>>1833029not sure what brands you have in whatever part of the EU you're in, or what their price points are, but Surly and All-City are present in the EU and their bikes are good. Ribble's CGR 725 bikes are well-regarded, too
>>1833031>thinks frames affect aero much>thinks that moar stiff = better than>calls others noobsThe bike frame is the last place you go for (very marginal) aero gains that you only need if you're being paid to race, and stiffness is useless (or even detrimental) past the point where you can feel the frame flex as you mash on the pedals or the handling become sloppy when you push it hard into a corner. If you make a bike too stiff in the rear it becomes very uncomfortable, and if you go too stiff in the front it becomes harder to maneuver. Stiffness has little to do with material, anyway. It comes from tubing diameter, length, and wall thickness. The only impact that material has is how thick you need to make the walls to achieve the desired stiffness, which then impacts weight.
Framebuilders are moving away from aero and outright stiffness, even at the top tier racing bike level, and focusing more on the quality of the ride for the intended application. For endurance road/gravel, aero doesn't matter at all, and if it has disc brakes, the frame is going to be more than stiff enough, just to handle the torque of the brakes.
