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Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 08:58:00 No.52369256 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>52369289 >>52369311 >>52369319 >>52369413 >>52369586 >>52369733 >>52369770 >>52371052

Sorry for the retarded question but why does everyone think Ice is a strong offensive type when it's resisted by both water and steel, two top defensive types?
Even before Freeze-Dry it was always considered a top offensive type, I just can't see why.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:00:55 No.52369278 Report

Quoted By:

for dragon and ground types
i would say fairy and steel are better now

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:01:18 No.52369279 Report

Quoted By:

Because it's strong and has a good priority move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:02:11 No.52369289 Report

Quoted By: >>52369310

>>52369256
Literally just because it hits power types, dragon, ground and flying are all top tier typings.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:05:15 No.52369310 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369289
pretty much this. running ice beam just gives you a very nice answer to a lot of the bigger threats youd face, so ice has a lot of offensive utility

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:05:19 No.52369311 Report

Quoted By: >>52369337

>>52369256
Because it pairs well with either ground or electric (or water if using Freeze-Dry) for near-perfect coverage, a lot of strong mons are 4x weak to it, 4x resists are rare, it has no immunities except Shedinja, a lot of strong water and steel types are actually neutral to it due to their secondary type, it has a priority move in Ice Shard, Freezehax is always a possibility and most of its moves are reliable and spammable (unlike, say, Stone Edge which is why rock is not considered as strong offensively despite having less resists).

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:06:05 No.52369319 Report

Quoted By: >>52369351 >>52369410

>>52369256
>Hit ground: belongs to strong Pokémon like landorus, Garchomp, etc and earthquake stab makes it popular.
>Hit Dragon: Most of the box legendaries and pseudo legandaries are dragon and stats speak for themselves.
>Hit flying: the type immune to earthquake and a generally good type that’s common on some good Pokémon
>Hit grass: Less good but it’s a starter type that has some good reps
Basically it fucks a lot of good Pokémon with common coverage moves being available to patch up weaknesses. Also notable that the best offensive type combination is Fighting Ice since that’s super effective against 599 Pokémon, over 50% of the Dex, and is only resisted by 51 Pokémon, a little over 4%. Unfortunately this type only belongs to crabominable, a slow physical attack who has a weakness to six types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:09:10 No.52369337 Report

Quoted By: >>52369366

>>52369311
Also, note how every single type ice is NVE against just so happens to be a type water has an advantage against. Almost every water type has ice coverage. This is a big reason why water has always been strong and has stepped all over ice's feet for so long. The devs seem to have caught on this starting from around gen 6 or 7, so very slowly ice is becoming its own type instead of being water's bitch.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:10:42 No.52369351 Report

Quoted By: >>52369451

>>52369319
How bulky would a fighting ice type have to be to be considered a decent wall? Aurora Veil is a good start but still. I was theorycrafting a fakemon that had something like Slacking/Palafin stats and a ability that gives all its damage moves negative priority and I was thinking about how to balance it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:11:43 No.52369366 Report

Quoted By: >>52369385

>>52369337
Well, water now has lost it's burn hax and Ice has the strongest one in the game, so it's getting there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:13:49 No.52369385 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369366
There have been several subtle nerfs to water.
Freeze-Dry was the first obvious one, now Salt Cure too.
Sheer Cold received an accuracy nerf if used by non-ice types in gen 7 I think, clearly meant for the likes of Suicune and Kyogre.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:17:11 No.52369410 Report

Quoted By: >>52369467

>>52369319
>Ice/Fighting
>Technician
>Mixed attacker with at least usable speed
>Ice Shard, Mach Punch, Freeze Dry, Storm Throw, Frost Breath
I know I'm just theorycrafting but this would be fucking horrifying to deal with.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:17:47 No.52369413 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369256
There's more Pokemon weak to ice than any other type.
Plus, Dragon, Flying, Grass, and Ground are all extremely relevant threads.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:22:46 No.52369444 Report

Quoted By: >>52369487

In gen 1 ice outclassed water both offensively AND defensively.
Dragonfags complain about Fairy, but Ice received the worst type nerf of all time in Gen 2. It still managed to remain a strong offensive type at least.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:23:15 No.52369451 Report

Quoted By: >>52369517

>>52369351
Making an ice-type wall honestly seems like a lost cause.
GF has been trying it for years and it's never worked out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:25:17 No.52369467 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369410
Notable I think that freeze dry makes it so that only 25 Pokémon resist stab from this hypothetical Pokémon. This sounds very horrifying.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:26:59 No.52369487 Report

Quoted By: >>52369527 >>52369541

>>52369444
Thinking about it, ice essentially got two new weaknesses and resists in gen 2. I get it was weak to fighting in gen 1 but gen 1 fighting was irrelevant. Thinking like that, maybe three new weaknesses since fire also sucked in gen 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:29:53 No.52369517 Report

Quoted By: >>52370118

>>52369451
The only way I can think of is some ability that auto sets AV and that’s ripe for abuse with switch out moves. Less of a wall at that point of more of a screen setter. Even with slacking defense it’s not gonna live that long. It really says something that ice as a defensive typing is so bad that even pairing it with steel or dragon not only doesn’t save it but arguably makes it worse.

Side note: I really hope GF trolls at some point by making a Shedinja regional variant/ some other Pokémon with its ability and gives it Ice Grass type.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:30:50 No.52369527 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369487
Fire weakness was also irrelevant, fire types were shit tier.
Rock weakness only mattered when switching into Golem or Rhydon. All ice types outspeeded and OHKOd them in return.
Freeze immunity was also extremely relevant.
After Normal and Psychic, Ice is universally agreed to be the third best type in gen 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:31:38 No.52369541 Report

Quoted By: >>52369639 >>52369646

>>52369487
Was fire really bad back then? I thought it was good then again maybe that’s just Charizard brain talking

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:35:26 No.52369586 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369256
>Ground/flying
Because it's strong against LANDORUS

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:40:34 No.52369639 Report

Quoted By: >>52369650

>>52369541
Freeze was so powerful to the point that running fire coverage with the risk of thawing them out was considered dumb.
Most Fire types had HORRID movepools (fire+normal basically), water and ground types were everywhere and offensively the only relevant type they were SE against was grass, which was already weak to ice, which every water type ran (sometimes foregoing their own water STAB).
Fire was worse in gen 1 than ice was in gen 4-5 (ice's lowest point).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:41:32 No.52369646 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369541
Doesn't have many good resists, weak to a lot of common coverage moves, fire moves have unfortunate side effects like causing burn which means an important enemy pokemon can't get hit with paralysis/freeze. On top of that, freeze was basically a KO in gen 1 and you risk unfreezing them if one of their frozen mons switches into something like Flamethrower or Fire Blast. The best aspect of Fire was Fire Spin being an annoying as fuck move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:42:11 No.52369650 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369639
Huh, interesting. Thanks

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:50:53 No.52369733 Report

Quoted By: >>52369771 >>52369806

>>52369256
Because it's strong against dragon, flying and ground
Dragon mons are usually pseudo legendaries and every team want a ground and a flying type because of how prevalent earthquake and volt switch are.
Also it's not that simple, ice isn't a good stab type but it's a god tier coverage type (which is the opposite of Ghost).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:54:47 No.52369770 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369256
Dragon, dummy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:54:49 No.52369771 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369733
Ice STAB nets KOs that non-STAB can only dream of. This is why nobody runs Ice Shard on Donphan.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 09:58:04 No.52369806 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369733
Ghost is a weird type. I feel like it's broken as fuck, but it's held back partially because most ghost moves are low on power.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 10:35:03 No.52370118 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369517

But this shedinja gets 2hp, sturdy, and put weakness policy on it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 27 Nov 2022 12:48:32 No.52371052 Report

Quoted By:

>>52369256
Ice took a hit offensively with the introduction of Fairy types, but in return it gained Freeze-Dry. Kyurem and Bundle have shown what happens when this move is given to a strong special attacker that is either bulky enough to offset ice's weak defensive typing, or fast enough that it can kill things before it gets killed in return.

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