/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #53601844

HMs were bad but removing them is worse. They should have just improved them and removed all their downsides. Make it a 5th move or an attribute certain Pokemon can do, let you call Pokemon who are not in your party to perform them, or have shouldermons and other pokemon that are not in your party but just use HMs. SM fixed the mechanic but ruined the lore by letting you ride pokemon but not your own. There are so many great things they could have done but they are incompetent so it was easier just to remove them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 01:42:13 No.53601931 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
pokemmo's ocarinas are how HMs should've been done

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 02:00:41 No.53602017 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
The game deciding the type and moves of at least 1, usually 2 team members for you when it's supposed to be about catching and training whatever monsters you want is a bad thing, and always will be. HMs should've been removed earlier.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:02:33 No.53602280 Report

Quoted By: >>53602300 >>53602407

>>53601862
Hoenn had 8 too, in fact Hoenn had 3 water HMs to Sinnoh’s 2 and rock smash was an even weaker 20 BP if cut wasn’t already pathetic enough.
I think the main reason people hate HMs so much in Sinnoh and not as much in Gens 1-3 is because those games had the good sense to not lay them on you so fast. None of the games have any mandatory HM usage until after the 2nd gym or in hoenn’s case, 3rd gym. In Sinnoh tho you need rock smash really soon, before you’ve had much of a chance to even team build, and then cut comes shortly after. They handle it fairly well after that though, next mandatory HM is surf all the way after gym 5.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:04:51 No.53602289 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
hms like cut are bad, just replace it with axe or something
hms like surf/fly are okay

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:05:47 No.53602293 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
Making them unlearnable is the biggest fucking act of retardation in the series
>but muh softlo-
Add a Rescue Service to the phone that eats a chunk of your money and takes you to the previous pokecenter, no different from whiting out. This could've been added to gen2 ffs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:07:14 No.53602300 Report

Quoted By: >>53602326

>>53602280
Pretty sure this isn't correct because I remember you needing cut in bw right after the first gym

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:12:55 No.53602326 Report

Quoted By: >>53602345

>>53602300
I wasn’t counting anything after gen 4 because while you’re correct, BW also doesn’t require any HMs beyond that point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:15:59 No.53602345 Report

Quoted By: >>53602377

>>53602326
Thought that was wrong too but just checked and you're right, cut is the only required hm. That's nuts.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:25:48 No.53602377 Report

Quoted By: >>53606237

>>53602345
Yea it’s weird, they likely planned for HMs to have a larger presence but changed it following criticism of them in gen 4. Can’t think of any other reason they would be mandatory once at the beginning and then never again

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:27:41 No.53602383 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
>gen 4 OP
>HM cope
Of course, that's the only defining trait your games have

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:28:07 No.53602386 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
They sucked in gen 4, and needing Rock Smash for gen 3's Victory Road sucked, but every other instance of them was fine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 03:34:50 No.53602407 Report

Quoted By: >>53605858

>>53602280
You can just catch a water pokemon in GSC/RSE and give them all the water HMs. Sharpedo is my go-to because if you teach it Surf Dive Waterfall and Strength you have basically everything you need to navigate post-Lillycove and it does good damage with all of those. So while it's annoying at least you aren't gimping yourself completely like in DP where you have to dedicate multiple team slots to useless HM fodder like Bibarel or Quagsire or giving up valuable coverage moves on your Staraptor/Infernape

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 06:43:34 No.53603159 Report

Quoted By: >>53604084

>>53601844
They kind of add to immersion in an autistic "my Pokemon are helping me : )" way but I don't think they should be permanent. I get that's to prevent you from getting stranded somewhere and IDK how you'd go about accounting for that when programming if they were to do it differently, but if you're deliberately not playing with HM slaves it just kinda sucks to waste a whole moveslot like that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 13:25:01 No.53604084 Report

Quoted By:

>>53603159
there are ways to go about it in game design to make them not permanent, but yea that was the main point why it sucked

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 13:51:35 No.53604175 Report

Quoted By: >>53604183 >>53604285 >>53604309 >>53604393 >>53605593

>>53601926
I've been thinking they should have just made the shit ones decent battle moves. It's wild that only surf was decent for the majority of games.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 13:52:48 No.53604183 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604175
I forgot about strength.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:26:52 No.53604285 Report

Quoted By: >>53604305

>>53604175
Waterfall is pretty strong physical water move, that typing was lacking in moves of that kind before gen 7

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:32:00 No.53604305 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604285
I didn't mention waterfall because before the PS split it was strictly worse than surf and obtained after it too. Goldeen notwithstanding.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:33:04 No.53604309 Report

Quoted By: >>53604366

>>53604175
Just let the player delete the shit ones and everything is okay. Deleting Surf & Strength mid-use wouldn't make much sense, but you could easily just remove Cut from something's movepool as soon as you're done with it. And make trees never respawn.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:47:03 No.53604366 Report

Quoted By: >>53604378 >>53604723

>>53604309
What if the PC had a move deleter/move tutor?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:48:57 No.53604378 Report

Quoted By: >>53604415

>>53604366
Why would it need a move tutor?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:52:30 No.53604393 Report

Quoted By: >>53604426 >>53604464 >>53604666

>>53604175
>Rock smash - 60Bp always drops enemy defense 2 stages
>Cut - Steel - 60Bp clears away hazards on the field and raises Atk by 1 stage
>Strength - Rock - 80Bp - Moves last, forces opponent to switch out
>Rock Climb - Ground - 90Bp 95Acc - Hits Flying and Levitating targets for SE damage
>Defog - slap the BP and secondary effect of Clear Smog on top of it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:56:04 No.53604415 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604378
For moves like surf and dive where you could get stuck if you deleted them in the field. You could delete a different move then fix it once you get back to a PC.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 14:58:23 No.53604426 Report

Quoted By: >>53604442 >>53604458

>>53604393
>cut - steel
>it's used to cut small trees
>not bug type
fucking trash, kill yourself

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:01:58 No.53604442 Report

Quoted By: >>53604496

>>53604426
NTA, I'd like Cut to be bug-typed Slash.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:05:05 No.53604458 Report

Quoted By: >>53604521 >>53604522 >>53604531

>>53604426
>move based on a sword skill
>bug type
You're a fucking retard

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:07:59 No.53604464 Report

Quoted By: >>53604491 >>53604526

>>53604393
>Rock smash - 60Bp always drops enemy defense 2 stages
Jesus Christ dude you should make the moves usable not broken beyond belief.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:15:11 No.53604491 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604464
Fine 1 stage

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:16:28 No.53604496 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604442
We already have X-Scissor.
The correct option would be to just give Cut's functionality to every existing cutting/slashing move.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:20:14 No.53604518 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
>Carry over the Legends/SV style "free move relearner outside battle" mechanic
>When you receive a HM, the associated move appears in the movepools of all eligible Pokémon; you can use it in the field with that Pokémon even if it's not in one of their four moveslots.
>Add icons to the bottom of the Pokémon status screen like a wing, a wave etc. to show which HMs a Pokémon is compatible with. They only appear after you have the HM in question.

If done this way, you could potentially fold HMs into badges (and the TM that gym leaders hand out).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:20:42 No.53604521 Report

Quoted By: >>53604527

>>53604458
it's used to cut grass and trees only, make sense for it to bug type, you utter nigger

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:20:47 No.53604522 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604458
I was going to give you shit for the games only describing it as using claws or scythes but I looked up the japanese name before I made a fool out of myself.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:21:44 No.53604526 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604464
this is the reason why romhacks don't help with pokemon's balance issues, they always make shit 10x times worse

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:21:46 No.53604527 Report

Quoted By: >>53604553

>>53604521
The nip name is literally a sword technique you triple nigger

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:22:17 No.53604531 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604458
JP name is "Iai Giri" (quickdraw slash) so maybe something like
>If this move goes last it's an automatic crit
or
>This move uses Atk in place of Spd and vice versa
in order to teach new players about how crits and speed work

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:25:18 No.53604553 Report

Quoted By: >>53604573

>>53604527
means nothing, you chimp
rock climb has same function as waterfall climb, yet it's normal type, instead of rock
shut the fuck up and kill yourself trannoid
false swipe is called mineuchi in japan, yet it's normal type rather than steel
seriously, kill yourself now and never come back

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:31:01 No.53604573 Report

Quoted By: >>53604606

>>53604553
>nuh uh my retarded decision is fine because GF also makes retarded decisions
Take your own advice and stop wasting oxygen

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:35:15 No.53604589 Report

Quoted By: >>53604599

>>53601844
HMs were always a shit mechanic and thank god they're dead and gone. They should have made them key items like they originally intended to where they don't waste move slots or make you tote around an HM slave.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:36:58 No.53604599 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604589
>waste move slots
>NOOOO EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE PERFECTLY OPTIMAL OR IT'S WRONG!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:37:32 No.53604606 Report

Quoted By: >>53604666

>>53604573
Nta but
>That’s retarded because it doesn’t match it’s Japanese name (given by gamefreak)
>Gamefreak isn’t consistent about that either tho
>W-well just because gamefreak does retarded shit too doesnt make it not retarded!!
Your entire argument for it being retarded in the first place rested on it’s inconsistency with something gamefreak did, do you have the memory of a goldfish or something?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:45:31 No.53604645 Report

Quoted By: >>53604682 >>53606242

Cut - Make it a TM add functionality to all claw/cutting moves.
Fly - It's decent enough I don't give a shit
Surf - Leave it alone it's a good move
Strength - Good move, who gives a shit
Flash - SpA + Speed Up, or delete it fuck flash I wander blindly through every cave I hate it so much
Whirlpool - It's already been buffed and doesn't seem too terrible albeit very niche. Maybe just like 50BP 90% accuracy?
Waterfall - good move
Rock Smash - Rock type Brick Break or maybe just ignores enemy def increases. Alternatively just Go to 60 BP and make the 50% chance def down an always deal.
Defog - No idea
Rock Climb - It's already passable maybe just a type change so it doesn't step on Strength's toes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:49:36 No.53604666 Report

Quoted By: >>53605806

>>53604606
My argument for it being retarded in the first place is because he sperged out over >>53604393 making it a steel type move and insisted on it being bug type instead, despite the name.
If it wasn't named after a fucking sword skill I could agree on it being a bug move, but he just had to be an angry fucking spastic about it and tried to justify bug being more fitting than steel.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 15:54:46 No.53604682 Report

Quoted By: >>53605869

>>53604645
>Defog - No idea
Defog is fine, it's used competitively.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 16:01:02 No.53604711 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
Yes. But they should have been adapted to moves to do same shit in overworld.
Like any flame throwing move should burn and any fighting attack should break rocks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 16:03:03 No.53604723 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604366
Like it is now in sv?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 19:11:39 No.53605593 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604175
Cut—it's just Bug-type Slash
Fly—it's just Flying-type Extremespeed with more PP
Surf—was good to begin with, but give it a 30% flinch chance for good measure
Strength—it's just Fighting-type Headbutt, plus it raises the user's Attack one stage
Flash—99% accuracy, 33% chance each of flinching, confusing, or lowering the opponent's accuracy by two stages
Whirlpool—traps the opponent, 30% chance per hit to confuse
Waterfall—it's just Water-type Extremespeed with more PP, plus it has a 10% flinch rate and raises the relevant attacking stat by one stage

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 19:54:11 No.53605806 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604666
>If it wasn't named after a fucking sword skill I could agree on it being a bug move
NTA; it should be Bug type because a decent Bug move existing would've done more to balance Psychic types than Dark ever did, especially if it bypassed Reflect.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 20:03:38 No.53605858 Report

Quoted By:

>>53602407
>useless
>Bibarel or Quagsire
You don’t actually play the games

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 20:07:33 No.53605868 Report

Quoted By: >>53606215

the only problem with HMs is
>HM slaves being a necessity to progress
which ties in with the other problem
>Some moves (Cut, Rock Smash, etc.) are fucking awful in battle

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 20:07:51 No.53605869 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604682
But is useless in game. And in game is always more important than competitive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 21:11:21 No.53606215 Report

Quoted By:

>>53605868
>needing a full rack of six fighters to beat the solo campaign
skill issue

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 21:16:31 No.53606237 Report

Quoted By:

>>53602377
>Can’t think of any other reason they would be mandatory once at the beginning and then never again
It teaches the player how to use HMs. If you didn't have at least one use a new player might not know how to use them (train pokemon -> use move)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Apr 2023 21:16:56 No.53606242 Report

Quoted By:

>>53604645
>Defog - No idea
neutralizes all field conditions like spikes, weather, reflect, everything and resets all pokemons' accuracy and evasion to +0
it still wouldn't be super useful in the campaign because GF can't into enemy AI but it'd be busted in PvP

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 00:22:36 No.53607049 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844
just don't make them all the same type and make them actual usable moves

Anonymous

View Same Google ImgOps iqdb SauceNAO 35A185DE-C0AD-485D-B20C-07101AD1 (...).png, 9KiB, 255x302

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 00:48:13 No.53607197 Report

Quoted By:

>>53601844

They only needed one change:
HM Move Slot

Other ideas for Switch HMs:
Limit the game to 6 HMs.
3 types can use each HM.
You can change the HM being used in the move slot if not actively being used (i.e. surf).
Remove waterfall, whirlpool, and dive.
Surf handles water.
Strength handles boulders, rock smash, and climbing.
Fly handles flying and jumping high.
Cut can cut more things.
Flash provides limited light. Can also be used at night to get certain Pokémon to appear.
Sweet Scent wakes up or lures road block Pokémon out of the way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 01:09:00 No.53607295 Report

Quoted By: >>53607465 >>53607483 >>53607643

>>53601844
>muh moveslots
I never understood this criticism. 99% of the Pokemon you use in a playthrough only need 1 or 2 moveslots for whatever you're using them for, the rest are interchangeable filler

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 01:40:22 No.53607465 Report

Quoted By:

>>53607295
99% of the Pokemon you catch aren't even going to be using all 4 slots anyway. Most things learn STAB and a couple variations of Tackle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 01:41:20 No.53607468 Report

Quoted By: >>53607478

>>53601844
They were always retarded from day 1.
>Cut exists instead of just being an item
>Flash exists instead of just being an item
>Literal toddlers seen swimming but somehow your character can't learn to swim

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 01:43:09 No.53607478 Report

Quoted By:

>>53607468
It is there to show Pokemon are usefull

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 01:43:49 No.53607483 Report

Quoted By:

>>53607295
Move slots aren’t why HMs are a problem.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 02:12:02 No.53607643 Report

Quoted By: >>53607895

>>53607295
The problem isn't that the individual moveslots are important, it's that they shouldn't take away any amount of control of the team from the player in a game that's about choosing what you catch and train.
If the game says I get a team of 6 pokemon that know 24 moves, I should get to choose those, not 5 pokemon and 16 moves while the game decides the rest based on random restrictions to progression.

Imagine if in the next games they made it impossible to remove your starter from the team. Sure, you can build a team with 5 pokemon easily, but people would understandably be annoyed. On a lesser level, that is similar to what HMs do by setting 4-8 if your moveslots.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 10 Apr 2023 02:58:28 No.53607895 Report

Quoted By:

>>53607643
>Imagine if in the next games they made it impossible to remove your starter from the team.
People would buy it anyway.

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