/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #52723198

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Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:33:35 No.52723198 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>52723241 >>52723268 >>52723377 >>52723503 >>52723589 >>52725215 >>52726120 >>52727782 >>52727812

Who wins?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:36:22 No.52723240 Report

Quoted By: >>52723263

Zacian > mega fug > miraidon > mewtwo
Mewtwo isnt shit anymore

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:36:29 No.52723241 Report

Quoted By: >>52723263

>>52723198
whoever wins, we lose
but probably zacian
mewtwo and that new mon suck ass compared to her and mega fug, and with those two it just comes down to type matchups

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:38:53 No.52723263 Report

Quoted By: >>52723307 >>52723437

>>52723240
>>52723241
This is Gen 1 Mewtwo with 154 Special Defense and Amnesia being Nasty Plot + Amnesia

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:39:32 No.52723268 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
Zacian above all, Miraidon 2nd place, then Mega Fug

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:42:41 No.52723307 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723263
Still dies to mega fug and sword dog. You might aswell pray for a crit instead of using amnesia.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:46:51 No.52723365 Report

Quoted By: >>52725228

252 SpA Choice Specs Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 654-770 (186.3 - 219.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:48:25 No.52723377 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
Zacian is the queen and Mega Ray is the king. I bet these two will never become dethroned

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:48:41 No.52723385 Report

Quoted By:

Zacian > Miriadon > Mega fug > regular mewtwo
Zacian is just dumb. Miriadon oneshots and outspeeds mega fug with draco meteor even running timid. Mega fug could run some dumb max hp max spdef set but even then choice specs draco still oneshots. Its funny that mega fug is number 3 these days

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:48:56 No.52723390 Report

Quoted By: >>52723429

could mega-fug tera type into flying and have no weaknesses?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:52:18 No.52723429 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723390
In OPs scenario, mega fug cannot tera

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:53:56 No.52723437 Report

Quoted By: >>52723459

>>52723263
Even if you calculate it under Gen I conditions Mewtwo is still getting its ass kicked in:
>+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo: 279-328 (67 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(with Behemoth Blade being the strongest attack in that set against Mewtwo)
>252 SpA Mewtwo Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 99-117 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 40.3% chance to 3HKO
(with Thunderbolt being the strongest attack in that set against Mewtwo)

A lot of what made Gen I Mewtwo so dominant was that Dark and Steel didn't exist and there wasn't anything that even came remotely close to it. A Gen VIII legendary that's been given a healthy dose of GF's powercreep out the ass is more than able to outmatch it. Even if you ran Fire Blast Mewtwo for some reason (which the OP doesn't list anyway), it still wouldn't OHKO without an Amnesia first and Zacian is faster anyway.
There's nothing impressive about Gen I Mewtwo by today's standards when Game Freak not only nerfed him pretty hard in Gen II but they've also just thrown out any attempts at balance out the window with Gen VI. It's still probably the strongest single Pokemon within a single generation, but take it out of that single generation and it's paste.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:56:24 No.52723459 Report

Quoted By: >>52723494

>>52723437
>but take it out of that single generation and it's paste.
That's pretty true, even in the immediate next generation it's not even the #1 compared to Snorlax already, and that's not even a true ubers mon

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:59:22 No.52723494 Report

Quoted By: >>52723564

>>52723459
So youre telling me we could drop Mewtwo into GSC OU, and it wouldnt change much?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 04:59:47 No.52723503 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
Gen1 Mewtwo that can Mega Evolve though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 05:04:57 No.52723564 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723494
No, because even Gen II Mewtwo with the Special nerf and introduction of Steel/Dark is still the 2nd best Pokemon in the entire generation and he's still banned to Ubers. Just the fact that it's no longer the absolute best though (#1 is Snorlax) despite Mewtwo itself only getting a Sp. Def. drop should be proof enough though that a lot of Gen I Mewtwo's huge feats come from Gen I mechanics moreso than really anything else

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 05:06:45 No.52723589 Report

Quoted By: >>52723773 >>52724086 >>52724199

>>52723198
Is Miraidon that good?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 05:13:06 No.52723647 Report

Quoted By:

Because we're already playing the game of ifs, if Miraidon was in Gen 8 and got Rising Voltage it would have murdered everything. Modest Scarf Miraidon outspeeds any Zacian and gets a guaranteed KO with Rising Voltage.
>252+ SpA Life Orb Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 386-456 (118.7 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thunder is a 62.5% chance to OHKO Zacian
I put a life orb because showdown calc doesn't account for the 33% SpA raise from Hadron Engine in Electric Terrain and the 30% from Life Orb was close enough

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 05:19:36 No.52723713 Report

Quoted By: >>52724914

>in terms of power over their respective tier
mewtwo> mega ray> miraidon> zacian
>currently, with all having access to megas/ z moves/ tera (but being able to use only one)
zacian> mega ray> mewtwo> miraidon
>zacian does need its item, so z moves are kinda hard to justify but even normal zacian with a z move would be great, that being said zacian crowned with tera is terrifying
>mega ray stays the same, mega without an item is still OP
>mewtwo wins two megas, access to z moves and tera while having the deepest movepool of them all; no idea where to place it
>miraidon has no mega, and i doubt z moves would push it higher

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 05:25:11 No.52723773 Report

Quoted By: >>52723930

>>52723589
kills everyting not ground with electro drift, for them it has draco, and for pesky steels that may resist electric it has overheat; that coming from a mon that both sets electric terrain and gets boosted by it; 135 spa doesn't sound that high until you realize it has a shit ton of multipliers

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 05:41:01 No.52723930 Report

Quoted By: >>52724722

>>52723773
to explain the multipliers
>electro drift gets boosted by 33% if it's super effective
>electric terrain boosts 30% electric attacks
>hadron energy boosts 33% spa
>+ 50% stab
at that point you are taking more than 3 times the original damage, of course, that would mean electro drift is super effective so it would be actually at least 6 times, but even without stab nor being super effective it gets a 70% boost, so it is a 170 bp move without any drawbacks; you may think it's still a bit less than zacian, but zacian needed its item to hit that hard; those calcs are pre life orb/specs and pre tera

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 06:01:51 No.52724086 Report

Quoted By: >>52724722

>>52723589
>+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 330-388 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
>252 SpA Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 372-438 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
but miraidon isn't using an item (hadron engine and electro drift don't work in the damage calculator yet for some reason)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 06:16:04 No.52724199 Report

Quoted By: >>52724722

>>52723589
It's pretty ridiculous.
>base SpA is 135
>ability summons electric terrain AND gives 1.3x SpA boost in it
>electric terrain boosts power of electric moves by another 1.3x
>signature move is 100 BP electric move that gets 1.3x stronger if it's super effective
>STAB on top of that
>it can also hold an item
I wouldn't say it's better than Zacian overall, but it's up there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 07:48:35 No.52724722 Report

Quoted By: >>52724802 >>52724916 >>52726165

>>52723930
>>52724086
>>52724199
>tl;dr Miraidon get multipliers out the ass

I seriously don't understand Gamefreak mindset. It seem like they half ass their balancing when it come to Pokémon especially box legendaries. You have Koraidon, they could have easily made it into a fire type, but no, fighting. You'll think it's balance until you see the other legendary and make you go, "How is that fair?". Seriously, this is the Groudon vs Kyorge all over again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 08:06:55 No.52724802 Report

Quoted By:

>>52724722
It's weird because GF also pretends to be fair in other regards.
Zacian and Zamazenta are a prime example.
Both have 720 BST and both have an ability that gives +1 to a stat on switch-in.
But Zacian is way better because its stats are better distributed and +1 Atk is better than +1 Def.
And their performances in VGC make this inequality clear.
But because they're counterparts, Zamazenta gets the same nerfs as Zacian. -20 BST and the ability only activates once.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 08:30:30 No.52724914 Report

Quoted By: >>52724964 >>52725069

>>52723713
a mega version of genwun mewtwo would be fucking insane.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 08:30:41 No.52724916 Report

Quoted By:

>>52724722
Groudon could partially mitigate its Water weakness with Drought and could also fuck Kyogre on switch-ins with Thunder Wave and/or Thunder. And GF decided to over-correct it’s mistake a decade later with Primal Groudon. But I do agree their balancing has always been shit and as a result most VGCs are complete crap. Same goes for the TCG.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 08:42:57 No.52724964 Report

Quoted By: >>52724986

>>52724914
>Y gives it +70 Special total, +10 speed as well
This fucker will die to nothing. It can run psychic, recover, amnesia, and literally any fighting type move, because it still gets +40 Atk
They nerfed its defense, and thought that was fine. The only way to kill it is to drop a whole ass electrode and explode it. And even then, it might not kill. 106 HP, 70 Def, off a neutral hit. If it lives, it kills. Yes, you can priority it, but you are bringing two useless fucking pokemon to deal with Mega Genwun Mewtwo Y.
It could probably kick snorlax in half, in gen 2.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 08:49:40 No.52724986 Report

Quoted By:

>>52724964
>Mewtwo Psychic vs. Snorlax: 232-273 (44.3 - 52.1%) -- 15.8% chance to 2HKO

This Genwun MegatwoY can fucking crush a snorlax. It will waste 5 psychic PP at most, but it can crush a snorlax. It also runs Hyper Beam, because with its 150 Atk, it can punch through near anything and have the turn after to fight even more

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:16:05 No.52725069 Report

Quoted By: >>52725114 >>52727337

>>52724914
>effectively 854 BST
>27.34% crit rate
>every stat has 252 EV's (no nature boost though)
>immunity to Ghost
>Amnesia acts like 2 calm minds
Are we also letting it keep the 90% accuracy Blizzard with permanent freeze and Recover with 32 max PP?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:26:29 No.52725107 Report

Quoted By: >>52725138

Are we talking like, in gen 9 specifically?
Because if so then mega fug.
Otherwise as far as just meta domination then gen 1 mewtwo followed by zacian

I don't really know that Mirador will even make it to anything goes when Zacian Crowned (nerfed or not) and legends plate arceus will exist in about 3ish months. Almost just not worth making AG until home.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:28:32 No.52725114 Report

Quoted By: >>52725126

>>52725069
Anon, you forgot to factor in the +30 SpD
Its also special

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:32:09 No.52725126 Report

Quoted By:

>>52725114
I just made the SpD match the SpA, since they were the same stat in gen 1.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:35:26 No.52725138 Report

Quoted By:

>>52725107
Will Legend Plate Arceus really compare to Mewtwo/Megafug/Zacian/Miraidon?
Changing to the optimal type is extremely good, for sure, but is it on that same level?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:44:20 No.52725166 Report

Quoted By: >>52725197 >>52727987

Just learned what Crowned Sword Zacian is, never played past gen V. This thing is an absolute god what the fuck. I fucking kneel.

This is some anime shit
>720 BST
>170 base attack and 148 base speed
>boosts already insane attack stat on switch in
>it can learn Agility and Swords Dance
>typing further adds insult to injury, it loses its steel weakness, poison weakness, and boy does it resist fucking everything.
>NINE resistances, including fairy and psychic
>two immunities, dragon and poison. This thing cannot be fucking poisoned and is immune to dragon type attacks, what the everloving shit
>solid defensive stats, because outspeeding and resisting everything wasn't enough

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:51:26 No.52725197 Report

Quoted By: >>52725229 >>52725232

>>52725166
I remember thinking the power-creep from Gen V was bad, but this fucker puts all of that and Mega Rayquaza to shame.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 09:57:05 No.52725215 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
Zachian (Highest Speed plus hits phys which is the weakest defensive Stat of each of the pokemon listed) > Gen 1 Mewtoo > Mega Fug > Miraidon

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 10:01:34 No.52725228 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723365
Extremespeed

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 10:01:41 No.52725229 Report

Quoted By:

>>52725197
Mega Rayquaza and Mega Mence can attack this thing 2v1 and still probably lose.

Zacian should be called Zawheh, Zaues, Zajesus.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 10:03:10 No.52725232 Report

Quoted By:

>>52725197
Mega Rayquaza and Mega Mence can attack this thing 2v1 and still probably lose.

Zacian should be called Zahweh, Zaues, Zajesus.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 13:19:11 No.52726120 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
We're just going to keep getting blatant favoritism for one box legend, aren't we?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 13:24:42 No.52726165 Report

Quoted By: >>52726189

>>52724722
Groudon was the way it was because it's way easier to shut down Kyogre since it's coverage is poor compared to Groudons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 13:27:46 No.52726189 Report

Quoted By:

>>52726165
Not a lot resists Water STAB with Electric and Ice coverage, and its STAB was boosted by perma-rain. Groudon could barely make use of its sun for a long time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 15:46:24 No.52727337 Report

Quoted By:

>>52725069
>effectively 854 BST
>27.34% crit rate
>every stat has 252 EV's (no nature boost though)
>immunity to Ghost
>Amnesia acts like 2 calm minds

Also it lacks a Dark weakness and its Psychic attacks deal full damage to Dark and Steel.

Mewtwo should get an ability that works like Lightning Rod for Dark moves

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 16:26:57 No.52727782 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
I miss gen 6 and gen 7 ubers and ag

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 16:29:48 No.52727812 Report

Quoted By:

>>52723198
Bunch of Mewtwo fags in here saying "GEN 1 MEWTWO ONLY...BUT IT CAN ALSO MEGA BECAUSE I SAID SOOOO"

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 16:47:24 No.52727987 Report

Quoted By: >>52728112

>>52725166
Power creep is fine on its own, its not desirable, but its understandable.
The problem is that GF isn't even consistent about it.
Monsters aren't consistently getting stronger over time, there's just one or two exceptions that are utterly busted beyond measure. And the rest that are more standard and within expectations.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 16:57:35 No.52728112 Report

Quoted By: >>52728149

>>52727987
Yeah, for every Flutter Mane we get a Spidops or Cramorant.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 17:00:32 No.52728149 Report

Quoted By: >>52728208 >>52728219

>>52728112
Flutter Mane is way more manageable than the Dolphin or Dracovish

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 17:06:56 No.52728208 Report

Quoted By:

>>52728149
My point is, they make a few bottom of the barrel shitmons for every busted threat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 20 Dec 2022 17:08:15 No.52728219 Report

Quoted By:

>>52728149
Flutter Mane is weak to priority but has ways around it alongside immediate power.

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