/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #45343930

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 18:58:58 No.45343930 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>45344490 >>45344920 >>45345474 >>45348409 >>45349995 >>45351093 >>45353480 >>45359048 >>45368816

Why is Sleep Clause a thing? I thought Smogon was against complex bans? Just ban sleep altogether instead of writing fanfics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 19:12:33 No.45344091 Report

Quoted By: >>45344110

Sleep Clause was invented by Nintendo (it was introduced in Stadium). They're using a preexisting mechanic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 19:14:21 No.45344110 Report

Quoted By: >>45344540 >>45357407

>>45344091
Sleep clause was designed for 3v3 battles in gens where there was essentially no counterplay and battles took much longer, there is a reason it hasn't returned.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 19:46:49 No.45344447 Report

Quoted By: >>45346989 >>45347034 >>45360888 >>45362908 >>45364256 >>45368502

Because there would be nothing to stop a Choice Scarf Spore Breloom

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 19:50:56 No.45344490 Report

Quoted By: >>45344568

>>45343930
Back in the day sleep had fewer counters and lasted longer. Now it has many many counters, even ignoring Dynamax.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 19:57:50 No.45344540 Report

Quoted By: >>45352088 >>45359974

>>45344110
>there is a reason it hasn't returned.
Yes because GameFreak doesn't care about Balance.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:00:25 No.45344568 Report

Quoted By: >>45344643 >>45352877

>>45344490
There is still nothing that's both reliable and easy to naturally place on teams that blanket checks all forms of sleep.
A sleeping pokemon is still worse than a fainted pokemon.
Not much has actually changed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:07:58 No.45344643 Report

Quoted By: >>45344687 >>45361024

>>45344568
>A sleeping pokemon is still worse than a fainted pokemon
Post elo dumbass

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:12:34 No.45344687 Report

Quoted By: >>45348405

>>45344643
You cant set up in front of a fainted pokemon.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:34:56 No.45344911 Report

Quoted By: >>45345015 >>45345332 >>45345820

>writing fanfics
https://archive.is/zTI9T
Bulbapedo page of official tournaments, of which Sleep Clause was a rule when Single Battles were the tournament format.

If not wanting to look or are a lazy faggot here is a list official tournaments that had Sleep Clause:
Singles
>nintendo cup '97
>nintendo cup '98
>nintendo cup '99
>tournament during the 2000 stadium tour
>2000 world championship
>tournament in france by french fansites, but sponsored by nintendo and bandai in 2005
>emerald ultimate frontier brain tournament in 2005

Doubles
>tournament during pokemon festa 2004
>tournament during pokemon festa 2005
>tournament during journey across america 2006

It was also a clause in Battle Revolution, an official Pokemon product that had several other clauses that could be applied to multiplayer battles.
>pedo page of battle revolution options https://archive.vn/LCcpG

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:36:50 No.45344920 Report

Quoted By:

>>45343930
Even older Pokemon tournaments had Sleep Cause.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:44:28 No.45344977 Report

Quoted By:

>NOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST BAN THINGS NOOO I WANT TO PLAY WITHOUT ANY RULE WHAT SO EVER REEEEEEE

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:48:57 No.45345015 Report

Quoted By: >>45345056 >>45345065

>>45344911
Alright, how do I activate Sleep Clause in 3DS games?
Exactly. They're modding the game to implement complex bans they're apparently against.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:52:15 No.45345042 Report

Quoted By: >>45347034

sleep is op as fuck, if your pokemon is slower than smeargle or breloom you just auto lose

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:54:07 No.45345056 Report

Quoted By: >>45345107 >>45345123

>>45345015
>they're modding

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 20:55:46 No.45345065 Report

Quoted By: >>45345100 >>45345107 >>45345123

>>45345015
Sleep Clause on cartridge just means you are disqualified if you try and sleep two mons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:00:28 No.45345100 Report

Quoted By: >>45345504

>>45345065
What about stuff like effect spore?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:01:54 No.45345107 Report

Quoted By: >>45345402 >>45345470

>>45345056
>>45345065
>Breloom uses Spore
>next turn
>opponent switches out, Breloom uses Spore, Sleep Clause Mod activates instead of auto-loss for Breloom user
How do you replicate this on cart?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:03:36 No.45345123 Report

Quoted By: >>45345402

>>45345056
I hate sleep shit but this guy is absolutely right.
The current implementation of sleep clause just pretends the sleep move wasn't used and continues the battle, which isn't accurate to cardridge play
Showdown should use >>45345065 and instantly disqualify the sleep move user

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:28:51 No.45345332 Report

Quoted By: >>45345402

>>45344911
So as has already been stated it was a rule made for a different era of Pokemon (15+ years ago) in which there were no real defenses against sleep and it lasted longer.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:38:35 No.45345402 Report

Quoted By: >>45345425 >>45345588 >>45368684

>>45345107
You and the opponent both agree on a set of rules and follow them. The Breloom player remembers they put something to sleep and doesn't click Spore (or another sleeping move) again until the opponent's pokemon wakes up. It's not that hard to figure out. Is it also "modding the game" when two players agree not to dynamax or agree to pokemon restrictions? Both of which have also been applied to official tournaments in the current games.

>>45345123
Instantly disqualifying the user would be like just ending the battle on cartridge or quitting a battle on Showdown. They should disable sleep moves temporarily in battle on the simulator when something has already been put to sleep. This would prevent misclicks from that one person in the world who does it once a year but more importantly reflect a user's ladder score as if earned it from people who are not retarded. Actually a valid point that the forums should discuss since on cartridge you can't Spore without sleeping just because the previous thing was switched out.

>>45345332
>defenses against sleep
Is Sleep now a manageable problem in Singles to consider modifying or removing Sleep Clause?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:39:16 No.45345410 Report

Quoted By: >>45345504 >>45345533 >>45353593 >>45354148

>Lum Berry
>Chesto Berry
>Insomnia mons
>Vital Spirit mons
>Early Bird mons
>sleep talk
>snore
>Guts users status absorbing
>Poison Heal status absorbing

Wow, look at all these options for counterplay! I wonder how the community that claims to be the most competitive uses these tools to counter sleep?

>REEEEEEE BAN IT!!!!!!!!

Oh. I guess I expected too much out of Smoggies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:41:02 No.45345425 Report

Quoted By: >>45345470 >>45345573

>>45345402
>You and the opponent both agree on a set of rules and follow them.
Nice sidestep. Now answer my actual question.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:45:51 No.45345470 Report

Quoted By: >>45345757

>>45345107
>>45345425
Double sleep user forfeits or turns off the console

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:45:55 No.45345474 Report

Quoted By: >>45345513

>>45343930
This has been tediously explained many times on Smogon's website. You just want to be spoonfed because you're a bored shitposter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:48:31 No.45345504 Report

Quoted By: >>45345525 >>45345541 >>45345580

>>45345100
Since you aren't the one initiating it, it counts like self-inflicted sleep (Rest)
If there was a burn clause, Flame Body would still be valid.
>>45345410
I know it's bait, but
>wake-up-earlier abilities when mons with said abilities get better ones
>actually suggesting Snore
>Guts Sleep on something else than Throh
Not all options are good options. Rather wouldn't have Throh in OU by usage due to no sleep clause. Toxic/Flame Orb takes a turn to activate. Also Poison Heal in S/S lol
As for Insomnia, only shitmons get it and the only one that isn't is Mega Mewtwo Y, which in S/S lol
Now why do I bother argue with a falseflagger that wants anti-Smogon people to look much dumber than they might be, I don't know

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:49:11 No.45345513 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345474
>I DON'T HAVE TO EDUCATE YOU!

Very convincing, smoggie! If it's so easy to explain surely you could do it? You know, thinking independently, rather than just sending us your cult literature?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:50:21 No.45345525 Report

Quoted By: >>45345580

>>45345504
Forgot Vital Spirit is an Insomnia reskin, not an Early Bird reskin. Same shit still applies, entirely shitmons with better abilities anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:50:42 No.45345533 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345410
>snore
Stopped reading there. Braindead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:51:47 No.45345541 Report

Quoted By: >>45345567 >>45345626

>>45345504
>the tools aren't perfect in every situation!
>i have to THINK to counter that!? BANITBANITBANITBANIT

I like how you also completely ignored two of the options! Very convincing, smoggie.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:53:20 No.45345567 Report

Quoted By: >>45345625

>>45345541
post elo

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:53:37 No.45345573 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345425
If you want a simple answer: You cannot be stopped from spamming sleep on cartridge. There is no Sleep Clause in the current generation to prevent putting multiple pokemon to sleep on the official in-game online ladders.

Now answer this question: Are modifications to the game's code needed for two players to agree to follow a set of rules when playing multiplayer outside of the in-game ladders?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:54:14 No.45345580 Report

Quoted By: >>45345626

>>45345504
>>45345525
Because you're probably just as bored and depressed as they are, anon. Do your part to make /vp/ a little better and ignore shitposters. Your life will significantly improve if you spend less time getting into pointless arguments with people starved for attention.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:54:44 No.45345587 Report

Quoted By: >>45345645 >>45360005

>WAAAAAH!!! I CAN'T SPAM SPORE AND INSTANTLY WIN!

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:54:59 No.45345588 Report

Quoted By: >>45345974

>>45345402
>The Breloom player remembers they put something to sleep and doesn't click Spore (or another sleeping move) again until the opponent's pokemon wakes up.
That's not what he's saying, say that the breloom player is expecting a wake up next turn and the opponent is faster, so he clicks spore. When the turn starts, the oppenent ends up switching. How do you prevent two mons from being asleep in the same team without gimping the breloom player in this scenario?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:58:03 No.45345625 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345567
>Smoggies think their fanfic meta is hard

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:58:05 No.45345626 Report

Quoted By: >>45345675 >>45345724

>>45345541
You're doing a very bad job convincing anyone you're not very pro-Smogon trying to own anti-Smogon by making their ideas seem absolutely retarded.
>>45345580
Maybe it'll do good anyway, if the genuine anti-Smogon peeps who are delusional enough to look like the shitposter above keep up putting people off and driving them away from such arguments.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 21:59:57 No.45345645 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345587
I'm not the one who spent the last 24 years making a fanfic meta just so I wouldn't have to adapt, smoggie.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:00:39 No.45345654 Report

Quoted By:

I understand why Sleep Clause exists but honestly I'd rather just have sleep banned.
I'm tired of faggots leading Amoongus instantly deleting one pokemon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:02:05 No.45345675 Report

Quoted By: >>45345714

>>45345626
You're so deeply indoctrinated in your cult, you unironically think that anyone who doesn't think the way you do is just PRETENDING to be different

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:05:17 No.45345714 Report

Quoted By: >>45345733

>>45345675
Yeah, you're pretending to be retarded.
Outside of that;
>my camp is better than your camp
Why are people regressing to tribalism over video games again

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:06:10 No.45345724 Report

Quoted By: >>45345743

>>45345626
I think most people just roll their eyes and ignore these discussions

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:07:19 No.45345733 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345714

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:08:28 No.45345743 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345724
Yeah, probably

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:10:10 No.45345757 Report

Quoted By: >>45345813 >>45347301

>>45345470
That's not what happens on Smogon, the move gets ignored and the battle goes on.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:14:26 No.45345794 Report

Quoted By: >>45345812 >>45345864 >>45353650

Why can't people stop responding to Yawnfag? Is the fact that he mentions fucking Snore not enough?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:16:20 No.45345812 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345794

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:16:23 No.45345813 Report

Quoted By: >>45345903

>>45345757
He was explaining how sleep clause would play out on carts
But Smogon almost never does their metas on carts anymore, just their sim. Smogonfags who still play cart just do the cart metas instead
Which is why the constant Smogon vs VGC shitflinging a few bored shitposters like to force is really funny, Smogon and the western side of VGC have a huge overlap

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:17:06 No.45345820 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344911
Dont forget the GameCube games where it's an option too.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:21:12 No.45345864 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345794
Some people are just easily baited kek
But the number of people responding to him has definitely declined. Very considerate of the people here to not enable Yawnfag's mental illness, if you ask me

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:26:24 No.45345903 Report

Quoted By: >>45346003

>>45345813
>He was explaining how sleep clause would play out on carts
But that doesn't answer the question of replicating the mod on cart. It's just a loose implementation.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:35:12 No.45345974 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345588
This is a legitimate problem and I don't have an answer. Maybe someone else does. On cartridge the sleep user can spam the sleep move until it wakes up, but that would allow residual damage / healing to happen if active and a free move for the switch in when it wakes up. I can only assume people casually playing on cartridge with both a ruleset meant for a simulator and a timer are fine with not being allowed to predict a faster wake up and then resleeping as a trade off for not being able to spam sleep.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 05 Nov 2020 22:38:47 No.45346003 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345903
The fact it's a mod is controversial on smogon too, but the reason for it is that it's just annoying to lose a match by technicality,
There's some situations where it just comes down to RNG, like using sleep talk on a pokemon that has a sleep move, where you'd just have to hope it doesn't pull out the sleep move or you'd autolose.
This isn't so common anymore, but on more sleep heavy metas like gen 5 it was absolutely a thing, which is partly why sleep is now banned outright in the Gen 5 metas.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/azure-gen5ou-369573

tl;dr it's inaccurate but it's less annoying
same reason you can cancel moves

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 00:50:15 No.45346989 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344447
Then just ban sleep altogether.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 00:57:32 No.45347034 Report

Quoted By: >>45347150

>>45344447
>>45345042
That's not the point.
If sleep is broken, ban it. If it's not broken, don't ban it.
Sleep clause is a half-assed method that can't be replicated on cart and is unnecessary when a simpler method would be better.
I usually agree with Smogon's decisions, but sleep clause is just stupid.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 01:07:20 No.45347110 Report

Quoted By: >>45347307 >>45347467

if 7 then you are gay

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 01:12:57 No.45347150 Report

Quoted By: >>45348402

>>45347034
>that can't be replicated on cart
But Smogon's rules and metagame apply to Pokemon Showdown, not the cart

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 01:32:33 No.45347301 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345757
>put second mon to sleep
>The Opponent Has Disconnected
nice battle lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 01:34:21 No.45347307 Report

Quoted By: >>45347467

>>45347110
If your post ends in 0 then you are gay

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 01:51:32 No.45347420 Report

Quoted By: >>45349426

I don't think sleep clause is the issue, I think the way it is implemented is.

For instance, when your opponent has a mon sleeping, you shouldn't be able to click spore/sleep powder, not just make you miss your move because it doesn't make sense

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 01:58:26 No.45347467 Report

Quoted By:

>>45347110
>>45347307
Oh god who won.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 04:26:02 No.45348402 Report

Quoted By: >>45348414

>>45347150
Smogon rules are meant to be replicable on cart in organized vs matches.
It operates on the honor system outside of showdown, but it is mostly doable other than sleep clause.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 04:26:28 No.45348405 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344687
You can’t sacrifice a fainted Pokemon either

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 04:26:55 No.45348409 Report

Quoted By:

>>45343930
The worst one is the Baton Pass complex ban in Gen 5. Holy shit that one is stupid

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 04:28:16 No.45348414 Report

Quoted By: >>45349431

>>45348402
Sleep Clause is also honor system-based. The only thing that can't be replicable is failing to put them to sleep if you do break the honor code. It's the same with all the other bans. Obviously there is no mechanism on cart that stops you from putting a banned move or ability on your mon

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 07:27:00 No.45349426 Report

Quoted By:

>>45347420
>For instance, when your opponent has a mon sleeping, you shouldn't be able to click spore/sleep powder, not just make you miss your move because it doesn't make sense
But then there's situations where you predict the opponent will wake up, click the sleep move to be safe, and the opponent switches out instead.
Using spore against an already sleeping mon doesn't violate sleep clause, but using it against the one that just switched in does.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 07:28:17 No.45349431 Report

Quoted By: >>45352026

>>45348414
The problem is that sleep clause can be broken accidentally.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 09:23:11 No.45349995 Report

Quoted By:

>>45343930
I actually agree.
I know sleep clause was from Stadium, but that doesn't mean anything for other games.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 13:11:38 No.45351093 Report

Quoted By: >>45351346

>>45343930
>instead of writing fanfics.
But that's literally the point. Create a more competitive, less rng heavy environment.
Putting one pokemon to sleep was deemed fair enough for sleep not to be scraped entirely as the rng factor is limited as opposed to messing with evasion too much

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 13:54:30 No.45351346 Report

Quoted By: >>45351369 >>45351415 >>45351427

>>45351093
Sleep isn't any more RNG than Will O Wisp, Play Rough, etc Smogonites just feel entitled to a slow paced game in which they can run a full team of sub Butterfree speed walls and not suffer for it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 13:59:15 No.45351369 Report

Quoted By: >>45351375

>>45351346
>Smogonites just feel entitled to a slow paced game in which they can run a full team of sub Butterfree speed walls and not suffer for it.
well they did make showdown, so yeah they're entitled to make whatever ruleset they want

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 14:00:32 No.45351375 Report

Quoted By: >>45351381 >>45351415

>>45351369
Sure just stop pretending it's based on anything but preference for how they think the game "should" be, the "b-b-but it was in Stadium" crap is retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 14:02:11 No.45351381 Report

Quoted By:

>>45351375
ok

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 14:07:46 No.45351415 Report

Quoted By: >>45351427

>>45351375
>stop pretending it's based on anything but preference for how they think the game "should" be
No one pretends that it isn't, it's even literally the whole point of it. Otherwise they could just play on cart and inject mons if needed.

>>45351346
>Sleep isn't any more RNG than Will O Wisp, Play Rough, etc
The randomness has a much greater impact though. Most of the time rng can cost you a turn, with sleep it's about several turns

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 14:11:56 No.45351427 Report

Quoted By:

>>45351346
>>45351415
No one seriously thinks that sleep is on par with Play Rough. You're wasting your time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:32:40 No.45352026 Report

Quoted By: >>45352074

>>45349431
It can't, if the opponent puts himself to sleep with rest or makes contact with a pokemon with a sleep inducing ability you didn't break any rule.
Sleep clause only counts if you're willingly using sleep moves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:35:57 No.45352053 Report

Quoted By: >>45360691

Why isnt item claus a thing?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:39:06 No.45352074 Report

Quoted By: >>45352094 >>45352109 >>45352910

>>45352026
>i think opponent will wake up this turn
>click sleep move again
>he actually switches
>pokemon B falls asleep too
Or what about random moves like assist or metronome?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:41:10 No.45352088 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344540
If they didnt they wouldnt have added in HDB, nerfed Intimidate, nerfed terrains, or kept the terrain ioa moves away from the tapus. They try, they are getting better over the ages, but they just arent that good at balance. It seems like doubles and the VGc meta get more attention, seeing how that is their promoted meta and all I can see why.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:42:01 No.45352094 Report

Quoted By: >>45352113

>>45352074
>click sleep move again
You broke the sleep clause by using a sleep move while the opponent is asleep.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:43:05 No.45352109 Report

Quoted By:

>>45352074
>Or what about random moves like assist or metronome?
Those are also potential sleep moves that get restricted by sleep clause.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:43:38 No.45352113 Report

Quoted By: >>45352140 >>45352146

>>45352094
So the clause doesnt allow me to reupp my sleep the turn an opponent would wake up? Kinda sus

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:46:10 No.45352140 Report

Quoted By: >>45352243

>>45352113
Why would you assume they would wake up on x-turn anyway?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:46:52 No.45352146 Report

Quoted By: >>45352844

>>45352113
Nope. See it as a matter of responsibility.
When one of your pokemon is asleep, no matter what caused it, I am responsible for not using sleep moves until all your pokemon are awake. If I know that you have a sleeping team member then I will get expelled for using a sleep move, whether the sleep is about to pass or not.
If you use rest or tackle my Effect Spore Paras then you are responsible for putting your pokemon to sleep, so I didn't break any rules.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 15:59:16 No.45352243 Report

Quoted By:

>>45352140
There exist a maximum number of turns a pokemin can be asleep, 3. If they stayed asleep for those 3 turns you know they will wake up the next.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 16:11:12 No.45352384 Report

Quoted By: >>45352539 >>45357787

Didn't gen 5 just ban sleep moves?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 16:28:42 No.45352539 Report

Quoted By: >>45357787

>>45352384
Probably not considering that's the gen that also introduced an RNG sleep chance move to PVP in Relic Song.

Before that, Secret Power could randomly cause sleep but not in PVP.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 17:07:11 No.45352844 Report

Quoted By:

>>45352146
Honestly if the game doesnt have a mechanic that handles it automatically it sounds like way more trouble than its worth.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 17:09:38 No.45352877 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344568
Magic Bounce and Misty Surge both block sleep on switch in.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 17:14:02 No.45352910 Report

Quoted By: >>45353459

>>45352074
The Sleep Clause isn't "Only one Pokemon can be put to sleep at one time," it's "Only one Pokemon can be put to sleep at a time, and you may not use sleep moves while an opponent is asleep by one of your sleep moves."

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 18:17:29 No.45353459 Report

Quoted By: >>45358858

>>45352910
>You also have to give your opponent a free turn every time they wake up

Lol just ban sleep

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 18:19:28 No.45353480 Report

Quoted By:

>>45343930
there's a reason why vivillion has a niche in AG

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 18:33:01 No.45353593 Report

Quoted By: >>45353608

>>45345410
>Lum Berry
fair
>Chesto Berry
shit item, would work on a dedicated counter
>Insomnia, Vital Spirit mons
Hypno, Noctowl, Ariados, Delibird, Banette, Honchkrow, and Gourgeist. Only Honchkrow is actually usable.
>Early Bird mons
Dodrio, Kangaskhan, Ledian, Xatu, Sunflora, Girafarig, Houndoom, Shiftry. All shitmons.
>Sleep Talk
Shit move, also a dedicated counter.
>Snore
lol
>Mons that put statuses on themselves
This one works, but how many of those are there? How many are any good? Gliscor and Conkeldurr?
The sum total of reliable counters you mentioned include Lum Berry, Insomnia Honchkrow (not Moxie or Super Luck), Gliscor with Protect, and Conkeldurr with Protect/Detect.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 18:34:49 No.45353608 Report

Quoted By:

>>45353593
Oh, I forgot to mention the Vital Spirit mons: Primeape, Galar Mr. Mime, Delibird again, Electivire, Magmortar, and Lycanroc midnight (without No Guard). Real winners there

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 18:39:31 No.45353650 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345794
I still can't tell who is and isn't Yawnfag. I can't keep up with all the mentally ill shitposters who squat on this board for a few months at a time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 19:42:36 No.45354148 Report

Quoted By: >>45354642 >>45354703

>>45345410
You forgot shed skin, aromatherapy/heal bell support, grass type Pokemon being outright immune to the common sleep moves, natural healer, and some other things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 20:34:10 No.45354642 Report

Quoted By:

>>45354148
>shed skin
lmao
>aromatherapy/heal bell support
irrelevant unless there is sleep clause to begin with because the cleric can just be put to sleep
>grass type Pokemon being outright immune to the common sleep moves
and the most common spore user hard counters grass types, nice job switching your Rillaboom into Amoongus to stop the spore and then getting walled and sludgebombed in the face
>natural healer
lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 20:39:54 No.45354703 Report

Quoted By:

>>45354148
this isn't PU bro

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 06 Nov 2020 23:48:05 No.45356388 Report

Quoted By:

Bump

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 01:54:53 No.45357407 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344110
spbp
imagine playing smogon's madeup rules on a shitty sim like showdown
god you guys are pathetic, hanging on to the words of a council of neckbeards like they define the universe of comp battles

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 02:46:28 No.45357787 Report

Quoted By:

>>45352384
>>45352539
Yes it did, Gen 5 sleep mechanics are stupid

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 05:27:35 No.45358858 Report

Quoted By:

>>45353459
This.
why does it have to be made complicated?
If sleep is broken, ban it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 05:58:47 No.45359048 Report

Quoted By:

>>45343930
Actually they were discussing this problem in Policy Review at the start of this gen, but didn't come to any conclusion
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3656311/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 06:09:01 No.45359112 Report

Quoted By: >>45359159 >>45359856

>Play on cart
>Sleep spam is a niche strat used basically only by Venasaur and Milotic either in sun or to counter less threatening Pokemon that can't break a coil defense
>Go on Smogon
>It's banned because Toxapex is slower than both of these Pokemon at base speed

lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 06:16:00 No.45359159 Report

Quoted By: >>45359751 >>45362422

>>45359112
>Play on cart
>there's no feasible way of playing 6v6 singles to even make a comparison to smogon
>retards still try and shitpost about a singles strategy not working when you can't even play real singles

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO nhiw.png, 77KiB, 500x500

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 09:03:32 No.45359751 Report

Quoted By: >>45359775

>>45359159
>Real singles
>Exclusively possible in a simulator, has a ladder existing exclusively in a simulator

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 09:11:54 No.45359775 Report

Quoted By:

>>45359751
try playing a pokemon game sometime

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 09:30:36 No.45359856 Report

Quoted By: >>45359941

>>45359112
It's banned because it's so RNG-reliant. Same with evasion and OHKO moves. It's not unbeatable, but uncompetitive to have dumb luck decide the outcome.
There are counters, but it's such an unreliable strat that nearly nobody uses it and therefore nobody wastes space on said counters just on the off-chance that they encounter a rare cheese strat.
Even with Spore, the only sleep move with perfect accuracy, it's still a matter of RNG when your mon wakes up.
Until then, it might as well be fainted, except it can be set up on and doesn't give you a free switch.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 09:57:41 No.45359941 Report

Quoted By: >>45366129

>>45359856
wrong
the RNG wake up turns is just the cherry on top of the shit cake
sleep is simply a ridiculous status condition both for what it does and how you have to deal with it
counterplay exists in theory but it's the typical problem of being stupidly niche or not actually being good counterplay like le epic grass types are immune to teh spores haha XD but then your grass type can't actually beat Amoongus/Tangrowth/Venusaur
evasion is similar in that the actual RNG element of it is just another layer in the shit cake that makes it gay
in the majority of situations you should be operating under the assumption that you will not hit unless you have no other choice but to gamble
and then it runs into the same issue of being stupidly difficult to actually have counterplay for it like trying to use le epik swift but then it only does 12% to this chansey spamming minimize

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 10:04:01 No.45359974 Report

Quoted By: >>45360606

>>45344540
Good fuck balance. what realistically would be preventing my butterfree from using sleep powder, on more than one mon

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 10:10:34 No.45360005 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345587
Id say ban sleep all together fuck rng status bull shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 12:47:08 No.45360606 Report

Quoted By:

>>45359974
The game has to be fun for both players, anon

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 13:04:54 No.45360691 Report

Quoted By:

>>45352053
Because its pointless

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 13:44:00 No.45360888 Report

Quoted By: >>45362908

>>45344447
>insomnia
>sleep talk

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 14:12:18 No.45361024 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344643
There is a reason why Suicide Leads run shit like Explosion and Fina Gambit, even if they do little damage. Staying in front of your opponent while doing nothing is free set up for them

A sleeping mon is worse than a fainted mon

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 17:58:00 No.45362422 Report

Quoted By:

>>45359159
>what are link battles

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 18:51:40 No.45362908 Report

Quoted By: >>45362939

>>45344447
>>45360888
>grass types
>safety goggles
>lum berry

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 18:56:05 No.45362939 Report

Quoted By: >>45363211

>>45362908
FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU MY TEAM IS 5 LEFTIES AND A BLACK SLUDGE I WONT CHANGE IT I WON’T

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 19:37:23 No.45363211 Report

Quoted By:

>>45362939
Getting rid of the duplicate item clause was a mistake.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1597960840026m.jpg, 62KiB, 1024x606

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 21:55:33 No.45364256 Report

Quoted By: >>45364445 >>45368265

>>45344447
>Lum Berry
>Chesto Berry
>Insomnia mons
>Vital Spirit mons
>Early Bird mons
>sleep talk
>snore
>Guts users status absorbing
>Poison Heal status absorbing

Wow, look at all these options for counterplay! I wonder how the community that claims to be the most competitive uses these tools to counter sleep?

>REEEEEEE BAN IT!!!!!!!!

Oh. I guess I expected too much out of Smoggies...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 22:18:41 No.45364445 Report

Quoted By: >>45364725 >>45368258 >>45368955

>>45364256
>1 use item that can be screwed over by other status and Knock Off
>1 use item that can be Knocked Off
>Literally only 3 FE Pokemon. Noctowl, Gourgeist, and Delibird
>Literally only 4 FE Pokemon. Magmotar, Electivire, Delibird, and Lycanroc-Midnight
>Also only on 3 FE mons, 1 of which already has an anti-spore ability in Magic Bounce
>Requiring a non-attacking move that’s sole purpose relies on your opponent’s actions
>Fucking 50 BP move that doesn’t work when you’re away and can’t hit ghost types
>Still having only a limited option of Pokemon, but it’s better than the rest
>Literally no longer exists in the game

You know, instead of just saying you should use Grass types, you instead list a bunch of unviable or extremely limited options for dealing with Spore. This just makes it look a lot more like you have no idea what you’re saying.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 07 Nov 2020 22:53:02 No.45364725 Report

Quoted By: >>45367613

>>45364445
If they knock off into sleep that sounds like a cool combo that the player deserves to have the upper hand for pulling off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 02:13:51 No.45366129 Report

Quoted By: >>45367140 >>45367179

>>45359941
If it's that busted, why not ban it altogether?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 05:20:15 No.45367140 Report

Quoted By: >>45368187

>>45366129
Because they want to pretend they are based on real Pokemon still.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 05:29:07 No.45367179 Report

Quoted By: >>45367369

>>45366129
Smogon's Sleep clause dates all the way back from the days of gen 2. They didn't wanna ban sleep entirely because too many mons relied on it to be viable so sleep clause was borrowed from Stadium as a compromise solution that's pretty much been grandfathered in. Like evasion sleep has been nerfed to the point of not being a problem anymore but no one really cares to bang pots and pans over it either.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 05:48:58 No.45367294 Report

Quoted By: >>45367388 >>45368199

Because rather than playing something else like an adult Smogon would rather pervert the game they've chosen to suit them like a manchild

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 05:53:18 No.45367317 Report

Quoted By:

I think it's neat that players have made up their own ruleset to play by. Sleep clause is pretty neat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 06:05:58 No.45367369 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367179
>Like evasion sleep has been nerfed to the point of not being a problem anymore
lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 06:09:59 No.45367388 Report

Quoted By: >>45367414

>>45367294
what other turn based online multiplayer RPGs even exist

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 06:15:23 No.45367414 Report

Quoted By: >>45367461

>>45367388
the closest to pokemon would probably be tcgs
which have even more regulation and fan rulings than smogon kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 06:29:24 No.45367461 Report

Quoted By: >>45367476

>>45367414
Never really heard of TCG with fan rules, usually card bans come directly from the company.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 06:36:53 No.45367476 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367461
Commander and Pauper's beginnings as entire formats in Magic the Gathering, Goat and Trinity as formats in Yugioh, any match in Pokemon involving a card not in standard rotation before 2014.

I dunno what card games you've heard of if you haven't heard of those three.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 07:07:17 No.45367613 Report

Quoted By:

>>45364725
>It’s a combo of moves beyond just spamming attack, so its smart.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1604588693685.gif, 734KiB, 500x350

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 08:05:42 No.45367880 Report

Quoted By:

No one on this site knows how to play this fucking game. Which is fine. Neither does Gamefreak.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1558302323838.png, 404KiB, 550x524

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 08:07:04 No.45367884 Report

Quoted By: >>45367915 >>45372057 >>45373432

>Peoplearguing that sleep clause is bad
Is this what happens when you spend too much time on /vp/?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 08:15:57 No.45367915 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367884
just ban sleep desu

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 09:24:50 No.45368187 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367140
Banning it would be more grounded in actual Pokemon.
It's actually possible for 2 players to agree not to use sleep on cart, while having a sleep move magically fail isn't possible.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 09:25:50 No.45368199 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367294
Is there a competitive RPG with the same level of customization as Pokemon?
If one exists I'd switch to it, but I don't know of it.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1603602610834.png, 20KiB, 640x591

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 09:40:24 No.45368258 Report

Quoted By: >>45369009 >>45369120

>>45364445
>t-the counter play HAS COUNTERPLAY!?
>i only have 10 (ten) differerent options to choose from!?

BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT I DONT LIKE THINKING

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 09:43:23 No.45368265 Report

Quoted By: >>45368301

>>45364256
>bro just bring shit that makes your team worse against everything else to specifically counter a rare gimmick strat bro

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1565751972821.jpg, 48KiB, 500x500

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 09:53:08 No.45368301 Report

Quoted By: >>45368342 >>45368364

>>45368265
>people discover rare gimmick
>proffesional, high-elo players discover how to use it to it's full potential
>scrubs get butthurt about it
>proffesional, high-elo players look into the game and discover the intended measures to counter the now-overpopular and overused strategy
>strategy becomes a part of the growing metagame

This is how an ACTUALLY COMPETITIVE game lives, smoggie!

But on Smogon..

>people discover rare gimmick
>smoggie cult leaders lose once to it
>immediately cry for it to get banned because it ruins their clefpex stall teams and they don't want to think

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 10:04:21 No.45368342 Report

Quoted By: >>45368356

>>45368301
>>people discover rare gimmick
>>proffesional, high-elo players discover how to use it to it's full potential
2 meme arrows in and you're already wrong.
Sleep is extremely unreliable and is barely used even when legal outside of gimmick teams. See the usage stats for NDAG, where sleep is rare despite being legal.
As such, most people don't prepare for it, and it becomes an RNG-riddled pain in the ass to deal with. Not impossible, but annoying.
Anyone who's not a Verlisify-tier cheese-loving scrub is happy to see sleep gone.
Although I suppose you of all people would love sleep, considering that you're yawnfag.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 0ae.png, 38KiB, 600x800

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 10:07:59 No.45368356 Report

Quoted By: >>45368371

>>45368342
>it's unviable! it's bad! it's unreliable!
>so therefore, we NEED to ban it! that'll keep things balanced!

You're so indoctrinated you don't see the doublethink, smoggie.

Why don't you post your ELO?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 10:09:57 No.45368364 Report

Quoted By:

>>45368301
yea im sure you play many competitive games which is why youve spent the last several days shitposting about smogon on a tiny irrelevant image board. no one believes the stuff you say, not even you. why waste yours and people's time like this? are your dopamine receptors so fried you have to resort to this? sad if so

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 10:11:28 No.45368371 Report

Quoted By: >>45368394

>>45368356
Need and want are different things.
Sleep doesn't NEED to be banned.
The game is simply better when sleep is banned.

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 1535101915720.png, 343KiB, 813x850

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 10:20:07 No.45368394 Report

Quoted By:

>>45368371
>smoggie admitting the game should be changed because it hurts his fee fees

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 10:59:23 No.45368502 Report

Quoted By:

>>45344447
>choice scarf spore
So it'd just click spore all game?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 11:49:35 No.45368684 Report

Quoted By:

>>45345402
>They should disable sleep moves temporarily in battle on the simulator when something has already been put to sleep. This would prevent misclicks from that one person in the world who does it once a year

What if I want to spam spore on your already sleeping mon so you don't set up and sweep my team once you wake up.
Disqualifying is a bad solution too, since in that case you could switch to a non statused mon just to make the spore user insta lose.
Sleep clause is dumb as hell, but is the less dumb option

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 12:33:21 No.45368816 Report

Quoted By:

>>45343930
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3648649/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3656311/#post-8285174
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lets-rework-bw-sleep-clause-sleep-moves-now-banned-sleep-clause-lifted-post-40.3657777/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 13:10:32 No.45368915 Report

Quoted By: >>45370368

Reminder to not argue with yawnfag. No, his shitty wojakpost with a made up greentext quote is not worthy of a reply.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 13:13:19 No.45368921 Report

Quoted By: >>45368937

Dont get why people hate smogon. Just because it is not nintendo's rules? Lmao, i hope yall don't play smash.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 13:17:07 No.45368937 Report

Quoted By:

>>45368921
It's just /vp/. They need something to sperg about until the next games get revealed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 13:21:01 No.45368955 Report

Quoted By:

>>45364445
Came here to say something like this. All those solutions are total ass. Losing your hold item just to counter sleep lol?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 13:36:58 No.45369009 Report

Quoted By: >>45369409

>>45368258
This what the fuck. It's like listening to the "but what if your Dracovish counter dies" shit again, they outplayed you faggot gg.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 14:04:58 No.45369120 Report

Quoted By:

>>45368258
Anon, they're shitmon. Why weaken your team by replacing a potentially valuable Pokemon with Noctowl or Delibird solely because there's a possibility the other team will have a sleep move? If they don't have a sleep move you're at a net loss.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 14:57:18 No.45369395 Report

Quoted By:

Smogon be like:
>NOOO YOU CAN'T JUST USE GOOD POKÉMON THAT CAN TAKE OUT TWO OF YOUR OPPONENTS POKÉMON YOU HAVE TO KEEP TRADING ONE FOR ONE

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 14:59:55 No.45369409 Report

Quoted By:

>>45369009
Why would Smogon play strategically and save their Dracovish counter for Dracovish when they can try to sweep the whole team with it and be surprised when it dies before Vish comes out and then cry about how broken Dracovish is?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 15:03:14 No.45369428 Report

Quoted By: >>45370198

Yawnfag doesn't even know what a counter is or how few Pokemon can even deal with Dracovish in the first place. This retard is embarrassing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 17:14:16 No.45370198 Report

Quoted By:

>>45369428
Literally anything with a super effective move that can outspeed Dracovish can deal with it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 17:41:24 No.45370368 Report

Quoted By:

>>45368915
Jannies are pretty consisting in getting rid of people for a couple days if you report their wojakposting. Do your part to make /vp/ slightly better

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 20:53:58 No.45372057 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367884
Sleep Clause is bad. Either ban sleep or don't ban sleep instead of this complex bans featuring literal game mods.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Nov 2020 23:26:49 No.45373432 Report

Quoted By:

>>45367884
Sleep clause is bad.
Nobody is arguing that sleep shouldn't be banned. Just that it should either be banned altogether or not at all.

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