/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #54853374

>>54853374
Yeah I wouldn’t trust game freak on that anon lol

>>54853381
I think they pretty much have the same amount actually

>>54853389
So I looked into this
Specifically it’s the offensive move selection that’s random. Pic related is from the leaked DP source code that the community got its hands on in 2020. You can see a whole chunk of the code is commented out (and there are actually comments made by game freak explaining why it’s commented out at the bottom but I wasn’t able to properly translate the text, if any Japanese speaking web knows what it’s saying feel free to translate it)
This piece of code, that would only execute for offensive moves that can hit you, would check if the move isn’t the strongest one and increase the move’s "preference" score by one. It would also increase the move’s score by 2 if it’s super effective, giving the AI a more offensive playstyle if it can be SE on you. Basically, it was the code that would determine which offensive move the AI uses to do maximum damage.
…and it’s commented out, meaning the AI will pick its offensive moves at random when it decides to attack, as long as they can hit you. To oversimplify, it sees every move as a OHKO move, do it’s not actually trying to deal maximum damage, just to hit you, with anything. So the status move logic is untouched and it won’t use moves you’re immune to, but when it decides to use an offensive move it will pick it at random. This is exclusive to DP and was fixed in Platinum.
(1/2)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:06:10 No.54853508 Report

Quoted By: >>54854088

>>54853496
I actually tried to uncomment the code and compile the game to see if it fixes it. Turns out, with the code not commented out, the AI will ONLY use its most effective offensive move, it will never click status moves whatsoever. So that’s why they commented it out, it was bugged.
…but the bug was easy to figure out. As I said before, this code is never executed for status moves. For offensive moves it gives +1 to the strongest one. But then… that gives it priority over the status moves as well, right? Right. So I changed it to instead give -1 to every offensive move that is NOT the strongest. And just like that, it worked. The AI was just like in Platinum. Literally a 2 lines fix and they were too retarded to figure it out so they commented out the whole thing. Game freak moment.

Code commented out (final game) : https://emalm.com/?v=-LvLU

Code uncommented (bugged - not shown here but geodude and onix didn’t set up rocks either and just spammed rock throw) : https://emalm.com/?v=IUh1i

Fixed : https://emalm.com/?v=AZQ2M https://emalm.com/?v=631Ir https://emalm.com/?v=kc4CS https://emalm.com/?v=VBtoy (4 parter because desmume)
I also tested with a Geodude and Cranidos does use pursuit in this case, as it should since Geodude resists headbutt

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 77439399_p0.png, 177KiB, 566x900

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:06:32 No.54853509 Report

Quoted By: >>54853879 >>54855615

>>54853395
Not even true in the slightest as FRLG has a fantastic rematch postgame

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:09:23 No.54853521 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853496
>would check if the move isn’t the strongest one and increase the move’s "preference" score by one
I meant would increase it if the condition, isn’t met, so, if it is in fact the strongest move

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:14:26 No.54853535 Report

Quoted By: >>54853545 >>54853561

>>54853374
she always was
DPPt and BDSP E4 are the two hardest E4s

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:16:46 No.54853545 Report

Quoted By: >>54853581 >>54853583

>>54853535
Challenge B2W2 is harder if you count challenge modes

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:21:25 No.54853561 Report

Quoted By: >>54853590 >>54855664

>>54853535
>Aaron sent out Dustox!

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO BW.jpg, 832KiB, 1125x1357

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:27:06 No.54853581 Report

Quoted By: >>54853657 >>54855585

>>54853545
>Challenge B2W2
kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:28:33 No.54853583 Report

Quoted By: >>54853587

>>54853545
B2W2 challenge mode is ruined by the fact that the opponents are effectively underleveled due to a bug
DP’s semi random move selection makes the AI harder to predict, it is actually known to be harder by the speedrunning community because of that, but speedrunning =/= casual gameplay and the randomness will save you from a KO move a lot of the time.
I would say Platinum is the hardest official game. I mean, Cynthia literally has three OU mons and one Uuber mon on her team. And one of the remaining two has no weaknesses. Clearly they went hard with this one, it’s still easy because it’s pokemon, but it’s clearly in a different league compared to the other champion fights

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:30:18 No.54853587 Report

Quoted By: >>54853598

>>54853583
Still have more Pokemon and all of them have held items

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:31:35 No.54853590 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853561
Dustox in DP is NU
It’s bad, but not as bad as some other E4 members from other games using untiered, PU or PUBL mons
It’s also not in Platinum

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:33:13 No.54853598 Report

Quoted By: >>54853601

>>54853587
They have as many Pokémon as in every other game outside of gens 5 and 6, and the held items they have are mostly trash. Sure, it’s better than holding nothing, but remember, they’re also underleveled.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:34:38 No.54853601 Report

Quoted By: >>54853612

>>54853598
They're higher level, levels matter in Damage formula.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:38:10 No.54853612 Report

Quoted By: >>54853614

>>54853601
Hardly so. A few levels will never make a difference, legitimately the random damage roll is gonna matter more lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:39:04 No.54853614 Report

Quoted By: >>54853637 >>54853639

>>54853612
back that claim up with math

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:46:06 No.54853637 Report

Quoted By: >>54853642 >>54853662

>>54853614
The guy you replied to is right, the range of damage has more variance than the small small damage boost you get from being an increased level.
Iris' level 61 Hydreigon using Focus Blast will do 85-101 damage to a Pokemon with 100 sp.def. At level 58 (normal mode), it would do 82-97.
You'd only notice a difference in damage if you calculated the rolls beforehand, which nobody outside of speedrunners or nuzlockers would do.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO FD0A9F33-EB10-4982-AE28-99752F0B (...).png, 4KiB, 527x101

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:46:20 No.54853639 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853614

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:48:46 No.54853642 Report

Quoted By: >>54853645 >>54853656 >>54855665

>>54853637
So it does make a noticeable difference, got it.
We can now put this retarded "Chalenge Mode is easier" discussion to grave, I would hope.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:49:28 No.54853645 Report

Quoted By: >>54853651

>>54853642
Nobody ever said Challenge Mode was easier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:52:12 No.54853651 Report

Quoted By: >>54853653

>>54853645
This "nobody" says it every single time Challenge Mode is brought up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:53:19 No.54853653 Report

Quoted By: >>54853657

>>54853651
Is this "nobody" in the thread with us right now?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:54:17 No.54853656 Report

Quoted By: >>54853661

>>54853642
I’m concerned by the fact that you thought I was saying challenge mode was easier, and tried to use moves dealing 3 more hp worth of damage as an argument instead of the obvious fact that they have one more pokemon each

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:54:23 No.54853657 Report

Quoted By: >>54853659

>>54853653
At the very least >>54853581 this guy is a "nobody" even if they didn't say it outright.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:55:40 No.54853659 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853657
That was probably yawnfag, the whole posting a picture without actually explaining things is kind of his signature move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:56:36 No.54853661 Report

Quoted By: >>54853676

>>54853656
This is the way the conversation goes every single time.
>BW2 Challenge Mode is brought up
>Someone posts the image
>Counter-arguments are brought up regarding improved movesets, more Pokemon etc. (Is there info on it having a better AI I wonder)
>No it's easier because you get more EXP
repeat ad-infinitum

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:56:39 No.54853662 Report

Quoted By: >>54853675 >>54853676 >>54853685

>>54853637
Level 57 Hydreigon Neutral nature 0 EVs does (104, 106, 106, 108, 110, 110, 112, 114, 114, 116, 116, 118, 120, 120, 122, 124) to level 100 Bibarel
Level 61 Hydreigon Neutral nature 0 EVs does (114, 116, 118, 118, 120, 122, 122, 124, 126, 126, 128, 130, 130, 132, 134, 136) to level 100 Bibarel

Special Attack stat set to 165 for both Hydreigons
10/16 rolls still out damages a perfect roll of the 57

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:57:37 No.54853664 Report

Quoted By: >>54853666

You could make an argument towards Challenge Mode being easier than Normal Mode, given that your Pokemon would gain more experience fighting higher level Pokemon, thus being a higher level by the end of the game.
Also you get more prize money in Challenge Mode.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 10:58:53 No.54853666 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853664
The few extra levels won't make a big enough of a difference.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:01:22 No.54853675 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853662
This is without including the wise glasses boost that challenge mode gets btw

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:01:38 No.54853676 Report

Quoted By: >>54853680

>>54853661
Yes discordfags shitpost against gen 5 (and 4), what else is new.

>>54853662
This includes stat increases which don’t happen in B2W2, only the level itself is higher, the stats stay at the original level.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:02:33 No.54853680 Report

Quoted By: >>54853690

>>54853676
>This includes stat increases which don’t happen in B2W2, only the level itself is higher, the stats stay at the original level.
Can you fucking read?
>Special Attack stat set to 165 for both Hydreigons

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:03:36 No.54853685 Report

Quoted By: >>54853689

>>54853662
>level 100 bibarel
SE moves don't count. Show neutral rolls.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:06:01 No.54853689 Report

Quoted By: >>54853711

>>54853685
(70, 72, 72, 73, 73, 75, 75, 76, 78, 78, 79, 79, 81, 81, 82, 84) challenge mode
(58, 60, 60, 61, 61, 63, 63, 64, 64, 66, 66, 67, 67, 69, 69, 70) regular

Dragon Pulse
165 spl atk

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:06:09 No.54853690 Report

Quoted By: >>54853700

>>54853680
Nevermind I thought you just copypasted data from the calculator.
You’re right, it does make a difference, but it won’t matter at all in normal gameplay and will get lost in the damage roll, while your own pokemon will actually have a higher level, so clearly the attack will deal less damage, but it’s true that the held items somewhat make up for it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:09:31 No.54853700 Report

Quoted By: >>54853713 >>54853717 >>54853737

>>54853690

Those 4 levels alone account for a damage variance of 12-14 per roll.
Assuming you're higher level for your team, bigger gap for every level you're below.
Even with an alleged error in coding, won't believe it without the de-compile showing all exact stats instead of a shitty YT nuzlockers "seismic toss" research, Challenge mode is stronger

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:12:06 No.54853711 Report

Quoted By: >>54853732

>>54853689
Is that with the wise glasses?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:12:29 No.54853713 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853700
There's no realistic way for it to be an error even. It's intentional.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO firefox_2023-11-13_20-12-30.png, 58KiB, 605x716

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:12:57 No.54853716 Report

Quoted By: >>54853728 >>54853737 >>54853744

Btw FaggonHG got told in his Twitter thread

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:12:59 No.54853717 Report

Quoted By: >>54853771

>>54853700
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixv5-2KH_-4

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:15:40 No.54853728 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853716
I knew there was something about IVs in there, thanks for bringing this back up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:17:11 No.54853732 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853711
yes

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:19:28 No.54853737 Report

Quoted By: >>54853746 >>54853752

>>54853700
You’re free to not believe it but it’s very real.
Doesn’t make challenge mode harder than regular mode though, since regular mode had E4 members with only 4 mons and the last gym leaders had only 3, which is just stupid.
If anything it make the easy mode harder than the normal mode, since everything is overleveled

>>54853716
Yes they have better natures and IVs which does matter, but the stats are still calved as underleveled.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:21:08 No.54853744 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853716
Based werster

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:22:23 No.54853746 Report

Quoted By: >>54853748

>>54853737
>more Pokemon don't make it harder than normal mode
?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:24:36 No.54853748 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853746
Shit I fucked up i meant the opposite lole
Overleveling doesn’t make challenge mode easier than regular mode since important trainers have more pokemon which obviously makes them harder

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Screenshot_20231113_202555_X.jpg, 611KiB, 1080x2400

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:27:25 No.54853752 Report

Quoted By: >>54853755 >>54853790

>>54853737
>Doesn’t make challenge mode harder than regular mode though
Oh you're right it's easier when they have more mons on their teams and all have held items and they all have higher level damage formula calcs

Lol

>If anything it make the easy mode harder than the normal mode, since everything is overleveled
See pic

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:28:44 No.54853755 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853752
So Easy Mode is actually slightly easier than Normal Mode, because of the damage calc including the lowered levels.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:34:52 No.54853771 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853717
Both this and the original "test" happen to fall into the same issue.
Hugh's starter probably has same IVs regardless of difficulty, and Iris has straight 30s on all of them.
This test wouldn't necessary get the same results everywhere in the game because of that, the E4 go from 24 to 30 IVs on all but their ace, which always had 30s.
Also, not related to that, I got a laugh from Iris' Hydreigon having Adamant nature with all special moves on Easy/Normal. It gets Lonely on CM instead, which is still not ideal, but at least it's not losing Sp. Atk for that one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:43:24 No.54853790 Report

Quoted By: >>54853797

>>54853752
Huh I didn’t know about the easy mode thing. I wonder why it’s inconsistent between easy mode and challenge mode like that
That may in fact be intentional because what would make easy mode easy otherwise

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:45:24 No.54853797 Report

Quoted By: >>54853822

>>54853790
This was part of why it has to be intentional. They'd have to fuck up on so many different levels to make this accidentally work the way it does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 11:55:06 No.54853822 Report

Quoted By: >>54853839

>>54853797
The easy mode exp thing is probably intentional but the stats calculation clearly isn’t

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:00:16 No.54853839 Report

Quoted By: >>54853892

>>54853822
No reason why it wouldn't be intentional. Again it would require a series of stupid mistakes to make it work like that on accident.
I know GF is incompetent, but that would take too much skill for them to do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:08:25 No.54853860 Report

Quoted By: >>54853912

>>54853374
Isn't this more a choke for Blue than Cynthia?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:13:36 No.54853879 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853509
This.
And it's genuinely difficult since the e4 can't be re-challenged with their old teams if you begin the sevii islands bullshit. By the time you finish the half ass rocket plot and return the ruby/sapphire, your team is maybe 2-3 levels higher than what you just finished previous the e4 with

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:16:52 No.54853892 Report

Quoted By: >>54853915

>>54853839
>No reason why it wouldn't be intentional
So that the game wouldn’t lie to the players by having lying levels?
It’s honestly not that far fetched of a bug and I’m not sure why you think it is. The stats are just calculated before the increased levels are applied.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:24:37 No.54853912 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853860
blue fans arent intolerable about him being the strongest champion

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:26:15 No.54853915 Report

Quoted By: >>54853989

>>54853892
Why would a game for kids make it seem harder than it actually is?
The issue can't be just with that though, the custom trainers (Gym Leaders and E4) are entirely separate, are they not?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:27:07 No.54853920 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853374
the text and graphic on that image contradict eachother, lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 12:54:21 No.54853989 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853915
Apparently their levels are determined dynamically which explains this happening

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 13:27:01 No.54854076 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853374
He probably means things like giving Charmander Metal Claw so its easy to deal with Brock even if you pick charmander

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 13:31:40 No.54854088 Report

Quoted By: >>54854151

>>54853496
>>54853508
Good stuff, thanks. Is early Battle Factory AI (battles 1-14) from Platinum/HGSS the same as DP AI?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 13:50:41 No.54854134 Report

Quoted By:

Yea RS has crappy movepools and pre split gsmeplay.
DS made almost every Pokémon better with better moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 13:57:43 No.54854151 Report

Quoted By:

>>54854088
Not the guy you replied to. From what I've noticed the battle factory AI in rounds 1-2 is completely random, like it'll use one of its four moves at random.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 14:17:04 No.54854199 Report

Quoted By:

bait thread, intended to sow discord

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 14:22:55 No.54854219 Report

Quoted By: >>54854242

>>54853389
Idk why campaignfags think any game is hard when a single online battle requires more thought than all NPC trainers or champions combined

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 14:32:07 No.54854242 Report

Quoted By:

>>54854219
Pokemon online and competitive is garbage

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO Ness Constanza Bat.png, 10KiB, 407x416

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 14:45:37 No.54854289 Report

Quoted By: >>54855768

>>54853374
What gamefreak thinks of as difficulty is much more complex than how players think of it though.
For example, things like DP having less overall pokemon in the dex, and every pokemon being used by at least 1 trainer so you can see every pokemon without necessarily needing to find it in the wild, make it "easier" to complete the dex than in some previous games. Things like having moves be color coded, having the physical special split, having double the TMs, and having more high powered moves overall, make it much "easier" for players to manage their team's movesets. Things like the AI being a bit worse on average, and the average level of non-gym trainers being quite low (such that it's closer to the level of wild mons than in some past games), make it much "easier" to find opportunities to train up weaker team members than in some previous games.
Most people on this board simply do not consider the full breadth of what an actual game designer would consider to be "difficulty", they aren't simply gauging how close a gym leaders team composition is to a smogon set, but rather they're legitimately asking themselves whether the various aspects of the game were designed to feel easier or harder overall. This includes a great number of facets, many of which have more to do with balancing what to communicate the player directly vs what to make them figure out for themselves than with battling itself.

TLDR quotes like this make perfect sense if you actually understand RPG game design and aren't a compfag.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 19:27:48 No.54855585 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853581
Why even have a hard mode where nothing change?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 19:34:05 No.54855614 Report

Quoted By:

Masuda has such a punchable face

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 19:34:08 No.54855615 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853509
Lol Sinnoh's E4 shits on Kanto's. Even the rematches are a joke

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 19:42:54 No.54855664 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853561
>Bruno sent out Onix!

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 19:42:56 No.54855665 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853642
I'm trans btw if that matters

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 20:07:14 No.54855768 Report

Quoted By: >>54855775

>>54854289
NTA, this is also why USUM being the hardest game is a ridiculous statement. wide selection of pokemon, strong TMs for free, affection and roto boosts out the ass
is it harder if you ignore all of that? yes. but how many mechanics can you ignore and still fairly judge a game's difficulty?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 20:09:30 No.54855775 Report

Quoted By: >>54855946

>>54855768
>is it harder if you ignore all of that? yes.
It's also harder if I don't ignore all that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 20:29:28 No.54855833 Report

Quoted By:

>>54853374
Sinnoh trainers all have random AI except for Doubles fights because of a mistake. Cynthia is the single most retarded Champion in the series.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Nov 2023 20:52:37 No.54855946 Report

Quoted By:

>>54855775
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