/vp/ - Pokémon » Thread #54271214

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 07:01:53 No.54271214 View View Reply Original Report

>O-Onix has 45 base attack because it's meant to be the first boss!
Explain Roark then

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 07:03:38 No.54271219 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
Like 7 games later Anon
RGBY were literally the first so no one knew what the fuck Pokemon waa

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 07:04:35 No.54271222 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
Sinnoh Privilege, (nearly) everything is overpowered in Sinnoh.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 07:05:37 No.54271229 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
imagine if someone put this fight in yellow and made you fight it with only pikachu

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 07:08:40 No.54271238 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
Roark is the first gym leader in Sinnoh.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 08:03:59 No.54271374 Report

Quoted By:

Sinnoh makes you go through a ton of places before your first badge and gives you water and grass types to deal with him.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:14:54 No.54271531 Report

Quoted By: >>54277211

>>54271214
No STAB move though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:16:07 No.54271537 Report

Quoted By: >>54271538 >>54271541 >>54271553 >>54271972 >>54273931 >>54276751

Isn't Cranidos like a glass canon? Like a lvl 14 turtwig's absorb one shots it.
Atleast Onix saw competitive play.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:17:10 No.54271538 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271537
>compfag
*yawn*

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:17:24 No.54271541 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271537
kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:22:41 No.54271553 Report

Quoted By: >>54272076

>>54271537
Fossil Pokemon being weak is something that needs to be buckbroken.

And I will be the one who breaks the buck with my own personal ROM hack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:23:48 No.54271557 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
You had access to like 5-6 routes and Mt. Coronet before the first gym in Sinnoh vs. 3 routes featuring Veridian Forest with shitty Caterpie and Weedle in Kanto

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:24:42 No.54271560 Report

Quoted By: >>54271569 >>54271576 >>54272109

>>54271214
That logic never made sense, Pokemon wasn't like Dragon Quest or something, you're capable of catching and using any of the mons you see through the game so they shouldn't be shit.
In fact, since Onix is the first boss, it was fine if he got to be a credible threat being tanky as fuck AND hitting moderately hard. At least 80 attack, about the same as Machop, and Onix was a one-stage mon with crippling double weaknesses, slow and with a low special defense. No reason it shouldn't smash hard when it gets his turn to act.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:31:28 No.54271569 Report

Quoted By: >>54271579

>>54271560
Onix having something that resembles an attacking stat would buckbreak /vp/ so I'm all for it. Really, any Pokemon with two double-weaknesses should have something to drastically make up for it as long it's not a legendary or mythical.

I want the detractors, naysayers, and shitposters on /vp/ to be excessively buckbroken to the point being buckbroken won't even begin to describe the absolute breakdown they have to endure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:34:41 No.54271576 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271560
>Pokemon wasn't like Dragon Quest or something
it was in gen 1

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:34:43 No.54271577 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
When they say boss, they mean it was literally designed as a boss monster first.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:35:03 No.54271579 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271569
Based

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:47:45 No.54271602 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
that argument is and aways was gay

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 11:53:21 No.54271972 Report

Quoted By: >>54272104 >>54273267

>>54271537
>Atleast Onix saw competitive play.
onix has never seen competitive play outside little cup

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:29:52 No.54272076 Report

Quoted By: >>54272360

>>54271553
Fossil mons are generally decent it's just Sinnoh's are awful. At least Tyrantrum is solid to balance out Aurorous being dogshit in gen 6.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:31:06 No.54272079 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
Onix is now a mook and the boss is 125 base Atk Base mon

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:36:43 No.54272104 Report

Quoted By: >>54272153

>>54271972
Nintendo cup 1997 get fucked retard

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:37:44 No.54272109 Report

Quoted By: >>54275067

>>54271560
Don't forget that his catch rate is even worse than a Rayquaza. His catch rate at 1 hp with sleep status is 30%.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:37:48 No.54272110 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
This gimmick had an easy solution. Give onix normal stats but hard code brock's ai to spam bide turning his onix into a puzzle boss.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:48:27 No.54272153 Report

Quoted By:

>>54272104
not seeing it

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 13:01:05 No.54272229 Report

Quoted By: >>54272249 >>54276435

Just because Onix is gigantic doesn't mean that it can apply that weight to its power considering how slow it canonically is. If a guy slowly push a boulder at the shoulder of a different guy, that guy isn't going to explode in a mist of gore, he's just going to get a scratched shoulder. Onix's attack stat is 100% logical and realistic. The anime got it right; Onix had to wrap around Pikachu and squeeze in order to do minor damage over time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 13:04:41 No.54272249 Report

Quoted By:

>>54272229
Onix is faster than a pikachu

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 13:05:24 No.54272252 Report

Quoted By: >>54273193

>>54271214
Roark... is also the first boss? Are you stupid OP?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 13:35:41 No.54272360 Report

Quoted By:

>>54272076
>Aurorous being dogshit
And it doesn't have to be like this shit either.

The trope of sauropods being weak can go fuck itself and die in a hole to get pissed on.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 16:24:56 No.54273193 Report

Quoted By:

>>54272252
are you retarded? how do you navigate basic english conversations irl?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 16:26:27 No.54273206 Report

Quoted By: >>54273843 >>54273852

>>54271214
>Pokemon fans discover powercreep

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 16:37:25 No.54273267 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271972
1997 tournament, dumbfuck

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 16:54:33 No.54273374 Report

Quoted By: >>54273852

>>54271214
Power creep, plain and simple. In gen 1, Rock type was designed to be a defensive powerhouse by the simple virtue of resisting Normal moves. This is especially powerful in the earlygame where most monsters are still weak and you have to dig deep (or just powerlevel your starter) to learn attacking moves that aren't Normal and can potentially hit Rock types super effectively, or in the case of Onix, hit it on its much weaker Special side (as even Charmander's Ember makes short work of it despite the disadvantage in type).
By gen 4, Pokemon move learnsets had changed drastically and the entire role of Rock type was shifting from an useful defensive type (which was made obsolete by nearly everything getting better and better coverage moves that they didn't need mixed attacking stats for as per the special/physical split) to a strong offensive one, with access to moves like Stone Edge, along with new support moves like Stealth Rock (which for some reason literally everything learned off the TM) and Rock Polish. And so accordingly Roark's strategy is setting up Stealth Rocks and then trying to mow your team down with an overwhelmingly powerful team anchor that both has a strong neutrally hitting attack (Headbutt) and a move to take care of any Gastly, plus try and take advantage of any switching the player may try in Pursuit as a double whammy on top of SR weakening the incoming monster.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 17:49:23 No.54273843 Report

Quoted By:

>>54273206
no first boss since has ever hit as hard as Roark's Cranidos. where'd the power creep go after 2006?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 17:50:46 No.54273852 Report

Quoted By: >>54273884

>>54273206
>>54273374
onix was always a letdown unless you were going out of your way to use a shitmon against it
nice revisionist history

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 17:54:35 No.54273884 Report

Quoted By: >>54273919

>>54273852
You probably never lost to Roark, either. It's the first major boss fight of the game, dude.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 17:57:07 No.54273908 Report

Quoted By:

The only time brock was ever a challenge was in yellow if you missed the mankey encounters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 17:58:09 No.54273919 Report

Quoted By: >>54273957

>>54273884
>yes, i did try to use my freshly caught metapod against brock, how could you tell?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 17:59:45 No.54273931 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271537
even with max spa investment, it's not guaranteed to even two shot and cranidos will always be way faster. enjoy getting headbutt flinched :)

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:02:30 No.54273957 Report

Quoted By: >>54273961

>>54273919
Whom quoth?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:02:55 No.54273961 Report

Quoted By: >>54273968

>>54273957
How new are you?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:03:38 No.54273968 Report

Quoted By: >>54273979

>>54273961
>merely pretending

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:05:13 No.54273979 Report

Quoted By: >>54274162

>>54273968
Answer the question.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:09:24 No.54274008 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
In Brock’s case, the ONLY Grass and Rock Pokémon you can get are Bulbasaur or Squirtle. And there aren’t any Fighting or Ground Pokémon available yet.
In Roark’s, you have access to Turtwig/Piplup, an alternative in Budew/Psyduck, and Machop, both wild and trade, which completely shits over his team.
There are also more training spots in Roark’s gym and the Pokémon at the mine are Rock-types as well. Brock only has Route 22 and Viridian Forest, neither of which have Rock types.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:15:36 No.54274071 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
List of pokemon capable of hitting Onix super effectively in gen 1, assuming you aren't severely overlevelling
>Bulbasaur
>Squirtle
>Nidoran but only if you're playing Yellow

List of pokemon capable of hitting Cranidos super effectively in DP, assuming you aren't severely overlevelling
>Turtwig
>Monferno
>Piplup
>Budew
>Psyduck
>Machop
>Geodude, if you overlevel by one level
>Anything if you get lucky with Hidden Power
>Beautifly if you're playing Platinum

You have a significantly larger pool of options for Roark, which is why they gave him a significantly stronger team.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 18:23:50 No.54274162 Report

Quoted By:

>>54273979
I have the urge to answer with "you first", but really, I don't even know where you're going with this shit. Brock is ultimately an easy fight because the tool to defeat him is given to you in the first two minutes of gameplay, but it's still worth thinking about the game design decisions behind his team and what sort of challenge it presents. Roark is in a similar position, an early gym leader boss fight who uses Rock-type Pokemon, but because of the iterative differences between gen 1 and gen 4, the design of the fight is flipped on its head. It's no longer about finding moves that are effective against bulky Rock/Ground monsters, it's about circumventing a far more specific battle strategy (Stealth Rock + a Pokemon that hits like a truck). There's absolutely no worth in bringing in shit like "duhhh the first boss of the game is easy, why don't you try something besides Metapod". Like no shit, that's specifically what the game asks you to do. Dumbass.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 20:15:18 No.54275022 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
He got that dawg in him

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 20:23:40 No.54275067 Report

Quoted By:

>>54272109
That's just ridiculous. Even more reason 'the first boss', a giant rock snake, should be fucking strong. It IS a rare pokemon with no evolution, I don't think he's part of the 'shitty common mons' like Geodude, Zubat, Rattata or Pidgey, there's zero logic in the reasoning to nerf his attack.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 23:26:42 No.54276359 Report

Quoted By: >>54276500

>>54271214
Lvl 14 0 Atk Monferno Mach Punch vs. Lvl 14 0 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 24-30 (51 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 14 0 Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Headbutt vs. Lvl 14 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 17-20 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 14 0 SpA Piplup Bubble vs. Lvl 14 0 HP / 0 SpD Cranidos: 24-30 (51 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 14 0 Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Headbutt vs. Lvl 14 0 HP / 0 Def Piplup: 16-19 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Lvl 14 0 Atk Turtwig Razor Leaf vs. Lvl 14 0 HP / 0 Def Cranidos: 30-36 (63.8 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 14 0 Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Headbutt vs. Lvl 14 0 HP / 0 Def Turtwig: 14-17 (32.5 - 39.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO

go be stupid somewhere else

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 23:36:50 No.54276435 Report

Quoted By:

>>54272229
>slow pokemon can't be strong

nice logic. not that onix is even slow. how about you take the weight of a boulder dropping down from the force of gravity alone and tell me how weak it feels

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 23:47:40 No.54276500 Report

Quoted By: >>54276577

>>54276359
>only counter to getting headbutt flinched is mach punch crit
damn...

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Aug 2023 23:58:33 No.54276564 Report

Quoted By:

Hooj difference.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:00:04 No.54276577 Report

Quoted By: >>54276604

>>54276500
headbutt will only threaten to flinch piplup and turtwig. and if you do get flinched just use a potion. and if you don't use items just have pokemon other than your starter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:05:06 No.54276604 Report

Quoted By: >>54276689 >>54276704

>>54276577
>just have pokemon other than your starter
this alone makes the fight require more investment than the vast majority of other boss fights, just like brock in yellow. with turtwig and piplup, you need to pray it uses leer twice or you have a decent chance of losing. the chimchar bias is real

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:18:07 No.54276689 Report

Quoted By: >>54276771

>>54276604
calcs above don't include EVs which your starter will have making them stronger anyways. and if the player is running solo piplup or turtwig they'll be higher than lv14 unless they're actively avoiding most battles.
solo lv14 starter with 0 EVs is the worst case scenario where the AI has to pick headbutt instead of leer/pursuit and has to flinch and the player has to choose not to use items for some reason.
most kids will get through roark just fine, be realistic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:21:14 No.54276704 Report

Quoted By: >>54276771 >>54277211

Roark has no stab, Cranidos has shit defenses, 2/3 starters nuke it in 2 hits and the 3rd has priority, you can easily have a shinx with intimidate because sinnoh has no pokemon so everyone runs shinx, etc.
>>54276604
i like how you focus on that last bit of anons post as if the game doesnt shower you in potions
>this fight is really hard but only if you get flich haxed twice in a row and only if you dont use items, then you need to take out your whole other pokemon making it insanely difficult
if someone is only running a single pokemon then they're gonna shit on cranidos anyways because of level difference.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:32:04 No.54276751 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271537
Cranidos really isn't that frail early game, the mono rock typing and base 67 HP means it can take a few hits before going down.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:37:35 No.54276771 Report

Quoted By:

>>54276689
>>54276704
EVs will barely affect anything at that low a level, maybe it'll make 2hko ranges slightly more favorable at best. a 30% flinch chance on 2 rolls is pretty likely to happen and cranidos will outspeed you without priority
a playthrough with only your starter and no grinding just makes it to cranidos at 14. extra grinding and using potions and items in battle make most difficulty discussion pointless lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 00:46:16 No.54276813 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XRd8Yz90Jc&t=63s
Lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 01:52:28 No.54277211 Report

Quoted By:

>>54276704
>>54271531
>no STAB
retarded argument because 70bp is basically the same as STAB rock throw

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 02:01:12 No.54277266 Report

Quoted By:

>>54271214
Power creep gen

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Aug 2023 02:22:28 No.54277382 Report

Quoted By:

Cranidos is slpw as shit. It and its evolution are such shitmons it is had to use them in game, I think the last time I tried using it I ended boxing it and replacing with a Rhydon

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