point away from speed tie after a Quiver

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:35:32 No.51813609 Report

Quoted By:

>>51813146
She would lose all reasons to continue living without her Obstagoon husband at her side

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:36:57 No.51813622 Report

Quoted By: >>51813652

>>51813589
In the actual game there's a big difference yeah, Egg/Snorlax also lose to it because there is nothing in the game that can handle it.
Jolteon wins in sleep clause land but its a lot more iffy in normal gameplay.
>Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. +1 Butterfree: 170-200 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ultimately the second Butterfree hits +2 in non-sleep clause formats the game is literally over.(well outside of a random stray miss, as minor as that chance is) Jolteon only wins if butterfree takes a big hit before it sleeps the active and then quivers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:41:25 No.51813652 Report

Quoted By: >>51813683

>>51813622
pretty much. I still wonder why Game Freak didn't bother balancing Sleep yet, honestly.
And I don't think replacing it with Paralysis 2.0 like in PLA is a good way to go about it

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:46:41 No.51813683 Report

Quoted By: >>51813755

>>51813652
Paralysis in general is pretty crummy as a mechanic. So obviously "Para but hits defenses" wasn't going to work.
Having them all be damage over time would be sorta boring and i can't really think of any good effects really.

Maybe drowsy could give you a sort of lagging tail effect instead of being paralysis? And just have the "sleep" moves ignore that part.
Sleep as a mechanic is definitely way too much of a mess though yeah.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO sleep_rbygsc.png, 5KiB, 294x139

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 00:58:23 No.51813755 Report

Quoted By: >>51813818

>>51813683
My basic bitch "fix" to sleep is just:
- all sleep moves have -1 Priority, but at minima 70% Accuracy (except Yawn of course)
- sleep is always 2 turns (or 2-3, if you really want the RNG on it)
- unless the Pokemon has Early Bird ability, in which case it's always 1.
- like in PLA, using Electric moves makes you wake up

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 01:06:02 No.51813818 Report

Quoted By: >>51813884

>>51813755
While the variability is shitty, ultimately i think the end point is the issue. The classic Vivilion set of sub/roost/hurricane/quiver still eats ass because generally it already needs to eat a hit on that initial turn anyway.
Sleep is normally a very instant fuck you button that gives you 2ish free turns that can't really be stopped by most mons. Technically powder moves have multiple flaws but its counters are relatively niche.

Maybe i'm wrong but i don't know if i trust the -1 priority to really balance it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 01 Nov 2022 01:18:45 No.51813884 Report

Quoted By:

>>51813818
I mean yeah if you have a specifically bulky slow fag like Amoonguss then yeah the -1 priority doesn't change shit about it
But I don't think the point is to make Sleep fucking ass either, it still needs to be advantageous enough.

another way to balance it would MAYBE be to make Sleep moves always fail when selected while the target is asleep.
What I mean by this is shit like:
>Turn 1 - Amoonguss vs Seismitoad
Seismitoad uses some move that Amoonguss doesn't die to, Amoonguss puts Seismitoad to sleep
>Turn 2 - Amoonguss vs Seismitoad
As Seismitoad is asleep, Amoonguss's Spore will always fail - even if Seismitoad switches out on something that fucks Amoonguss real hard

Then again, I forgot team preview was a thing so this does not mean anything, as Amoonguss will always switch out on Turn 2 instead of autistically clicking Spore expecting a switch. Fuck team preview.
this idea also mostly balances fast sleepers more than anything I guess. Maybe I'm too retarded to see how stupidly good Amoonguss is, eh~

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